Rosslare timetabling of trains... WTF!?!?

popebenny16

DWCommuter wrote: »

Would the apparently "knowledgeable enthusiasts" around these parts like to comment on why this time honored tradition persists?

well, i am not one, i dont know, but i would like to know. can anyone tell me?

vicwatson

AFAIK it's been like that for donkeys years but sure you can't expect CIE to think outside the box now. Come on !! It would be wayyyy tooo logical for CIE to have the train times in tandem with the ferry arrivals/departures.

coolperson05

vicwatson wrote: »

AFAIK it's been like that for donkeys years but sure you can't expect CIE to think outside the box now. Come on !! It would be wayyyy tooo logical for CIE to have the train times in tandem with the ferry arrivals/departures.

Exactly. Sure if they had it right they might have people arriving in Rosslare and able to transport people via train to Dublin, Waterford, Cork, Limerick and Galway (via. Waterford and Limerick Junction), making ferrys a viable mode of transport to Irish cities! Shudder the thought! :rolleyes:

Spad

Much concern about the rundown of Rosslare in the Welsh side too. Check out discussion on Fishguard Trains website ...

corktina

http://fishguardtrains.info/

we've heard the excuses on here for this but it is clearly unacceptable for a train to leave five minutes before a ship arrives.

foggy_lad

corktina wrote: »

http://fishguardtrains.info/

we've heard the excuses on here for this but it is clearly unacceptable for a train to leave five minutes before a ship arrives.

On the rosslare line the trains are serving the commuter towns on the route as a priority and the port which is well served by buses is secondary. this will never change as there is no money in serving the port and making the line unusable or unattractive to commuters!

LXFlyer

corktina wrote: »

http://fishguardtrains.info/

we've heard the excuses on here for this but it is clearly unacceptable for a train to leave five minutes before a ship arrives.

With respect Corktina they're hardly "excuses". They are valid reasons which are well documented here several times over.

The constraints imposed by the clock face DART service, loop locations, and the fact that there are three busy commuter services coming in the opposite direction that rightly take priority, mean that any connecting boat train would mean the evening service to Dublin would be too late for passengers travelling from stations along the line northward.

And unless someone can come up with the necessary funding to solve it by adding an additional round trip during the day to bridge the gap that delaying the evening service to 19:15 would cause, then the situation is unlikely to change.

Both the morning sailing to Rosslare from Fishguard and evening sailing from Rosslare do have rail connections as do the sailings to/from France.

corktina

with respect, thats your opinion... If there are constraints , they need to be overcome.We're only talking about around 15 minutes here.

Judgement Day

It won't be long now before the railway south of Wexford will only remembered in folklore - perhaps Michael D could compose a poem about it. :rolleyes:

LXFlyer

corktina wrote: »

with respect, thats your opinion... If there are constraints , they need to be overcome.We're only talking about around 15 minutes here.

It's not an opinion - it is a statement based on a detailed analysis of the timetable, running times and available paths, as I posted in June 2011 having taken the time to sit down and path out the various options, something you readily admitted you did not know how to do. I note you suggested it was an opinion then too.

The result was that 19:15 is the only slot that does not cause unacceptable delays to trains in either direction en route and which fits into the clock face DART schedule (this leaves only two slots each hour around Bray Head for Rosslare line trains).

I am no happier about the fact that the train doesn't connect with the ferry, but a gap from 12:55 to 19:15 would be too long and the evening up train too late for domestic passengers without adding an additional service during the afternoon.

That would cost money and frankly that's something IE do not have.

The links to the original analysis that I performed are here in post 27:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056301091&page=2

I would ask the question - why can the ferry times not be changed?

Spad

So what happens in Fishguard?
All ferries have trains timetabled to meet them.
Rail passengers get off the trains, cross the platform, through customs and onto the ferry. And vice versa.
But it doesn't stop there. Instead of seeing the single-track line to Fishguard as a ferry-only service, Welsh Government has invested in a three year pilot which adds five more Fishguard trains Mon-Sat each direction.
Result - Fishguard commuters can reach Swansea, Cardiff, Manchester, London - and get back. And ferry passengers still have trains to meet the ferries.
It's not about the obstacles. It's about the direction of travel.
And that's the point. At Fishguard, the direction is investment in public transport. At Rosslare the direction seems to be rundown and closure.
Different societies, different governments, yes.
But we all pay taxes to Europe, and someone in Brussels will wake up one day and wonder what happened to the southern rail-sea route across Europe to Ireland.

LXFlyer

Spad - go and read the detailed analysis work I posted that is linked to above. It will at least explain the infrastructural issues that constrain Rosslare line services.

Funding is a serious issue. The Welsh government is far more pro-rail than our own.

Spad

lxflyer wrote: »

Spad - go and read the detailed analysis work I posted that is linked to above. It will at least explain the infrastructural issues that constrain Rosslare line services.

Funding is a serious issue. The Welsh government is far more pro-rail than our own.

So why would that be, then? The Welsh Government is pro-rail because that's what Welsh people want. And every new rail investment has far exceeded its predicted usage.
Is it really so very different the other side of St Geroge's Channel? Is there no public interest in rail in Ireland? Does transport just mean car, coach and plane? We'd like to know, because it affects us here too.

AlekSmart

Spad wrote: »

So why would that be, then? The Welsh Government is pro-rail because that's what Welsh people want. And every new rail investment has far exceeded its predicted usage.
Is it really so very different the other side of St Geroge's Channel? Is there no public interest in rail in Ireland? Does transport just mean car, coach and plane? We'd like to know, because it affects us here too.

One way it is different in St Georges land is that the inhabitants have and continue to pay a significant amount of Taxes which we in the Republic had abolished decades ago,such as domestic rates.

There is also the Local Taxation element,Poll or Council Tax,all of which represent a substantial Local Funding source which national administrations can then supplement as necessary.

However,and to be blunt about it,we as a people do not have the appreciation to see these revenue sources as anything other than impositions,somehow part of some centralized oppression upon our freedoms.

Thats why so many of us are dumbstruck when we come across workin integrated Public Transport Systems in exotic locations such as Barcelona,Berlin,Berne or.....Fishguard :eek:

n97 mini

I've a visitor coming over on Friday that lives beside Fishguard. He has to drive as public transport on this side is a nightmare. It doesn't work on any level, bus, or rail.

Hungerford

corktina wrote: »

We're only talking about around 15 minutes here.

My own suspicion is that a timetable could be worked out by making the 16:37 run earlier and the 18:38 run later from Dublin. If you can space out the trains properly, you could loop them with a departure from Rosslare at Wexford, Gorey and Wicklow without causing undue delay to anyone.

LXFlyer

corktina wrote: »

with respect, thats your opinion... If there are constraints , they need to be overcome.We're only talking about around 15 minutes here.

Hungerford wrote: »

My own suspicion is that a timetable could be worked out by making the 16:37 run earlier and the 18:38 run later from Dublin. If you can space out the trains properly, you could loop them with a departure from Rosslare at Wexford, Gorey and Wicklow without causing undue delay to anyone.

We are not simply talking about 15 minutes.

The ferry arrives at 1800. You would need to allow 15 minutes for passengers to get through the terminal and another 20 for everyone to make it across to the station. Therefore the earliest the train could leave is 18:35. As I pointed out above that just does not work due to clashes with the three peak hour services coming in the opposite direction.

The onlyslots between Bray and Greystones each hour available for Rosslare services in either direction are when the DARTs are in Greystones, allowing for a few minutes using the split signal:

Southbound:
xx:17-xx:29
xx:47-xx:59

Northbound:
xx:21-xx:33
xx:50-xx:03

By changing the 16:37 to 16:07 (that's the only other slot that can be used around Bray Head) you are actually making the one train that connects into an outbound sailing less attractive. The 16:37 is not a problem in terms of passing.

The problem is the 17:36 which is the principal peak hour train from Dublin.

The post below highlights the issues involved.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72550486&postcount=22

foggy_lad

The trains that meet the ferries in Fishguard depart/arrive at least an 60-90 minutes before or after the ferry arrival/departure. with this level of waiting time can it really be claimed they are connecting with the ferry?

Irish Steve

Ferry check in is at least 30 minutes before departure, and now the platforms are no longer harbourside, the time to get from the train to the terminal has to be allowed for.

Rosslare is the end of the line, and much of it, as we know to our aggravation, is single track, so it doesn't take much for the train to arrive late. Which is better, 60 to 90 before, so the check in will still be open, or 5 after the gate closes.

See it all the time at Dublin Airport. Will the last remaining 2 passengers travelling on flight x to destination y please go immediately to gate z where their flight is ready for immediate departure.

What is it about Ireland that arriving before the deadline is seen as being inappropriate, the attitude being "ah shore, they'll wait fer me".

Would be different if there was another ferry in 15 minutes, we're talking about a twice a day service here, so you have a long wait if you get it wrong.

On the other side of that coin, ferries can be delayed too, weather, problems with cargo loading, technical issues, so how long do you delay a train or bus for in that event. !0 minutes, an hour, 4 hours, all of which are possible delays, especially in the winter months.

It's always inconvenient when connections are delayed. Even more so if as a result the connection fails. Better to have a good buffer than to miss the connect.

corktina

lxflyer wrote: »

It's not an opinion - it is a statement based on a detailed analysis of the timetable, running times and available paths, as I posted in June 2011 having taken the time to sit down and path out the various options, something you readily admitted you did not know how to do. I note you suggested it was an opinion then too.

The result was that 19:15 is the only slot that does not cause unacceptable delays to trains in either direction en route and which fits into the clock face DART schedule (this leaves only two slots each hour around Bray Head for Rosslare line trains).

I am no happier about the fact that the train doesn't connect with the ferry, but a gap from 12:55 to 19:15 would be too long and the evening up train too late for domestic passengers without adding an additional service during the afternoon.

That would cost money and frankly that's something IE do not have.

The links to the original analysis that I performed are here in post 27:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056301091&page=2

I would ask the question - why can the ferry times not be changed?

unacceptable delays? 15 minutes? I think not.

LXFlyer

And where are you getting 15 minutes from?

You appear to be plucking this out of thin air with no analysis of what the impact is on other services.

The minimum you could delay the train is 35 minutes to allow people sufficient time to get from the ship to the station, but that path would mean either a 27 minute wait at Enniscorthy or cause the far busier 1737 down service to have to wait almost 20 minutes in Gorey. And all of this doesn't take into account the fact that the northbound train is getting later and later which means it is far less attractive to people along the line.

I'd ask the question again - why can't the ship timetable be moved forward 40 minutes?

purplepanda

Said this before but why does every Rosslare train have to go to & from Connelly?

The journey time is not much more timewise from Greystones - Connelly by DART so why not send introduce some extra services connecting up with DART departures / arrivals at Greystones? Some passengers don't go all the way to Connolly anyway.

Some extra daytime & late evening services connected with DART timetables at Greystones would get more passengers on the line, more journey possibilities & even better more connections to & from ferry arrivals / departures.

After all rail & ferry passengers don't seem to mind changing at Swansea / Cardiff for connecting trains to their destinations on the Fishguard route?

LXFlyer

Realistically adding additional journeys is just not going to happen in the current economic climate. Virtually every other route has had service cuts in order to save money.

purplepanda

lxflyer wrote: »

Realistically adding additional journeys is just not going to happen in the current economic climate. Virtually every other route has had service cuts in order to save money.

Demand has to be promoted & more passengers attracted by providing better services, the cost of the trains & maintaince is already paid for as are staff & station & track infrastructure so trying new ideas to generate more revenue should be considered.

No point in having new trains & leaving them idle when they could be given a chance to generate further passenger income.

Summer weekends especially need more services aimed at attracting visitors & tourists onto the railways.

Cookie_Monster

purplepanda wrote: »

No point in having new trains & leaving them idle when they could be given a chance to generate further passenger income.

The problem isn't trains or crew but pathing spaces through the Dublin area, only so many trains per hour can be allowed with the current signal system.

LXFlyer

purplepanda wrote: »

Demand has to be promoted & more passengers attracted by providing better services, the cost of the trains & maintaince is already paid for as are staff & station & track infrastructure so trying new ideas to generate more revenue should be considered.

No point in having new trains & leaving them idle when they could be given a chance to generate further passenger income.

Summer weekends especially need more services aimed at attracting visitors & tourists onto the railways.

I don't disagree but right now it would appear that there is barely enough money to keep existing services running let alone adding additional ones, which could require additional crews and would involve additional costs.

purplepanda

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

The problem isn't trains or crew but pathing spaces through the Dublin area, only so many trains per hour can be allowed with the current signal system.

As I mentioned above, use Greystones for extra services connecting with DART departures & arrivals.

The Rosslare - Connelly trains just crawl through most of the way to Dublin once they reach Graystones / Bray. They are only a few minutes faster than a DART service on this part of the route.

Instead of duplicating DART services from Greystones, make better use of trains on the faster part of the route to Rosslare.

Hungerford

lxflyer wrote: »

By changing the 16:37 to 16:07 (that's the only other slot that can be used around Bray Head) you are actually making the one train that connects into an outbound sailing less attractive.

What outbound sailing does it connect with?

LXFlyer

The 2100.

Either way - that train is not the issue. The problems are the two trains following, and I would imagine people would not be too happy if you moved the 1736 30 minutes either way (the only option to get around Bray Head).

Hungerford

lxflyer wrote: »

The problem is the 17:36 which is the principal peak hour train from Dublin.

That can be easily solved by terminating the train in Gorey.