Self Harm

Naikon · 14-05-2011 11:06AM

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

What illnesses do you think are bogus?

And genetic traits can cause various illnesses. Why would you think mental illness is any different?

I could probably fake ADHD simply by appearing to be "sick". I cannot fake a real disease like cancer though. Any "Mental Disorder" lacking a clear pathology does not exist as far as I am concerned.

Micky Dolenz · 14-05-2011 11:08AM

Naikon wrote: »

I could probably fake ADHD. I cannot fake a real disease like cancer though. Any "Mental Disorder" lacking a hard diagnosis does not exist as far as I am concerned.

you really need to go and educate yourself. Would you say something like that in public?

TaraFoxglove · 14-05-2011 11:13AM

Naikon wrote: »

I could probably fake ADHD simply by appearing to be "sick". I cannot fake a real disease like cancer though. Any "Mental Disorder" lacking a clear pathology does not exist as far as I am concerned.

ADHD has probably been over-diagnosed but I have no doubt it exists.

Clear pathology? That's all fine and well, but understanding the human brain is still in its embryonic stages so a clear pathology is a long way off. There's still not a 100% understanding of what causes clinical depression, for example. Certain neurotransmitters have been implicated but there's not much concrete evidence out there for that. Do you think clinical depression doesn't exist?

g'em · 14-05-2011 11:13AM

Calling self-harm "attention seeking" is as inaccurate as saying that people with depression need to just cop on and get on with life. The majority of people who self harm will do everything in their power to hide what they're doing, not display it to the world for all to see and be judged on it.

TaraFoxglove · 14-05-2011 11:15AM

g'em wrote: »

Calling self-harm "attention seeking" is as inaccurate as saying that people with depression need to just cop on and get on with life. The majority of people who self harm will do everything in their power to hide what they're doing, not display it to the world for all to see and be judged on it.

+10000000

Naikon · 14-05-2011 11:17AM

g'em wrote: »

Calling self-harm "attention seeking" is as inaccurate as saying that people with depression need to just cop on and get on with life. The majority of people who self harm will do everything in their power to hide what they're doing, not display it to the world for all to see and be judged on it.

Self harm is mostly a precursor to suicide. It "could" be for attention seeking purposes in a minority of cases.

Naikon · 14-05-2011 11:23AM

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

ADHD has probably been over-diagnosed but I have no doubt it exists.

Clear pathology? That's all fine and well, but understanding the human brain is still in its embryonic stages so a clear pathology is a long way off. There's still not a 100% understanding of what causes clinical depression, for example. Certain neurotransmitters have been implicated but there's not much concrete evidence out there for that. Do you think clinical depression doesn't exist?

Where are the tests? Simply observing someone and claiming they have a "disorder" based on subjective observation is not enough in my mind. Your second argument is akin to a religious person stating god exists simply because we don't understand how or why the universe came about. We can observe "Gods hand" simply by looking at nature or whatever. Jumping the gun by inventing illnesses seems very...unscientific to me. For instance, chemical imbalance theory is undisputed fiction. Social labels are not diseases, no matter how much your Psychology Lecturer tells you otherwise...

g'em · 14-05-2011 11:26AM

Naikon wrote: »

Self harm is mostly a precursor to suicide. It "could" be for attention seeking purposes in a minority of cases.

I'd argue quite the opposite. Self-harm is about coping, not ending your life. It's a physical manifestation of emotional pain and using that pain to distract from or avoid emotional trauma, a kind of pain transference. And sure, in a *minority* of cases it *might* be attention seeking but my point is that the majority aren't, and it the majority who suffer under the stereotypes of misleading public perception.

Naikon · 14-05-2011 11:30AM

g'em wrote: »

I'd argue quite the opposite. Self-harm is about coping, not ending your life. It's a physical manifestation of emotional pain and using that pain to distract from or avoid emotional trauma, a kind of pain transference. And sure, in a *minority* of cases it *might* be attention seeking but my point is that the majority aren't, and it the majority who suffer under the stereotypes of misleading public perception.

Fair enough. I am wrong on this count. My own very limited experiences of people self harming do not represent the majority. It's a very broad label.

TaraFoxglove · 14-05-2011 11:42AM

Naikon wrote: »

Where are the tests? Simply observing someone and claiming they have a "disorder" based on subjective observation is not enough in my mind. Your second argument is akin to a religious person stating god exists simply because we don't understand how or why the universe came about. We can observe "Gods hand" simply by looking at nature or whatever. Jumping the gun by inventing illnesses seems very...unscientific to me. For instance, chemical imbalance theory is undisputed fiction. Social labels are not diseases, no matter how much your Psychology Lecturer tells you otherwise...

All that is fine... but people do experience mental anguish, sometimes outside their control, and it simply can't be ignored just because it can't be shown what is causing it.

Naikon · 14-05-2011 11:44AM

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

All that is fine... but people do experience mental anguish, sometimes outside their control, and it simply can't be ignored just because it can't be shown what is causing it.

Never said people do not experience "mental anguish". That does not mean it's ethical to lump certain "mental anguish" in with real diseases. Fraud in my book.

TaraFoxglove · 14-05-2011 11:48AM

Naikon wrote: »

Never said people do not experience "mental anguish". That does not mean it's ethical to lump certain "mental anguish" in with real diseases. Fraud in my book.

But that mental anguish might be a future quantifiable illness, it's just a shame that because there is no clear pathology NOW that people just have to get on with things.

Naikon · 14-05-2011 11:51AM

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

But that mental anguish might be a future quantifiable illness, it's just a shame that because there is no clear pathology NOW that people just have to get on with things.

Exactly. That is the point I am trying to make. Listing ADHD as a "disorder" should only be done when there is sufficient evidence to do so. That is not the case today, however. Money makes the world go round. Very religious to state something as is, without any hard evidence. Not science imo.

Wibbs · 14-05-2011 12:24PM

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

I don't think people are "so sure". They're just pointing out that there's probably no way to say the level wasn't as high 50 years ago. We'll never know but we DO know that mental illness was massively stigmatised so we can theorise that these things might have been much more common than reported.

Well we could look at the figures for those presenting and in the case of cutting self harm we could trawl the autopsy records to see if there is a percentage with scars that could be linked to the practice. I am certainly not suggesting that the stigma doesn't have a big effect, but there does seem to be an overall increase in the condition.

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

And genetic traits can cause various illnesses. Why would you think mental illness is any different?

I would think that genetics increase the tendency in a population, but the environment triggers it. Again like obesity and type 2 diabetes. There's not really a "fat bastard" gene as such, but clearly some people are more prone to putting on weight. In a different environment they wouldn't or have significantly less weight. I would say similar of various mental illnesses*. Another example; alcoholism. There is talk about that being genetic yet the rates of alcoholism and alcohol abuse have notably risen in Ireland in the last 20 years. Other cultures have far less problem with it and others may have more. Genetically we're the same pretty much. Humans being very inbred as a species. Genetic component yet rise/drop in frequency = environment. I am simply suggesting that some mental conditions follow the same trend and that cutting is one of them.

I am not suggesting that this demeans those who suffer, but it may help target potential sufferers and treatments if we look at that. Rather than treat mental illness as a sacred cow and be defensive about it. And that is more and more the case. Thank god the stigma has been eroded and it needs more erosion but IMHO the pendulum has overswung the other way.

*With the exceptions of schizophrenia and bipolar.

metrovelvet · 14-05-2011 12:47PM

^ Nearly impossible to tell. Abuse patterns and environment growing up can change your biology, so it may appear genetic because its biological, but it was behavior which changed your biology. I'm not sure I buy the whole inheriting it throough the genes, smacks of phrenology.

Your example of alcoholism is interesting. Genetically different races have different responses to it. The Native Americans cant process it and get hooked very quickly. But this is a tricky example because alcoholism can be a symptom of a mental illness, depression, self hatred, or can be a disease in itself.

Saila · 14-05-2011 12:55PM

a girl I went to secondary school with cut herself, and the weird thing was she showed others and bragged about it nearly... when most people who cut hide them dont they :confused
and sometimes she would dip her fingers in boiling water too

Wibbs · 14-05-2011 02:27PM

Saila wrote: »

a girl I went to secondary school with cut herself, and the weird thing was she showed others and bragged about it nearly... when most people who cut hide them dont they :confused

I was going to mention this. For all the talk of secrecy I've had more self harmers tell me they cut themselves than didn't.

That's a sample rate if one though. Mise.

wild_cat · 14-05-2011 02:31PM

Saila wrote: »

a girl I went to secondary school with cut herself, and the weird thing was she showed others and bragged about it nearly... when most people who cut hide them dont they :confused
and sometimes she would dip her fingers in boiling water too

Living the stereotype there...

Isn't there a general rule of thumb that even if it is a biological trait that once it stops you from normal functioning its seen as an illness.

flyaway. · 14-05-2011 02:38PM

I was a self harmer from the age of 12 to about 16. It started off lightly but did turn into serious cutting as the years went on. It was for various reasons really (mostly home related)- it was just really addictive and was always the first thing my mind went to when something went wrong.

I decided it was getting too far though as my mind was thinking of doing more serious things (taking my own life) and finally started seeing a therapist and a psychiatrist when I was 16. I haven't self harmed in over two years now.

Nobody in my life ever noticed it and I was always really careful to hide it. I REALLY hate when people say ''they're doing it for attention'' or whatever because most try extremely hard to keep it a secret. I was really ashamed and was convinced people would be angry at me. Thankfully I got to tell my therapists though and of course they were trained to deal with it.

I told one guy when I was 16 and have regretted it ever since. All he did was make fun of me and used it as blackmail for ages. It didn't work though because I realized I didn't really care who he told because it was over me anyway and he would be the one telling someone's intimate secrets.

So yeah... that's my story. I am very very glad to be over that part of my life.

KnifeWRENCH · 14-05-2011 03:02PM

I've spoken about this on another thread, but may aswell say it here.

I've never self harmed. Thought about it many many times but never did it. And I view that as a bad thing; basically, I never did it because I'm too cowardly to deal with physical pain. I'm fully aware of how serious self-harm is and that it's not healthy to do it......yet a little voice in my head berates me for being too "chicken" to do it. It's twisted logic and very healthy. But then again, I'm not exactly a "healthy" person.

Stuff like getting drunk by myself and smoking a lot (which only ever happens when I'm drunk) is about the closest to self harm I've gotten. That happened a lot last year, during a very bleak period when I felt really down.

Davei141 · 14-05-2011 03:09PM

Would the ways of which self harm manifest itself change within social and class circles? In working class areas Heavy substance abuse (Heroin) seem to be the preferred method of self harm, while in middle class it would be more alcohol/cocaine and cutting. Do people think that plays a factor?

stupidusername · 14-05-2011 03:30PM

g'em wrote: »

Calling self-harm "attention seeking" is as inaccurate as saying that people with depression need to just cop on and get on with life. The majority of people who self harm will do everything in their power to hide what they're doing, not display it to the world for all to see and be judged on it.

thank you for bringing this up. I feel that the more people say this is wrong the more will start accepting that depression can be really serious. hate this idea that still exists that it's about finding a hobby, or going out or going for a walk fixing things. It's not a mood, it's a place. I know the Depression thread that bogeyarsebogman started a while back has gone a little towards opening up the discussion a bit more but there's still so much to be done. it's probably more the older generation that will never consider it a problem, I know that even with my dad, sister and brother (even though my sister and brother have both been on anti depressants) it's such an awkward subject.

Naikon wrote: »

Self harm is mostly a precursor to suicide. It "could" be for attention seeking purposes in a minority of cases.

I think it is a step many take before they commit suicide, or attempt to, but definitely not a pre cursor. I've at my lowest points really considered suicide, but never really self harm. I never got that.

strokemyclover · 14-05-2011 03:37PM

This whole country has a self-harm complex!

Y'know, it's not normal to drink 10 pints in one day. Also, our passive attitude to how politicians/big business/EU are still fcuking us over emphasises the point that we, as a people, enjoy killing ourselves slowly.

How do we hold an intervention for an entire country?

starviewadams · 14-05-2011 04:04PM

I'm a self harmer,last time I had a episode of mania I woke up in hospital getting my arms stitched up after cutting pretty deeply with a razor blade apparently,don't recall doing it because I hadn't slept in days.I've also done it when I was aware of what I was doing,I feel a great release and relief for the first minute or two after cutting and then the shame and guilt kicks in.My psychologist says that many people do it as a means of coping.Can't wear T-shirts because of the scars on my arms which sucks when it's nice out.

Coriolanus · 14-05-2011 04:44PM

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

I personally think things like bulimia can fall under the self-harm category too.

Why "Needless to say"?

syklops wrote: »

How very supportive of you.

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

My thoughts exactly!

So you'd both maintain contact when an ex you hadn't spoken to in at least six months contacted you with the sole purpose of threatening to start cutting themselves if you didn't take them back? Normally I'd say kudos to so selfless a deed but I think the both of you are probably just masochistic in personality.
OR maybe your just judging somebody without knowing much more than absolutely nothing about the situation.

BickNarry · 14-05-2011 04:45PM

I'm gonna go out on a limb here cause this is the internet.

I did all that nonsense for years. No one really knows. One family member saw my arms once but it was never mentioned again. It's really embarressing and I could never,ever bring myself to talk about it to anyone.

I haven't worn a t-shirt in over 5 years. I don't fit the criteria for self harm so no one would expect it out of me. It's still difficult having to constantly cover up my arms and legs for fear of being 'found out'. It makes me dread summers. I'm kind of lucky in a way because i've psoriasis so I pretend that's why I cover up.

As far as the reasons for doing it? It's been long established that, much like eating disorders, it's got to do with control. When you lack control in every area of your life, you create a situtaion where you can exercise control.But it's a 'vicious circle' in the real sense because you can find yourself being triggered by small things and eventually it's a habit.

Looking at my arms and legs every morning fills me with shame. I'm too old for this.

TaraFoxglove · 14-05-2011 05:40PM

Nevore wrote: »

So you'd both maintain contact when an ex you hadn't spoken to in at least six months contacted you with the sole purpose of threatening to start cutting themselves if you didn't take them back? Normally I'd say kudos to so selfless a deed but I think the both of you are probably just masochistic in personality.
OR maybe your just judging somebody without knowing much more than absolutely nothing about the situation.

You didn't flesh your post out and worded it carelessly. So maybe you could word things differently in future?

Coriolanus · 14-05-2011 05:45PM

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

You didn't flesh your post out and worded it carelessly. So maybe you could word things differently in future?

Maybe ask for clarification before jumping to conclusions?

TaraFoxglove · 14-05-2011 05:51PM

Nevore wrote: »

Maybe ask for clarification before jumping to conclusions?

In a fairly serious thread, it might have been an idea not to sound so flippant in the first place.

Coriolanus · 14-05-2011 05:53PM

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

In a fairly serious thread, it might have been an idea not to sound so flippant in the first place.

Hi, welcome to AH.

Self Harm

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