ERU, have they regained confidence?

CommuterIE · 07-05-2011 10:48PM #1

Back in 2000 when they shot dead John Carthy, with the FBI watching (probably thinking, OMG these guys are incompetent morons), 11 years on, would you have faith in them?

PK2008 · 07-05-2011 10:52PM

Yeh, they were a bit shy for a while there, went into their shell - stopped having fun...............

wtf are you on about?

bonerm · 07-05-2011 10:54PM

I'd have more faith in those little plastic soldiers from Toy Story.

CommuterIE · 07-05-2011 10:55PM

PK2008 wrote: »

Yeh, they were a bit shy for a while there, went into their shell - stopped having fun...............

wtf are you on about?

Ignorance is bliss isn't it? :rolleyes:

Deus Ex Machina · 07-05-2011 10:56PM

I don't think I'm qualified to comment on situations which involve the kind of pressure those guys have to deal with. Theirs is one of the hardest jobs you can have.

swiftblade · 07-05-2011 10:57PM

Afaik, the FBI said they would have done the same just sooner.
I have no reason not to have confidence in them.

Guy:Incognito · 07-05-2011 10:57PM

CommuterIE wrote: »

Ignorance is bliss isn't it? :rolleyes:

Yeah it's better to always be on alert for the man, man. They're always there waiting man. The man's out to get us all man.

CommuterIE · 07-05-2011 10:58PM

Deus Ex Machina wrote: »

I don't think I'm qualified to comment on situations which involve the kind of pressure those guys have to deal with. Their's is one of the hardest jobs you can have.

What, one guy with a shotgun above his head?? And they shoot him dead...

admiralofthefleet · 07-05-2011 10:58PM

one night in work the pub was smashed to pieces during a row, they ERU were on the scene within a few minutes of the panic buttons being hit and stopped the inevitable happening. (the gang who did it were turning on ordinary people)

Witcher · 07-05-2011 10:58PM

Peole lost confidence in them over the John Carthy situation?

Armed response unit shoot armed man refusing their orders.

You can't win in this country, if they had of let him shoot someone the same people would be whinging 'Why didn't they stop him?':rolleyes:

enfant terrible · 07-05-2011 11:00PM

CommuterIE wrote: »

What, one guy with a shotgun above his head?? And they shoot him dead...

A shotgun can be dangerous.

swiftblade · 07-05-2011 11:01PM

Blay wrote: »

Peole lost confidence in them over the John Carthy situation?

Armed response unit shoot armed man refusing their orders.

You can't win in this country, if they had of let him shoot someone the same people would be whinging 'Why didn't they stop him?':rolleyes:

Exactly, they showed restraint if anything.

Oh I know what this thread is...

"They should have shot him in the leg/shot gun out of his hands"

Crann na Beatha · 07-05-2011 11:02PM

This post has been deleted.

Witcher · 07-05-2011 11:04PM

CommuterIE wrote: »

What, one guy with a shotgun above his head?? And they shoot him dead...

It doesn't matter where it was he was told to put it down and he didn't. It was an unfortunate event, it never should have come down to the situation it did but at the end of the day he refused an order from armed Gardai and paid the price.

paddy0090 · 07-05-2011 11:05PM

Blay wrote: »

Peole lost confidence in them over the John Carthy situation?

Armed response unit shoot armed man refusing their orders.

You can't win in this country, if they had of let him shoot someone the same people would be whinging 'Why didn't they stop him?':rolleyes:

That wasn't what people didn't like. What people, me included, didn't like was that they turned him to swiss cheese. He was shot several time. It seemed a bit like they'd just let having the guns in their hands and the target in their site get the better of them. All in all he probably would have to be killed.

swiftblade · 07-05-2011 11:08PM

paddy0090 wrote: »

That wasn't what people didn't like. What people, me included, didn't like was that they turned him to swiss cheese. He was shot several time. It seemed a bit like they'd just let having the guns in their hands and the target in their site get the better of them. All in all he probably would have to be killed.

He was shot Four times. Hardly "swiss cheese"

Witcher · 07-05-2011 11:10PM

paddy0090 wrote: »

That wasn't what people didn't like. What people, me included, didn't like was that they turned him to swiss cheese. He was shot several time. It seemed a bit like they'd just let having the guns in their hands and the target in their site get the better of them. All in all he probably would have to be killed.

The first shots were to take him down without killing him, that didn't work and they killed him with 2 shots. Four total, not exactly swiss cheese, look at John Charles de Menezes in the UK, shot 11 times, 7 to the head.

TrollHammaren · 07-05-2011 11:10PM

CommuterIE wrote: »

Back in 2000 when they shot dead John Carthy, with the FBI watching (probably thinking, OMG these guys are incompetent morons), 11 years on, would you have faith in them?

The FBI weren't watching, they just reviewed the case after Garda Michael Jackson came under scrutiny.

I don't believe they were ever incompetent, they just had to deal with exceptionally frustrating circumstances and became subject to the judgement of wholly unqualified people.

During the incident with John Carthy they had no access to less-than-lethal weapons and were heavily sleep-deprived. It was an undeniable tragedy that the ERU had to fire, but he was walking armed towards a residential area and wouldn't stop despite repeated attempts to get him to do so. If they had access to less-than-lethal weapons they would have used them.

The vast majority of people who attack the ERU's decision to open fire a) don't have a clue what went on, and b) have never been in such an intense situation. I'm don't condone the use of excessive force, I just feel that a trial by media is unjustified.

You never hear of the ERU success stories, such as the incidents when they foiled a tiger kidnapping or the time in Ballyfermot when the O2 shop was robbed and the perpetrators opened fire. The ERU intervened and there were no casualties.

So yes, I'm fairly confident in their ability, but feel they need better access to equipment.

lastlaugh · 07-05-2011 11:13PM

I remember at the time I thought they were a bit trigger happy and that yerman (who was a bit simple) wanted smokes or something stupid and his sister should have been allowed to talk to him...

What's the point of this thread?

Surely we are all better off having such a force?

(Oh wait, they killed yerman so I still don't trust them)

paddy0090 · 07-05-2011 11:15PM

swiftblade wrote: »

He was shot Four times. Hardly "swiss cheese"

Hardly professional either though is it? I think this is what the OP was getting at. It all seemed a bit like overkill. As I understand it it wasn't just the one gunman.

I do agree that he would probably have to be killed

swiftblade · 07-05-2011 11:17PM

paddy0090 wrote: »

Hardly professional either though is it? I think this is what the OP was getting at. It all seemed a bit like overkill. As I understand it it wasn't just the one gunman.

I do agree that he would probably have to be killed

Four shots overkill? Most police forces worldwide train with a "3 to centre mass" policy.

Witcher · 07-05-2011 11:20PM

paddy0090 wrote: »

Hardly professional either though is it? I think this is what the OP was getting at. It all seemed a bit like overkill. As I understand it it wasn't just the one gunman.

I do agree that he would probably have to be killed

What would be professional, shot to the back of the head and him have a closed coffin? He was shot twice in the chest, that's pretty standard procedure among police forces to take down an armed man.

paddy0090 · 07-05-2011 11:25PM

Blay wrote: »

What would be professional, shot to the back of the head and him have a closed coffin? He was shot twice in the chest, that's pretty standard procedure among police forces to take down an armed man.

Was he shot twice or four times? And no I wouldn't care where he was shot, back of the head whatever!

But yeah four shots and more than one shooter seems like overkill.

Witcher · 07-05-2011 11:28PM

paddy0090 wrote: »

Was he shot twice or four times? And no I wouldn't care where he was shot, back of the head whatever!

But yeah four shots and more than one shooter seems like overkill.

He was shot twice in the legs to incapacitate him and the next two shots were in the chest. You can say 'shoot him in the head' but his family would have been more distressed had he been unrecognisable in his coffin. Bad situation for all involved at the end of the day.

mikemac · 07-05-2011 11:28PM

Ah this thread reminds me of the Post Office robbery in Lusk. Though I don't know if was the ERU, armed gardai involved anyway

Two men were shot dead after gardaí engaged armed raiders during the attempted robbery at a post office.
The men have been named as 33-year-old Colm Griffin from Canon Lillis Avenue in Dublin and 24-year-old Eric Hopkins from Lower Rutland Street in Dublin.
It is believed the men arrived at the scene just after 8am in stolen cars with false number plates. Gardaí had had the post office under surveillance.

Live by the gun, die by the gun

It is understood the men were called on to drop their weapons before the gardaí opened fire. One of the men was shot dead at the scene, the other died from gunshot wounds in hospital.
Both men were part of an armed gang that had been under garda surveillance.

God the moaning and crying afterwards. And the families crying like they were saints

The armchair experts jump in and made public demands

The human rights group, Amnesty International, has called for an independent inquiry into the circumstances surrounding this morning's attempted robbery in Lusk, Co Dublin.

Going by this thread, I'd go with Bertie Ahern over many in Ireland and a few on the thread. A few weak kneed posters here

Meanwhile the Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, has said he hopes the public does not get 'weak kneed' when the gardaí are forced to respond to violent crime.

swiftblade · 07-05-2011 11:28PM

paddy0090 wrote: »

Was he shot twice or four times? And no I wouldn't care where he was shot, back of the head whatever!

But yeah four shots and more than one shooter seems like overkill.

He was shot 4 time by two different people. Also what's to say one shot would have brought him down?

sdanseo · 07-05-2011 11:31PM

I've read the report, ERU acted as well as they could have been expected to in my relatively well educated opinion.

That aside, can we have a moratorium on Garda-bashing (sort of) threads? Please?

mikemac · 07-05-2011 11:32PM

Rubbish poll realy

What if you never lost confidence in them and back them over what happened at Abbeylara

A poll should have an option for every viewpoint

paddy0090 · 07-05-2011 11:36PM

It was armed gardai in lusk not the ERU. Tbf I think they did what they had to.

swiftblade wrote: »

He was shot 4 time by two different people. Also what's to say one shot would have brought him down?

The calibre of the bullet is usually the thing.

This all comes down to competence. Do it once do it right!

swiftblade · 07-05-2011 11:38PM

paddy0090 wrote: »

It was armed gardai in lusk not the ERU. Tbf I think they did what they had to.

The calibre of the bullet is usually the thing.

This all comes down to competence. Do it once do it right!

Which would have been 9mm. Definitely has a low stopping power. Are you saying they should have took a chance and only shot him once? Have you ever read up on similar incidents in differnt countries?

It wasn't me! · 07-05-2011 11:48PM

The only fault that was discovered at Abbeylara was that the Gardai did not shoot sooner. Also, policy is typically to shoot until the threat is no longer apparent. There's no such thing as one or two or three shots as a policy. Once deadly force is called for, the threat has been determined to be such that its immediate end mandates whatever action is necessary. You don't fire two, then see how it's going, or anything like that.

ERU, have they regained confidence?

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