Rosslare timetabling of trains... WTF!?!?

LXFlyer

What about passengers for Enniscorthy or Wexford?

Are you seriously suggesting that there are more potential foot passengers than might be on that train?

Losty Dublin

One of the 2011 editions of IRRS journal reported on how train movements from Rosslare were changed in and around the time of the Ash Cloud. In short, air travel was all but closed off so arrangements were made so that train departures were held back at Rosslare to co-incide with ferry arrivals to help deal with the anticipated multitudes expected off the boats; Bus Eireann also laid on extra capacity on the routes out of the port.

In spite of the departures being well flagged both at booking stage as well as at the port in Wales, the numbers who used the trains were poor and the bus services fared little better, so much so that the arrangements were discontinued after a few weeks. When I get in, I'll report the listed passenger loads but it clearly showed that people using the port won't consider rail or bus to even when it was there.

Vic_08

Hungerford wrote: »

My own suspicion is that a timetable could be worked out by making the 16:37 run earlier and the 18:38 run later from Dublin. If you can space out the trains properly, you could loop them with a departure from Rosslare at Wexford, Gorey and Wicklow without causing undue delay to anyone.

Except the commuters who would be unable to catch an advanced 16.37 and those whose journey home would be delayed by the later departure of the 18.38.

Fact is the commuter traffic from Dublin, even as far south as Enniscorthy and Wexford is far and away more numerous than any theoretical ferry foot passenger traffic and rightly should take priority.

I don't know where all this supposed demand for ferry connections from the Dublin region has come from, it was never a popular route for sea crossings from Leinster, in it's heyday it was mostly catering for traffic from the Waterford, Cork and Limerick areas not Dublin.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

One of the 2011 editions of IRRS journal reported on how train movements from Rosslare were changed in and around the time of the Ash Cloud. In short, air travel was all but closed off so arrangements were made so that train departures were held back at Rosslare to co-incide with ferry arrivals to help deal with the anticipated multitudes expected off the boats; Bus Eireann also laid on extra capacity on the routes out of the port.

In spite of the departures being well flagged both at booking stage as well as at the port in Wales, the numbers who used the trains were poor and the bus services fared little better, so much so that the arrangements were discontinued after a few weeks. When I get in, I'll report the listed passenger loads but it clearly showed that people using the port won't consider rail or bus to even when it was there.

Quite. Ash cloud aside my most regular number of bus passengers to the port on route 2 was zero. The only regular traffic south of Wexford was a small amount of locals for the villages en-route, most asking for Rosslare Harbour wanted the village and would have been less than amused had I taken them to the ferry terminal.

ArmaniJeanss

How does the poster Spad get perma-banned for 'spam'?

Whilst there may have been 1 or 2 other posts deleted that we can't see, there are clearly non-spammy posts remaining that look as if he wanted to engage on the issue.

Vic_08

Spad wrote: »

So why would that be, then? The Welsh Government is pro-rail because that's what Welsh people want. And every new rail investment has far exceeded its predicted usage.

Really? What was the predicted use of the silver service Wag-Ex then? Unless it was sweet-FA -1 then it most certainly has not exceeded expectations. A small fortune spent on running a full service restaurant train for the perusal of a certain senior politician who wished to occasionally use it, not to mention WAG-Air the same politician's publically funded air shuttle. Easy I suppose when you are using someone else's money, namely the English taxpayers'.

The Fishguard and Goodwick re-opening is a triumph of parish-pump politics, a scheme that wouldn't have a hope in hell of getting passed in other regions because the cost-benefit figures didn't come anywhere close. There are numerous other schemes across the UK where plans have stalled despite them having better figures than Fishguard but due to the WA having access to finances unavailable elsewhere this got done. Not really much to do with the topic but as you brought it up.

Closer to the topic perhaps you would like to explain how it is your supposedly pro sea-rail Welsh Assembly have allowed their rail franchisee to stick two fingers up to the users of the Dublin-Holyhead corridor for years by providing awful connections to and from the late sailings to the extent that passengers now have to endure a near 5 hour wait for a train going to anywhere they actually want.

Irish Steve

The Dublin Holyhead connections issue is simple, the Ferries and Rail used to carry a signifiant amount of Mail, so there was a train to take the mail which ran through to London, and it also carried passengers. When rail lost the mail, there wasn't the justification for the train.

I went over recently on the late ferry, ( Irish Ferries) and there were all of 20 foot passengers on the bus off the ferry, most of them then waited for the first train out at 04:50.

OK, off peak, but 20 passengers for a train at that time of the day is not going to raise much enthusiasm from any train operator. A lot of overnight trains were quietly cancelled when the Mail contract was moved to Air and road transport.

And yes, 4 hours in the terminal at Holyhead is not a lot of fun, but it was a better option for the overall timing of the trip.

corktina

what you should be thinking is that there were 20 passengers DESPITE years of IE discouraging this...an increase wouldn't happen overnight no doubt.

As for t'other side. I beleive Goodwick is being re-opened as there is a signifiacnt amount of passengers wanting to go there rather than the ferry terminal.An analogy might be made with re-opening the Waterford line with a proper timetable...

Without a doubt IE have strangled demand for rail services to RH and will continue to do so until such time as the buffer stop goes in at Wexford.

Grandeeod

corktina wrote: »

Without a doubt IE have strangled demand for rail services to RH and will continue to do so until such time as the buffer stop goes in at Wexford.

Absolutely. The most disappointing aspect is they were doing this while investment was pouring into the railway network. They actually spent money making RH unworkable.

I've noticed that we are returning to the "no money for investment" days and many use it to debunk possible improvements. Fair enough, but lets not forget the vast amount of money that was available to CIE in the boom days. Despite all that money, the have persisted with a decades old policy of running down certain routes. A leaf through IRRS journals from the 70s to the present provides damning evidence if one wishes to collect it all.

end of the road

lxflyer wrote: »

The ferry arrives at 1800. You would need to allow 15 minutes for passengers to get through the terminal and another 20 for everyone to make it across to the station. Therefore the earliest the train could leave is 18:35.

well had they not moved the station then it wouldn't take so long for the people to get from the terminal to the train but when you have a bunch of idiots running the railway thats what happens

lxflyer wrote: »

The only slots between Bray and Greystones each hour available for Rosslare services in either direction are when the DARTs are in Greystones, allowing for a few minutes using the split signal

so terminate a couple of those darts in bray, a couple of extra services to rosslare, selective door opening allowing 6 car trains, should be able to cope with the slack from greystones, a clockface dart on a single piece of track was always a recipe for disaster, it is restricting the growth of the rosslare line effecting towns like wexford, eniscorthy, goarey, arklow, wicklow, and so on which is not good enough in 2013 ireland, just like giving stopping services priority over non stoping services which was fine back in 1984/85 when the dart was introduced as their were very little other services however in 2013 ireland this no longer makes sense, but shur i'm wasting my time as irish rail don't have and never will care, all that money and very little to show for it, its sad.

LXFlyer

Terminating DARTs in Bray means a 60 minute gap in service to Greystones in at least one direction. That is far from ideal

corktina

end of the road wrote: »

well had they not moved the station then it wouldn't take so long for the people to get from the terminal to the train but when you have a bunch of idiots running the railway thats what happens

exactly my point about IE strangling RH. There was a time when the trian was right next to the ship

LXFlyer

The station move (which I lament as much as anyone here) as I understand it was down to the gardai/customs insisting post 9/11 that the post-check in area become a completely secure area and not breached by the railway line as it was.

I don't think it's necessarily fair to blame IE entirely for this one.

LXFlyer

As for the clock face DART timetable preventing new trains from operating to/from Rosslare, it doesn't. It just constrains when they can operate.

The main underlying factor is cost - that's why the Arklow services finished - not enough people were using them.

As I said above - it's perfectly possible to operate a train at 1915 from Rosslare, but that means a 7.5 hour gap in service for a far greater number of domestic passengers, and without an extra rain being added to bridge the gap would probably yield less passengers overall than more due to it being too late.

Losty Dublin

lxflyer wrote: »

The station move (which I lament as much as anyone here) as I understand it was down to the gardai/customs insisting post 9/11 that the post-check in area become a completely secure area and not breached by the railway line as it was.

I don't think it's necessarily fair to blame IE entirely for this one.

It wasn't the reason though that is an valuable added benefit of the current station location. The port is due a radical expansion so the station was moved to it's new location both to assist safer car access into the port area and to facilitate the redevelopment of the old station site. There are plans for an expanded station complex when the port moves into the Lo Lo marine freight market; this will include facility for rail freight. As it stands, the port is extremely profitable and has been for years.

LXFlyer

I think it was one of the considerations Losty - that's why there is no direct walkway from the station to the terminal - the "secure port side" area is in the way.

Judgement Day

There's about as much chance of Rosslare being developed for rail freight as there is of a Bus Eireann bus being found on the Moon.The line will soon be cut back to Wexford and eventually Gorey.

Grandeeod

Losty Dublin wrote: »

It wasn't the reason though that is an valuable added benefit of the current station location. The port is due a radical expansion so the station was moved to it's new location both to assist safer car access into the port area and to facilitate the redevelopment of the old station site. There are plans for an expanded station complex when the port moves into the Lo Lo marine freight market; this will include facility for rail freight. As it stands, the port is extremely profitable and has been for years.

Ah that makes everything okay so.

Grandeeod

Judgement Day wrote: »

There's about as much chance of Rosslare being developed for rail freight as there is of a Bus Eireann bus being found on the Moon.The line will soon be cut back to Wexford and eventually Gorey.

Stop being so negative. Everything is grand. Have you not read the last few posts.:D

Hungerford

Having done some analysis of the timetabling, sailing times and the available paths, it does appear that the primary issue is one of willingness on Irish Rail's part.

The relevant sailing times appear to be:
Arrivals - 06:15; 06:46; 1800; 1846
Departures - 08:45; 09:00; 2045; 2100

The key to pathing on the Rosslare line seems to be that the Dublin departures should be as close to xx:10 or xx:40 as possible and the Rosslare ones should be close to xx:20 or xx:50.

The paths on the line are best thought of as being paired. For optimum crossings, a Rosslare train should depart either 10 minutes after or 50 minutes before the Dublin train it should pass. The trains would then cross at either Arklow or Wicklow.

With those in mind, my best effort at a timetable would be:
Ex Dublin: 05:10; 09:10; 12:10; 16:10; 17:40; 19:10*
Ex Rosslare: 05:20; 06:55**; 07:10; 09:20; 12:20; 15:20; 19:20

* Terminates at Wexford
** Departs from Gorey
Boat connections in bold.

Feel free to shoot me down in flames, I am an amateur at this pathing lark.

LXFlyer

You're pretty much on the mark there as that ties in with my earlier pathing efforts - 1915/1920 is the first realistic slot out of Rosslare that offers a connection.

However the 1740 is too close to the 2100 sailing - arriving into Rosslare at 2030 would be far too tight to allow for the trek across to the terminal and checking in. It would need to be the train before, which could remain at 1637.

I don't see how you could do it without adding the afternoon service. It would just be too late and too long a gap. And that boils down to money and funding - are the NTA prepared to pay for at least one if not more additional trains.

end of the road

lxflyer wrote: »

Terminating DARTs in Bray means a 60 minute gap in service to Greystones in at least one direction. That is far from ideal

yet a 4 to 5 hour gap between some services to and from eniscorthy wexford and rosslare is? timetable services properly and you will still have it on the half hour, its not as if many go to greystones anyway outside peak hours, services sharing the line with the dart is fine but when the dart is restricting the growth of a line that has to be stopped at all costs

end of the road

lxflyer wrote: »

The station move (which I lament as much as anyone here) as I understand it was down to the gardai/customs insisting post 9/11 that the post-check in area become a completely secure area and not breached by the railway line as it was.

I don't think it's necessarily fair to blame IE entirely for this one.

another excuse which i don't buy at all, the guardai and customs would easily have tried to come to some sort of arrangement with irish rail had they wanted to keep the railway line going into the port, irish rail didn't so they moved the station, and they will move it again

end of the road

Judgement Day wrote: »

There's about as much chance of Rosslare being developed for rail freight as there is of a Bus Eireann bus being found on the Moon.The line will soon be shut and lifted to Gorey and eventually greystones.

fixed that for you

Hungerford

end of the road wrote: »

another excuse which i don't buy at all

Neither do I. If that is the case, why then have the British authorities, who are infinitely more paranoid than the Irish ones, allowed Holyhead railway station to remain open? The station and the ferry terminal are basically the same building - much like the old Rosslare Europort.

LXFlyer

Hungerford wrote: »

Neither do I. If that is the case, why then have the British authorities, who are infinitely more paranoid than the Irish ones, allowed Holyhead railway station to remain open? The station and the ferry terminal are basically the same building - much like the old Rosslare Europort.

Yes - but the post security area in the UK ports does not have a railway line going through it - it is fenced off.

The railway is entirely "landside".

Rosslare had a railway line cutting through the secure area with a level crossing in the middle of it so it was both landside and ship side so to speak.

Either way, that was my understanding of the issue.

LXFlyer

end of the road wrote: »

yet a 4 to 5 hour gap between some services to and from eniscorthy wexford and rosslare is? timetable services properly and you will still have it on the half hour, its not as if many go to greystones anyway outside peak hours, services sharing the line with the dart is fine but when the dart is restricting the growth of a line that has to be stopped at all costs

No I didn't say that either was acceptable.

The DART is not stopping additional Rosslare services - I don't know how many times I have to say that - it just dictates when they can run (i.e. 2 slots per hour). That dictates when a boat train could operate. That's all.

What I said was that ultimately the whole thing boils down to cost and someone being prepared to pay for additional services. For whatever reason the NTA do not appear interested in doing so.

end of the road

lxflyer wrote: »

Yes - but the post security area in the UK ports does not have a railway line going through it - it is fenced off.

The railway is entirely "landside".

Rosslare had a railway line cutting through the secure area with a level crossing in the middle of it so it was both landside and ship side so to speak.

Either way, that was my understanding of the issue.

they could have replaced that level crossing with a bridge for either rail or road, would have been cheeper then re-locating a station, i think if irish rail wanted the rail to go into the port arrangements could have been made, and i believe customs would have came up with ideas to facilitate it, but we'l never know now

corktina

indeed there used to be a road bridge into the port area.

purplepanda

Hungerford wrote: »

Having done some analysis of the timetabling, sailing times and the available paths, it does appear that the primary issue is one of willingness on Irish Rail's part.

The relevant sailing times appear to be:
Arrivals - 06:15; 06:46; 1800; 1846
Departures - 08:45; 09:00; 2045; 2100

The key to pathing on the Rosslare line seems to be that the Dublin departures should be as close to xx:10 or xx:40 as possible and the Rosslare ones should be close to xx:20 or xx:50.

The paths on the line are best thought of as being paired. For optimum crossings, a Rosslare train should depart either 10 minutes after or 50 minutes before the Dublin train it should pass. The trains would then cross at either Arklow or Wicklow.

With those in mind, my best effort at a timetable would be:
Ex Dublin: 05:10; 09:10; 12:10; 16:10; 17:40; 19:10*
Ex Rosslare: 05:20; 06:55**; 07:10; 09:20; 12:20; 15:20; 19:20

* Terminates at Wexford
** Departs from Gorey
Boat connections in bold.

Feel free to shoot me down in flames, I am an amateur at this pathing lark.

Hungerford please check my post regarding running Greystones - Waterford, in addition to regular Connelly services, which would be designed to attract ferry passengers, encourage visitors, make more regional destinations accessible by rail & cater for Wexford - Waterford commuters. As well as connecting to DART for Dublin journeys.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83434578&postcount=35

If you have some spare time to work on pathing it would be interesting to see if my idea has any potential

Cheers PP

Losty Dublin

end of the road wrote: »

they could have replaced that level crossing with a bridge for either rail or road, would have been cheeper then re-locating a station, i think if irish rail wanted the rail to go into the port arrangements could have been made, and i believe customs would have came up with ideas to facilitate it, but we'l never know now

Building a new bridge would have cost a lot more that the new station plus it would not solve the road access and other issues within the port.