ERU, have they regained confidence?

CommuterIE

Back in 2000 when they shot dead John Carthy, with the FBI watching (probably thinking, OMG these guys are incompetent morons), 11 years on, would you have faith in them?

PK2008

Yeh, they were a bit shy for a while there, went into their shell - stopped having fun...............


wtf are you on about?

bonerm

I'd have more faith in those little plastic soldiers from Toy Story.

CommuterIE

PK2008 wrote: »

Yeh, they were a bit shy for a while there, went into their shell - stopped having fun...............


wtf are you on about?

Ignorance is bliss isn't it? :rolleyes:

Deus Ex Machina

I don't think I'm qualified to comment on situations which involve the kind of pressure those guys have to deal with. Theirs is one of the hardest jobs you can have.

swiftblade

Afaik, the FBI said they would have done the same just sooner.
I have no reason not to have confidence in them.

Guy:Incognito

CommuterIE wrote: »

Ignorance is bliss isn't it? :rolleyes:

Yeah it's better to always be on alert for the man, man. They're always there waiting man. The man's out to get us all man.

CommuterIE

Deus Ex Machina wrote: »

I don't think I'm qualified to comment on situations which involve the kind of pressure those guys have to deal with. Their's is one of the hardest jobs you can have.

What, one guy with a shotgun above his head?? And they shoot him dead...

admiralofthefleet

one night in work the pub was smashed to pieces during a row, they ERU were on the scene within a few minutes of the panic buttons being hit and stopped the inevitable happening. (the gang who did it were turning on ordinary people)

Witcher

Peole lost confidence in them over the John Carthy situation?

Armed response unit shoot armed man refusing their orders.

You can't win in this country, if they had of let him shoot someone the same people would be whinging 'Why didn't they stop him?':rolleyes:

enfant terrible

CommuterIE wrote: »

What, one guy with a shotgun above his head?? And they shoot him dead...

A shotgun can be dangerous.

swiftblade

Blay wrote: »

Peole lost confidence in them over the John Carthy situation?

Armed response unit shoot armed man refusing their orders.

You can't win in this country, if they had of let him shoot someone the same people would be whinging 'Why didn't they stop him?':rolleyes:

Exactly, they showed restraint if anything.

Oh I know what this thread is...

"They should have shot him in the leg/shot gun out of his hands"

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

Witcher

CommuterIE wrote: »

What, one guy with a shotgun above his head?? And they shoot him dead...

It doesn't matter where it was he was told to put it down and he didn't. It was an unfortunate event, it never should have come down to the situation it did but at the end of the day he refused an order from armed Gardai and paid the price.

paddy0090

Blay wrote: »

Peole lost confidence in them over the John Carthy situation?

Armed response unit shoot armed man refusing their orders.

You can't win in this country, if they had of let him shoot someone the same people would be whinging 'Why didn't they stop him?':rolleyes:

That wasn't what people didn't like. What people, me included, didn't like was that they turned him to swiss cheese. He was shot several time. It seemed a bit like they'd just let having the guns in their hands and the target in their site get the better of them. All in all he probably would have to be killed.

swiftblade

paddy0090 wrote: »

That wasn't what people didn't like. What people, me included, didn't like was that they turned him to swiss cheese. He was shot several time. It seemed a bit like they'd just let having the guns in their hands and the target in their site get the better of them. All in all he probably would have to be killed.

He was shot Four times. Hardly "swiss cheese"

Witcher

paddy0090 wrote: »

That wasn't what people didn't like. What people, me included, didn't like was that they turned him to swiss cheese. He was shot several time. It seemed a bit like they'd just let having the guns in their hands and the target in their site get the better of them. All in all he probably would have to be killed.

The first shots were to take him down without killing him, that didn't work and they killed him with 2 shots. Four total, not exactly swiss cheese, look at John Charles de Menezes in the UK, shot 11 times, 7 to the head.

TrollHammaren

CommuterIE wrote: »

Back in 2000 when they shot dead John Carthy, with the FBI watching (probably thinking, OMG these guys are incompetent morons), 11 years on, would you have faith in them?

The FBI weren't watching, they just reviewed the case after Garda Michael Jackson came under scrutiny.

I don't believe they were ever incompetent, they just had to deal with exceptionally frustrating circumstances and became subject to the judgement of wholly unqualified people.

During the incident with John Carthy they had no access to less-than-lethal weapons and were heavily sleep-deprived. It was an undeniable tragedy that the ERU had to fire, but he was walking armed towards a residential area and wouldn't stop despite repeated attempts to get him to do so. If they had access to less-than-lethal weapons they would have used them.

The vast majority of people who attack the ERU's decision to open fire a) don't have a clue what went on, and b) have never been in such an intense situation. I'm don't condone the use of excessive force, I just feel that a trial by media is unjustified.

You never hear of the ERU success stories, such as the incidents when they foiled a tiger kidnapping or the time in Ballyfermot when the O2 shop was robbed and the perpetrators opened fire. The ERU intervened and there were no casualties.

So yes, I'm fairly confident in their ability, but feel they need better access to equipment.

lastlaugh

I remember at the time I thought they were a bit trigger happy and that yerman (who was a bit simple) wanted smokes or something stupid and his sister should have been allowed to talk to him...

What's the point of this thread?

Surely we are all better off having such a force?

(Oh wait, they killed yerman so I still don't trust them)

paddy0090

swiftblade wrote: »

He was shot Four times. Hardly "swiss cheese"

Hardly professional either though is it? I think this is what the OP was getting at. It all seemed a bit like overkill. As I understand it it wasn't just the one gunman.

I do agree that he would probably have to be killed

swiftblade

paddy0090 wrote: »

Hardly professional either though is it? I think this is what the OP was getting at. It all seemed a bit like overkill. As I understand it it wasn't just the one gunman.

I do agree that he would probably have to be killed

Four shots overkill? Most police forces worldwide train with a "3 to centre mass" policy.

Witcher

paddy0090 wrote: »

Hardly professional either though is it? I think this is what the OP was getting at. It all seemed a bit like overkill. As I understand it it wasn't just the one gunman.

I do agree that he would probably have to be killed

What would be professional, shot to the back of the head and him have a closed coffin? He was shot twice in the chest, that's pretty standard procedure among police forces to take down an armed man.

paddy0090

Blay wrote: »

What would be professional, shot to the back of the head and him have a closed coffin? He was shot twice in the chest, that's pretty standard procedure among police forces to take down an armed man.

Was he shot twice or four times? And no I wouldn't care where he was shot, back of the head whatever!

But yeah four shots and more than one shooter seems like overkill.

Witcher

paddy0090 wrote: »

Was he shot twice or four times? And no I wouldn't care where he was shot, back of the head whatever!

But yeah four shots and more than one shooter seems like overkill.

He was shot twice in the legs to incapacitate him and the next two shots were in the chest. You can say 'shoot him in the head' but his family would have been more distressed had he been unrecognisable in his coffin. Bad situation for all involved at the end of the day.

mikemac

Ah this thread reminds me of the Post Office robbery in Lusk. Though I don't know if was the ERU, armed gardai involved anyway

Two men were shot dead after gardaí engaged armed raiders during the attempted robbery at a post office.
The men have been named as 33-year-old Colm Griffin from Canon Lillis Avenue in Dublin and 24-year-old Eric Hopkins from Lower Rutland Street in Dublin.
It is believed the men arrived at the scene just after 8am in stolen cars with false number plates. Gardaí had had the post office under surveillance.

Live by the gun, die by the gun

It is understood the men were called on to drop their weapons before the gardaí opened fire. One of the men was shot dead at the scene, the other died from gunshot wounds in hospital.
Both men were part of an armed gang that had been under garda surveillance.

God the moaning and crying afterwards. And the families crying like they were saints

The armchair experts jump in and made public demands

The human rights group, Amnesty International, has called for an independent inquiry into the circumstances surrounding this morning's attempted robbery in Lusk, Co Dublin.

Going by this thread, I'd go with Bertie Ahern over many in Ireland and a few on the thread. A few weak kneed posters here

Meanwhile the Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, has said he hopes the public does not get 'weak kneed' when the gardaí are forced to respond to violent crime.

swiftblade

paddy0090 wrote: »

Was he shot twice or four times? And no I wouldn't care where he was shot, back of the head whatever!

But yeah four shots and more than one shooter seems like overkill.

He was shot 4 time by two different people. Also what's to say one shot would have brought him down?

sdanseo

I've read the report, ERU acted as well as they could have been expected to in my relatively well educated opinion.

That aside, can we have a moratorium on Garda-bashing (sort of) threads? Please?

mikemac

Rubbish poll realy

What if you never lost confidence in them and back them over what happened at Abbeylara

A poll should have an option for every viewpoint

paddy0090

It was armed gardai in lusk not the ERU. Tbf I think they did what they had to.

swiftblade wrote: »

He was shot 4 time by two different people. Also what's to say one shot would have brought him down?

The calibre of the bullet is usually the thing.

This all comes down to competence. Do it once do it right!

swiftblade

paddy0090 wrote: »

It was armed gardai in lusk not the ERU. Tbf I think they did what they had to.



The calibre of the bullet is usually the thing.

This all comes down to competence. Do it once do it right!

Which would have been 9mm. Definitely has a low stopping power. Are you saying they should have took a chance and only shot him once? Have you ever read up on similar incidents in differnt countries?

It wasn't me!

The only fault that was discovered at Abbeylara was that the Gardai did not shoot sooner. Also, policy is typically to shoot until the threat is no longer apparent. There's no such thing as one or two or three shots as a policy. Once deadly force is called for, the threat has been determined to be such that its immediate end mandates whatever action is necessary. You don't fire two, then see how it's going, or anything like that.

ahal

It is hard to make out what happened in Abbeylara.

Fair play to anyone who can be shot in the legs and scrotum and keep on walking, making the head shot necessary. Sounds like utterly comtemptible b.s. to me. Someone got carried away perhaps?

To me either it was a product of gung - ho or nerves. Whichever it was it was wrong. Sure it's a tough job, but these guys are meant to be an elite force. Elite force equals elite character and elite behaviour. Sure, mistakes can happen - but mistakes should be admitted.

This matter, as someone previously rightly pointed out, should never have come to a head in the first place. John Carthy was falsely accused of desecrating a GAA monument in the town and maintained that he had been beaten up by the Gardai - an assertion which an investigating judge later described as "quite probable".

That set the scene for what happened. Mr. Carthy also had mental health issues, and probably rightly felt discriminated against over this. The last thing you do is back someone like that into a corner. This should never have become an ERU matter in the first place, and probably wouldn't have become if the Gardai in question were competent to do the jobs they were and are paid to do.

No, I don't think that the ERU are baddies, it was fairly new when this all happened but I think it is important that truths be acknowledged along the way. As far as I'm concerned, Abbeylara was a cock - up. Had the guy been shot in an intended non - fatal way and subsequently died, I'd say tough luck. The story regarding the need for the shot in the head is rubbish imo.

maglite

Armchair experts galore.

Bosco boy

CommuterIE wrote: »

Back in 2000 when they shot dead John Carthy, with the FBI watching (probably thinking, OMG these guys are incompetent morons), 11 years on, would you have faith in them?

What a bull**** thread.

TrollHammaren

Bosco boy wrote: »

What a bull**** thread.

I agree.

/unfollow.

mcgarrett

Just sitting here thinking about the number of news reports over the years where this unit has been credited with foiling armed robberies and arresting armed criminals with no shots fired.
Abbeylara, Lusk and the Securicor van in Lucan last year are all high profile because of the loss of life. The incidents where armed dissidents and criminals are arrested in possession of firearms and explosives and no shots are fired isn't considered all that newsworthy by the media but nonetheless proves the professionalism of this unit.

Read a book not so long ago about the Real IRA and it's attempts to thwart the peace process and the Good Friday agreement. There was a six week period in 1998 where ERU stopped a car bomb going on the Dunlaoighaire Ferry to the UK, two car bombs outside Dundalk heading north the day before voting on the Good Friday Agreement and an armed robbery in Wicklow on the infamous blue flu day. All RIRA operations that could well have proved disastrous for the peace process.

I'm sure the Keanes, Ryans and Collopys in Limerick have an opinion as well.

K-9

Wasn't there a siege situation in Dublin 3/4 years ago and the ERU acted very professionally, taking on board the recommendations from the McCarthy case, shot the guy in the leg IIRC and still people moaned!

mikemac

In every thread I've ever seen on this topic on boards, somebody will post that video where an American sniper shoots a gun out a gunmans hands.
And then the army rush in and push him to the ground

Yet even on youtube there were comments about brutality for pushing him to the ground :rolleyes:

This one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff4XuPtAOUk

Why oh why couldn't the gardaí do this are the cries.
As said already, the mistake made was they didn't shoot sooner

Poccington

The amount of ****e in this thread is unreal.

A man, having already discharged his weapon previously, is advancing towards the ERU, still armed and refusing to comply with their calls to halt and drop the weapon. How close does he have to get before they open fire? He won't drop the weapon and since he's already discharged his weapon, it's certainly believable he'd have no hesitation to do it again. He was a threat to the ERU members on the scene and a threat to the public.

How anyone can say he shouldn't have been shot is beyond me. Unfortunately, shooting him in the legs doesn't take away the use of his arms, in which he was holding a shotgun that he had already discharged since the siege began. He needed to be hit centre mass to make sure he went down. Simple as.

ahal

It seems this thread is attracting a lot of comments on the posters rather than the posts. We can go for a 'shoot em up' society, but I don't think that's what the majority of people want. That brings it's own, well documented hazards.

Once again I refuse to believe that someone shot in both legs and the crotch would be in much state to shoot anyone. I'd rather deal with facts. Oh yes, I do have an opinion as well. I'm entitled to it. It's called Democracy. If someone has an alternate opinion that's fine too, but please base it on the facts.

yammycat

anybody who would want the job is a low life

It wasn't me!

yammycat wrote: »

anybody who would want the job is a low life

I'm sure you'll spit on them and refuse the help of such "lowlives" if ever you're in a situation to require their assistance.

Tefral

In my humble opinion they should have a shoot first ask questions later policy.

If your some nut who has got his hands on a weapon and look like your endangering life then you should be disarmed by all necessary means.

The fact you have procured a weapon as a criminal shows intent and premeditation.

Thats the problem with this country, the criminals get away with murder literally. The law backs them up not the poor ERU sod who has to make a choice to end a persons life as a job.

I say let them shoot the scumbags, maybe then the real criminals will think twice about murdering and hurting people.

lemansky

paddy0090 wrote: »

It was armed gardai in lusk not the ERU. Tbf I think they did what they had to.

Members of the ERU were also present and involved at each stage.

Captain Chaos

ahal wrote: »

Once again I refuse to believe that someone shot in both legs and the crotch would be in much state to shoot anyone. I'd rather deal with facts. Oh yes, I do have an opinion as well. I'm entitled to it. It's called Democracy. If someone has an alternate opinion that's fine too, but please base it on the facts.

The human body is a strange beast under stress. I have read a story that happened in the US, an armed gunman in a shootout with two officers ran 5 city blocks afters being hit a least 15 times and made it to a hospital where he was treated and survived.

After this, that particular police department changed to a more powerful calliber as the 9mm was deemed not up to dropping a threat quick enough, to much came down to shot placement, same as what the ERU used that day.

Tefral

Captain Chaos wrote: »

The human body is a strange beast under stress.

I personally know two people who have been shot and both said the only reason why they knew they had been shot is there was blood. Your body goes into shock.

Rhamiel

The ERU acted exactly how any other emergency response police unit would have. I dont understand the poll options of 'still amateurs' or 'learned from their mistakes' when no mistake was made and it would have been unprofessional not to fire in the circumstances.

I think people are confusing their feelings of sadness and injustice that a mentally unwell man was shot dead. I understand the tragedy of the event and was heart wrenched for the poor man and his family when it first came out but that's the protocol and the same actions would be followed in those circumstances by police special weapons and training units worldwide.

I haven't read the entire report but the main criticism appeared to be poor communication between local gardai and negotiators but that has nothing to do with an ERU unit following its orders and training.

Your question assumes the ERU did something wrong.

They didn't. Crazy man with shotgun got killed. Tough sh*t for him.

I've *always* had confidence in the GERU.

grenache

They didn't muck about in Cork when that lunatic scumbag entered Mo Chuisle bar on Blarney St with a gun. They were on the scene within five minutes and took him out. I'd have every faith in him.

flas

the eru is incredibly well trained and well organised elite unit who in work in extremely difficult circumstances. as someone said already, the good they do does not get the media attention. i know someone in this unit personally, even to get into it is an extremely hard process. lying in ditches in wait for up to 2 days at a time not knowing when their targets are going to show and being under constant stress like that would cause many people to crack but these are able to spring into action, twarting armed robbers and terrorists. i think people forget the constant threat still of the likes of the cira and olig na heireann.

the people in the eru deserve our respect and confidence at least.

paddy0090

Rhamiel wrote: »

The ERU acted exactly how any other emergency response police unit would have. I dont understand the poll options of 'still amateurs' or 'learned from their mistakes' when no mistake was made and it would have been unprofessional not to fire in the circumstances.

I think people are confusing their feelings of sadness and injustice that a mentally unwell man was shot dead. I understand the tragedy of the event and was heart wrenched for the poor man and his family when it first came out but that's the protocol and the same actions would be followed in those circumstances by police special weapons and training units worldwide.

I haven't read the entire report but the main criticism appeared to be poor communication between local gardai and negotiators but that has nothing to do with an ERU unit following its orders and training.

What utter bs. No one is confused about this. I have a mentally ill brother, if he became unstable to the point where he threatened the life of one or more people then he becomes a communal problem. Dealt with by common law, i.e the Gardai. The force required top stop him is the force required to stop him.

I'm sick of Blay & Switchbalde thanking each other for their opinions on this.... good to get someone else in.(not guards I swear)

But it is a matter of competence. The 'rape thing', the 'standing for election' thing, the 'abbelara thing' and the 'blu flu thing'. I could go on, and make no head way. But the manner in which the Gardai conduct themselves is by no means professional. They instil few of us with confidence in law. They behave like every other union - as a clique. Deteremined to it's own ends and damn the rest the rest of us.

I fully understanbd the importance of a strong and capable police force. Without it the weak will suffer the most (I have seen this). But the ERU and the Gardai just don't seem like this force. The abbelara incident is one in a long line if public incidents, though perhaps right in theory, was wrong in execuiton.