Rosslare timetabling of trains... WTF!?!?

n97 mini

I know it sounds like a broken record at this stage, but there has to be some reason.

I just read here "Trains are not timetabled to meet the ferry services to and from Fishguard- they generally leave approximately 5 minutes before the ferry berths."

Can someone give the REAL reason why this is so? Why the fook are IE running a passenger train out of a port that leaves 5 minutes before the fooking ferry arrives?!

My pension was raided today by a govt that is presiding over this shíte. I'm going to email Leo about this.

L1011

Deliberately running down passenger numbers, pure and simple. Its hard to get the NTA to agree to closing a railway people use, see.

Trampas

that would make to much sense

n97 mini

MYOB wrote: »

Deliberately running down passenger numbers, pure and simple. Its hard to get the NTA to agree to closing a railway people use, see.

But why run down passenger numbers? It makes no sense.

IE orchestrating the closure of railways makes no sense. The boys will be doing themselves out of jobs.

L1011

IE are a property firm who have the awkward problem of having to run a train service.

road_high

It really is madness. The train on the other side far as I know in Fishguard meets the ferries as common sense would dictate.

bmaxi

With the new jobs initiative announced today focusing so much on tourism, you'd think this sort of thing would be high on the agenda. Without addressing things like this, it's just so much window dressing. Fact is, IR don't want to run trains to Rosslare and Kenny, like his predecessors, won't do a thing about it

Run_to_da_hills

Why is there so many WTF Rosslare threads on this forum?

DundalkDuffman

It doesn't seem to be unique to Rosslare, the afternoon HSS into Holyhead just misses the train out of Holyhead leaving a 2 hour wait until the next one. Infuriating!

coolperson05

Someone needs to corner a NTA agent and just get the real story! If they're the National TRANSPORT Authority, they can't be oblivious to this! It's just bonkers, railways all over the country doing sweet F.A.

Carawaystick

No-one's considered it might be the fact there's shag all foot passengers
and there's bus services on a much more frequent basis than the trains which are quicker to get to Dublin than the train?

The only people seriously inconvenienced are those trying to get to Rathdrum.

DWCommuter

Would the apparently "knowledgeable enthusiasts" around these parts like to comment on why this time honored tradition persists?

OurLadyofKnock

CIE is and always has been a pathologically insane organisation from top to bottom. If they ran a bank they would be selling sandwiches from the ATMs. If they owned an airport they would be growing cabbages between the runways.

ArmaniJeanss

Carawaystick wrote: »

No-one's considered it might be the fact there's shag all foot passengers
and there's bus services on a much more frequent basis than the trains which are quicker to get to Dublin than the train?

Ah come on now, there must be some foot passengers 50,20,10,5 whatever.

So you schedule the train to depart 20 or 30 minutes after the ferry arrives.
You put an ad on the ferrys website advertising this fact - you give special offers for people who book the boat and the train.
You advertise it to the Welsh stag party / hen party/golf holiday crowd as a fun and easy and cheap way to get to Dublin.

The one thing you don't do is deliberately schedule the trains to depart 5 minutes before the ferry arrives.

Transportuser09

I fully agree CIÉ/IÉ's attitude to Rosslare is pretty ridiculous. IÉ own the port yet dug up a perfectly good rail connection and relocated it as inconvienantly as possible, giving their sister/rival company BÉ the advantage in terms of convienance. It's crazy. The timetabling of trains not to connect with the ferries doesn't make any sense either, when it comes to Rosslare port very little does.

Even if the foot passenger traffic is low surely it would have been cheaper to resignal the old line into the port than build a new station? (The one there was only put in around the late 80s anyway. Madness.

n97 mini

Carawaystick wrote: »

No-one's considered it might be the fact there's shag all foot passengers

And no better way to keep passenger numbers at a minimum than by making life as difficult as possible for them.

Judgement Day

The NTA (No Trains Allowed) are well aware of the situation at Rosslare but who appointed them? Who do they represent? Where is the representation for rail users and I don't mean Mark Gleeson!!

OurLadyofKnock

Judgement Day wrote: »

The NTA (No Trains Allowed) are well aware of the situation at Rosslare but who appointed them? Who do they represent? Where is the representation for rail users and I don't mean Mark Gleeson!!

There is a plastic bag wrapped around a street lamp in Boyle. You could try that.

foggy_lad

n97 mini wrote: »

And no better way to keep passenger numbers at a minimum than by making life as difficult as possible for them.

Passengers walk out of the terminal straight onto a bus and get ferried into dublin or even the airport in less time than the train could ever do the journey. Seems pretty good to me.

n97 mini

foggy_lad wrote: »

Passengers walk out of the terminal straight onto a bus and get ferried into dublin or even the airport in less time than the train could ever do the journey. Seems pretty good to me.

Seems a pretty good reason for the train to leave 5 minutes before the ferry gets in? You might need to explain that one.

Not sure why anyone would come off the ferry from the UK to go to Dublin Airport? You might need to explain that one too.

BE Rosslare Europort to Busarus is 3hr 20min. The train is 30 minutes quicker. You'll also need to explain why the bus is better.

foggy_lad

n97 mini wrote: »

Seems a pretty good reason for the train to leave 5 minutes before the ferry gets in? You might need to explain that one.

Not sure why anyone would come off the ferry from the UK to go to Dublin Airport? You might need to explain that one too.

BE Rosslare Europort to Busarus is 3hr 20min. The train is 30 minutes quicker. You'll also need to explain why the bus is better.

If Rosslare was the only station served by the train I might be concerned but many people rely on the trains for getting to/from work etc and to regularly delay the trains for god only knows how long would be criticized as just another classic Irish rail move in preparation for line closure, they are damned if they do and slated and damned because they don't!

n97 mini

foggy_lad wrote: »

If Rosslare was the only station served by the train I might be concerned but many people rely on the trains for getting to/from work etc and to regularly delay the trains for god only knows how long would be criticized as just another classic Irish rail move in preparation for line closure, they are damned if they do and slated and damned because they don't!

What? With all due respect I think you're on the wrong thread.

We're not talking delaying trains. We're talking timetabling them to leave after the ferry arrives. If you're running a train from a ferry port who is it there to serve?

foggy_lad

n97 mini wrote: »

What? With all due respect I think you're on the wrong thread.

We're not talking delaying trains. We're talking timetabling them to leave after the ferry arrives. If you're running a train from a ferry port who is it there to serve?

So the trains leave a half hour later and people along the route stop getting it because it is now useless for work or whatever they used it for, it is not all about the ferry which accounts for a lot of the passengers on the train but not all of them.

Cookie_Monster

you know, at this point it would just be easier and quicker to ask Stena / Irish ferries to move the ferry time to suit the train :pac:

LXFlyer

I would agree about the absurdity of the lack of connections at Rosslare.

However, before castigating the NTA, I would comment that there is a new Connolly draft timetable due to be published shortly - the first since the NTA have taken over responsibility for this area. Perhaps it might be better to criticise them once that is published if it does not see improved connections.

For those who are criticising the NTA above and suggesting they have no customer forcus I would point to the raft of bus timetable changes and new licence approvals that have taken place in recent months as an example that shows this is patently not the case. They are getting through a massive backlog that they inherited from the DoT and seem to be taking a customer focussed approach.

To my mind the Rosslare line bady needs a redrafted timetable with at least one extra morning service in each direction, connections reinstated into and out of the evening ferries, and a late evening service to Gorey.

Cookie_Monster

yet the NTA has approved DB network direct, the single worst thing ot happen to buses in the city in 50 years and the recent increase in fares again.... says a lot about their customer focus

n97 mini

foggy_lad wrote: »

So the trains leave a half hour later and people along the route stop getting it because it is now useless for work

Let them get the friggin bus if it's so good!

n97 mini

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

you know, at this point it would just be easier and quicker to ask Stena / Irish ferries to move the ferry time to suit the train :pac:

I thought the same. But then I thought if the ferries were pulled back by half an hour that in the next timetable the trains would be pulled back by the same amount, restoring the status quo.

LXFlyer

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

yet the NTA has approved DB network direct, the single worst thing ot happen to buses in the city in 50 years and the recent increase in fares again.... says a lot about their customer focus

That's a somewhat over the top comment. Yes there were serious implementation issues (particularly around the N11 and N2 and route 4) but I think it would be correct to say that they have now been addressed and lessons learnt.

I don't see anything in the later plans that would justify your comment - from what it would appear (from reports here) since the next round of plans were published the bus company is listening to what customers are saying at the consultations (e.g. route 11 being retained).

The reality is that the bus service in Dublin can and will be cut back in certain areas where there is over-supply of routes. Listening to the Minister that is fairly obvious.

You are at the same time ignoring the other service improvements approved by the NTA:
1) Improved bus services in Cavan/Monaghan
2) New Aircoach services
3) Extension of the 37 to Blanchardstown SC
4) Impending introduction of bus services along the M3
5) Improvements on the Limerick and Derry routes
6) Dublin Coach going to 24 hour operation
7) Improved local services in Wexford
8) Extended Swords Express services
9) Rollout of RTPI

In the particular instance of Rosslare, I'd personally prefer to wait and see what the draft timetable is like before passing judgement on the NTA, rather than just making instant judgements before we see what is planned.

murphym7

mfitzy wrote: »

It really is madness. The train on the other side far as I know in Fishguard meets the ferries as common sense would dictate.

Correct, the train pulls into the Stena train station around 20/30 minutes before the ferry gets in - passengers get off train and get themsleves sorted out for getting on the ferry.

Ferry docks, and passengers walk straight onto train which leaves shortly after - direct connection to Swansea and Cardiff with connections to London et all after that. Works really smoothly. Stena own the train station and work with the rail provider around timetabling.

Stena in fact sell combined ferry and train ticket pacakages - it attracts more foot passengers - where it falls down is getting off the ferry in Ireland.

DWCommuter

murphym7 wrote: »

Stena in fact sell combined ferry and train ticket pacakages - it attracts more foot passengers - where it falls down is getting off the ferry in Ireland.

Well considering Stena are technically part owners of the Rosslare - Waterford rail line, you'd think they would have been a little more proactive when it came to shutting the route down.:D

popebenny16

DWCommuter wrote: »

Would the apparently "knowledgeable enthusiasts" around these parts like to comment on why this time honored tradition persists?

well, i am not one, i dont know, but i would like to know. can anyone tell me?

vicwatson

AFAIK it's been like that for donkeys years but sure you can't expect CIE to think outside the box now. Come on !! It would be wayyyy tooo logical for CIE to have the train times in tandem with the ferry arrivals/departures.

coolperson05

vicwatson wrote: »

AFAIK it's been like that for donkeys years but sure you can't expect CIE to think outside the box now. Come on !! It would be wayyyy tooo logical for CIE to have the train times in tandem with the ferry arrivals/departures.

Exactly. Sure if they had it right they might have people arriving in Rosslare and able to transport people via train to Dublin, Waterford, Cork, Limerick and Galway (via. Waterford and Limerick Junction), making ferrys a viable mode of transport to Irish cities! Shudder the thought! :rolleyes:

Spad

Much concern about the rundown of Rosslare in the Welsh side too. Check out discussion on Fishguard Trains website ...

corktina

http://fishguardtrains.info/

we've heard the excuses on here for this but it is clearly unacceptable for a train to leave five minutes before a ship arrives.

foggy_lad

corktina wrote: »

http://fishguardtrains.info/

we've heard the excuses on here for this but it is clearly unacceptable for a train to leave five minutes before a ship arrives.

On the rosslare line the trains are serving the commuter towns on the route as a priority and the port which is well served by buses is secondary. this will never change as there is no money in serving the port and making the line unusable or unattractive to commuters!

LXFlyer

corktina wrote: »

http://fishguardtrains.info/

we've heard the excuses on here for this but it is clearly unacceptable for a train to leave five minutes before a ship arrives.

With respect Corktina they're hardly "excuses". They are valid reasons which are well documented here several times over.

The constraints imposed by the clock face DART service, loop locations, and the fact that there are three busy commuter services coming in the opposite direction that rightly take priority, mean that any connecting boat train would mean the evening service to Dublin would be too late for passengers travelling from stations along the line northward.

And unless someone can come up with the necessary funding to solve it by adding an additional round trip during the day to bridge the gap that delaying the evening service to 19:15 would cause, then the situation is unlikely to change.

Both the morning sailing to Rosslare from Fishguard and evening sailing from Rosslare do have rail connections as do the sailings to/from France.

corktina

with respect, thats your opinion... If there are constraints , they need to be overcome.We're only talking about around 15 minutes here.

Judgement Day

It won't be long now before the railway south of Wexford will only remembered in folklore - perhaps Michael D could compose a poem about it. :rolleyes:

LXFlyer

corktina wrote: »

with respect, thats your opinion... If there are constraints , they need to be overcome.We're only talking about around 15 minutes here.

It's not an opinion - it is a statement based on a detailed analysis of the timetable, running times and available paths, as I posted in June 2011 having taken the time to sit down and path out the various options, something you readily admitted you did not know how to do. I note you suggested it was an opinion then too.

The result was that 19:15 is the only slot that does not cause unacceptable delays to trains in either direction en route and which fits into the clock face DART schedule (this leaves only two slots each hour around Bray Head for Rosslare line trains).

I am no happier about the fact that the train doesn't connect with the ferry, but a gap from 12:55 to 19:15 would be too long and the evening up train too late for domestic passengers without adding an additional service during the afternoon.

That would cost money and frankly that's something IE do not have.

The links to the original analysis that I performed are here in post 27:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056301091&page=2

I would ask the question - why can the ferry times not be changed?

Spad

So what happens in Fishguard?
All ferries have trains timetabled to meet them.
Rail passengers get off the trains, cross the platform, through customs and onto the ferry. And vice versa.
But it doesn't stop there. Instead of seeing the single-track line to Fishguard as a ferry-only service, Welsh Government has invested in a three year pilot which adds five more Fishguard trains Mon-Sat each direction.
Result - Fishguard commuters can reach Swansea, Cardiff, Manchester, London - and get back. And ferry passengers still have trains to meet the ferries.
It's not about the obstacles. It's about the direction of travel.
And that's the point. At Fishguard, the direction is investment in public transport. At Rosslare the direction seems to be rundown and closure.
Different societies, different governments, yes.
But we all pay taxes to Europe, and someone in Brussels will wake up one day and wonder what happened to the southern rail-sea route across Europe to Ireland.

LXFlyer

Spad - go and read the detailed analysis work I posted that is linked to above. It will at least explain the infrastructural issues that constrain Rosslare line services.

Funding is a serious issue. The Welsh government is far more pro-rail than our own.

Spad

lxflyer wrote: »

Spad - go and read the detailed analysis work I posted that is linked to above. It will at least explain the infrastructural issues that constrain Rosslare line services.

Funding is a serious issue. The Welsh government is far more pro-rail than our own.

So why would that be, then? The Welsh Government is pro-rail because that's what Welsh people want. And every new rail investment has far exceeded its predicted usage.
Is it really so very different the other side of St Geroge's Channel? Is there no public interest in rail in Ireland? Does transport just mean car, coach and plane? We'd like to know, because it affects us here too.

AlekSmart

Spad wrote: »

So why would that be, then? The Welsh Government is pro-rail because that's what Welsh people want. And every new rail investment has far exceeded its predicted usage.
Is it really so very different the other side of St Geroge's Channel? Is there no public interest in rail in Ireland? Does transport just mean car, coach and plane? We'd like to know, because it affects us here too.

One way it is different in St Georges land is that the inhabitants have and continue to pay a significant amount of Taxes which we in the Republic had abolished decades ago,such as domestic rates.

There is also the Local Taxation element,Poll or Council Tax,all of which represent a substantial Local Funding source which national administrations can then supplement as necessary.

However,and to be blunt about it,we as a people do not have the appreciation to see these revenue sources as anything other than impositions,somehow part of some centralized oppression upon our freedoms.

Thats why so many of us are dumbstruck when we come across workin integrated Public Transport Systems in exotic locations such as Barcelona,Berlin,Berne or.....Fishguard :eek:

n97 mini

I've a visitor coming over on Friday that lives beside Fishguard. He has to drive as public transport on this side is a nightmare. It doesn't work on any level, bus, or rail.

Hungerford

corktina wrote: »

We're only talking about around 15 minutes here.

My own suspicion is that a timetable could be worked out by making the 16:37 run earlier and the 18:38 run later from Dublin. If you can space out the trains properly, you could loop them with a departure from Rosslare at Wexford, Gorey and Wicklow without causing undue delay to anyone.

LXFlyer

corktina wrote: »

with respect, thats your opinion... If there are constraints , they need to be overcome.We're only talking about around 15 minutes here.

Hungerford wrote: »

My own suspicion is that a timetable could be worked out by making the 16:37 run earlier and the 18:38 run later from Dublin. If you can space out the trains properly, you could loop them with a departure from Rosslare at Wexford, Gorey and Wicklow without causing undue delay to anyone.

We are not simply talking about 15 minutes.

The ferry arrives at 1800. You would need to allow 15 minutes for passengers to get through the terminal and another 20 for everyone to make it across to the station. Therefore the earliest the train could leave is 18:35. As I pointed out above that just does not work due to clashes with the three peak hour services coming in the opposite direction.

The onlyslots between Bray and Greystones each hour available for Rosslare services in either direction are when the DARTs are in Greystones, allowing for a few minutes using the split signal:

Southbound:
xx:17-xx:29
xx:47-xx:59

Northbound:
xx:21-xx:33
xx:50-xx:03

By changing the 16:37 to 16:07 (that's the only other slot that can be used around Bray Head) you are actually making the one train that connects into an outbound sailing less attractive. The 16:37 is not a problem in terms of passing.

The problem is the 17:36 which is the principal peak hour train from Dublin.

The post below highlights the issues involved.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72550486&postcount=22

foggy_lad

The trains that meet the ferries in Fishguard depart/arrive at least an 60-90 minutes before or after the ferry arrival/departure. with this level of waiting time can it really be claimed they are connecting with the ferry?

Irish Steve

Ferry check in is at least 30 minutes before departure, and now the platforms are no longer harbourside, the time to get from the train to the terminal has to be allowed for.

Rosslare is the end of the line, and much of it, as we know to our aggravation, is single track, so it doesn't take much for the train to arrive late. Which is better, 60 to 90 before, so the check in will still be open, or 5 after the gate closes.

See it all the time at Dublin Airport. Will the last remaining 2 passengers travelling on flight x to destination y please go immediately to gate z where their flight is ready for immediate departure.

What is it about Ireland that arriving before the deadline is seen as being inappropriate, the attitude being "ah shore, they'll wait fer me".

Would be different if there was another ferry in 15 minutes, we're talking about a twice a day service here, so you have a long wait if you get it wrong.

On the other side of that coin, ferries can be delayed too, weather, problems with cargo loading, technical issues, so how long do you delay a train or bus for in that event. !0 minutes, an hour, 4 hours, all of which are possible delays, especially in the winter months.

It's always inconvenient when connections are delayed. Even more so if as a result the connection fails. Better to have a good buffer than to miss the connect.

corktina

lxflyer wrote: »

It's not an opinion - it is a statement based on a detailed analysis of the timetable, running times and available paths, as I posted in June 2011 having taken the time to sit down and path out the various options, something you readily admitted you did not know how to do. I note you suggested it was an opinion then too.

The result was that 19:15 is the only slot that does not cause unacceptable delays to trains in either direction en route and which fits into the clock face DART schedule (this leaves only two slots each hour around Bray Head for Rosslare line trains).

I am no happier about the fact that the train doesn't connect with the ferry, but a gap from 12:55 to 19:15 would be too long and the evening up train too late for domestic passengers without adding an additional service during the afternoon.

That would cost money and frankly that's something IE do not have.

The links to the original analysis that I performed are here in post 27:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056301091&page=2

I would ask the question - why can the ferry times not be changed?

unacceptable delays? 15 minutes? I think not.