ERU, have they regained confidence?

ahal · 07-05-2011 11:53PM

It is hard to make out what happened in Abbeylara.

Fair play to anyone who can be shot in the legs and scrotum and keep on walking, making the head shot necessary. Sounds like utterly comtemptible b.s. to me. Someone got carried away perhaps?

To me either it was a product of gung - ho or nerves. Whichever it was it was wrong. Sure it's a tough job, but these guys are meant to be an elite force. Elite force equals elite character and elite behaviour. Sure, mistakes can happen - but mistakes should be admitted.

This matter, as someone previously rightly pointed out, should never have come to a head in the first place. John Carthy was falsely accused of desecrating a GAA monument in the town and maintained that he had been beaten up by the Gardai - an assertion which an investigating judge later described as "quite probable".

That set the scene for what happened. Mr. Carthy also had mental health issues, and probably rightly felt discriminated against over this. The last thing you do is back someone like that into a corner. This should never have become an ERU matter in the first place, and probably wouldn't have become if the Gardai in question were competent to do the jobs they were and are paid to do.

No, I don't think that the ERU are baddies, it was fairly new when this all happened but I think it is important that truths be acknowledged along the way. As far as I'm concerned, Abbeylara was a cock - up. Had the guy been shot in an intended non - fatal way and subsequently died, I'd say tough luck. The story regarding the need for the shot in the head is rubbish imo.

maglite · 07-05-2011 11:53PM

Armchair experts galore.

Bosco boy · 07-05-2011 11:54PM

CommuterIE wrote: »

Back in 2000 when they shot dead John Carthy, with the FBI watching (probably thinking, OMG these guys are incompetent morons), 11 years on, would you have faith in them?

What a bull**** thread.

TrollHammaren · 07-05-2011 11:55PM

Bosco boy wrote: »

What a bull**** thread.

I agree.

/unfollow.

mcgarrett · 08-05-2011 12:16AM

Just sitting here thinking about the number of news reports over the years where this unit has been credited with foiling armed robberies and arresting armed criminals with no shots fired.
Abbeylara, Lusk and the Securicor van in Lucan last year are all high profile because of the loss of life. The incidents where armed dissidents and criminals are arrested in possession of firearms and explosives and no shots are fired isn't considered all that newsworthy by the media but nonetheless proves the professionalism of this unit.

Read a book not so long ago about the Real IRA and it's attempts to thwart the peace process and the Good Friday agreement. There was a six week period in 1998 where ERU stopped a car bomb going on the Dunlaoighaire Ferry to the UK, two car bombs outside Dundalk heading north the day before voting on the Good Friday Agreement and an armed robbery in Wicklow on the infamous blue flu day. All RIRA operations that could well have proved disastrous for the peace process.

I'm sure the Keanes, Ryans and Collopys in Limerick have an opinion as well.

K-9 · 08-05-2011 12:46AM

Wasn't there a siege situation in Dublin 3/4 years ago and the ERU acted very professionally, taking on board the recommendations from the McCarthy case, shot the guy in the leg IIRC and still people moaned!

mikemac · 08-05-2011 12:55AM

In every thread I've ever seen on this topic on boards, somebody will post that video where an American sniper shoots a gun out a gunmans hands.
And then the army rush in and push him to the ground

Yet even on youtube there were comments about brutality for pushing him to the ground :rolleyes:

This one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff4XuPtAOUk

Why oh why couldn't the gardaí do this are the cries.
As said already, the mistake made was they didn't shoot sooner

Poccington · 08-05-2011 12:58AM

The amount of ****e in this thread is unreal.

A man, having already discharged his weapon previously, is advancing towards the ERU, still armed and refusing to comply with their calls to halt and drop the weapon. How close does he have to get before they open fire? He won't drop the weapon and since he's already discharged his weapon, it's certainly believable he'd have no hesitation to do it again. He was a threat to the ERU members on the scene and a threat to the public.

How anyone can say he shouldn't have been shot is beyond me. Unfortunately, shooting him in the legs doesn't take away the use of his arms, in which he was holding a shotgun that he had already discharged since the siege began. He needed to be hit centre mass to make sure he went down. Simple as.

ahal · 08-05-2011 01:06AM

It seems this thread is attracting a lot of comments on the posters rather than the posts. We can go for a 'shoot em up' society, but I don't think that's what the majority of people want. That brings it's own, well documented hazards.

Once again I refuse to believe that someone shot in both legs and the crotch would be in much state to shoot anyone. I'd rather deal with facts. Oh yes, I do have an opinion as well. I'm entitled to it. It's called Democracy. If someone has an alternate opinion that's fine too, but please base it on the facts.

yammycat · 08-05-2011 01:08AM

anybody who would want the job is a low life

It wasn't me! · 08-05-2011 01:12AM

yammycat wrote: »

anybody who would want the job is a low life

I'm sure you'll spit on them and refuse the help of such "lowlives" if ever you're in a situation to require their assistance.

Tefral · 08-05-2011 01:15AM

In my humble opinion they should have a shoot first ask questions later policy.

If your some nut who has got his hands on a weapon and look like your endangering life then you should be disarmed by all necessary means.

The fact you have procured a weapon as a criminal shows intent and premeditation.

Thats the problem with this country, the criminals get away with murder literally. The law backs them up not the poor ERU sod who has to make a choice to end a persons life as a job.

I say let them shoot the scumbags, maybe then the real criminals will think twice about murdering and hurting people.

lemansky · 08-05-2011 01:15AM

paddy0090 wrote: »

It was armed gardai in lusk not the ERU. Tbf I think they did what they had to.

Members of the ERU were also present and involved at each stage.

Captain Chaos · 08-05-2011 01:15AM

ahal wrote: »

Once again I refuse to believe that someone shot in both legs and the crotch would be in much state to shoot anyone. I'd rather deal with facts. Oh yes, I do have an opinion as well. I'm entitled to it. It's called Democracy. If someone has an alternate opinion that's fine too, but please base it on the facts.

The human body is a strange beast under stress. I have read a story that happened in the US, an armed gunman in a shootout with two officers ran 5 city blocks afters being hit a least 15 times and made it to a hospital where he was treated and survived.

After this, that particular police department changed to a more powerful calliber as the 9mm was deemed not up to dropping a threat quick enough, to much came down to shot placement, same as what the ERU used that day.

Tefral · 08-05-2011 01:17AM

Captain Chaos wrote: »

The human body is a strange beast under stress.

I personally know two people who have been shot and both said the only reason why they knew they had been shot is there was blood. Your body goes into shock.

Rhamiel · 08-05-2011 02:00AM

The ERU acted exactly how any other emergency response police unit would have. I dont understand the poll options of 'still amateurs' or 'learned from their mistakes' when no mistake was made and it would have been unprofessional not to fire in the circumstances.

I think people are confusing their feelings of sadness and injustice that a mentally unwell man was shot dead. I understand the tragedy of the event and was heart wrenched for the poor man and his family when it first came out but that's the protocol and the same actions would be followed in those circumstances by police special weapons and training units worldwide.

I haven't read the entire report but the main criticism appeared to be poor communication between local gardai and negotiators but that has nothing to do with an ERU unit following its orders and training.

08-05-2011 02:16AM

Your question assumes the ERU did something wrong.

They didn't. Crazy man with shotgun got killed. Tough sh*t for him.

I've *always* had confidence in the GERU.

grenache · 08-05-2011 02:35AM

They didn't muck about in Cork when that lunatic scumbag entered Mo Chuisle bar on Blarney St with a gun. They were on the scene within five minutes and took him out. I'd have every faith in him.

flas · 08-05-2011 02:48AM

the eru is incredibly well trained and well organised elite unit who in work in extremely difficult circumstances. as someone said already, the good they do does not get the media attention. i know someone in this unit personally, even to get into it is an extremely hard process. lying in ditches in wait for up to 2 days at a time not knowing when their targets are going to show and being under constant stress like that would cause many people to crack but these are able to spring into action, twarting armed robbers and terrorists. i think people forget the constant threat still of the likes of the cira and olig na heireann.

the people in the eru deserve our respect and confidence at least.

paddy0090 · 08-05-2011 03:27AM

Rhamiel wrote: »

The ERU acted exactly how any other emergency response police unit would have. I dont understand the poll options of 'still amateurs' or 'learned from their mistakes' when no mistake was made and it would have been unprofessional not to fire in the circumstances.

I think people are confusing their feelings of sadness and injustice that a mentally unwell man was shot dead. I understand the tragedy of the event and was heart wrenched for the poor man and his family when it first came out but that's the protocol and the same actions would be followed in those circumstances by police special weapons and training units worldwide.

I haven't read the entire report but the main criticism appeared to be poor communication between local gardai and negotiators but that has nothing to do with an ERU unit following its orders and training.

What utter bs. No one is confused about this. I have a mentally ill brother, if he became unstable to the point where he threatened the life of one or more people then he becomes a communal problem. Dealt with by common law, i.e the Gardai. The force required top stop him is the force required to stop him.

I'm sick of Blay & Switchbalde thanking each other for their opinions on this.... good to get someone else in.(not guards I swear)

But it is a matter of competence. The 'rape thing', the 'standing for election' thing, the 'abbelara thing' and the 'blu flu thing'. I could go on, and make no head way. But the manner in which the Gardai conduct themselves is by no means professional. They instil few of us with confidence in law. They behave like every other union - as a clique. Deteremined to it's own ends and damn the rest the rest of us.

I fully understanbd the importance of a strong and capable police force. Without it the weak will suffer the most (I have seen this). But the ERU and the Gardai just don't seem like this force. The abbelara incident is one in a long line if public incidents, though perhaps right in theory, was wrong in execuiton.

08-05-2011 03:38AM

Fu Fu Fu Fu Fu fight the powah!

Fight the powah!

Big long brushstrokes there man, painting the entire force as useless.

Bullcrap. There's competent cops, incompetent cops, and humans. The force stands with reputation intact.

questionmark? · 08-05-2011 04:00AM

yammycat wrote: »

anybody who would want the job is a low life

Ya what a fantastic post :rolleyes:

swiftblade · 08-05-2011 11:10AM

Lets say that the man who was shot was a known drug offender with previous convictions. Would you be blaming them that they shot him? NO

The ERU looked at the situation. Man armed with shotgun. They then decided the coarse of action.

Also why can't I thank Blay's posts? I'm not a member of the Gardaí, besides what you might think. If I agree with sombodies post I thank it. Simple as

Rhamiel · 08-05-2011 03:21PM

paddy0090 wrote: »

What utter bs. No one is confused about this. I have a mentally ill brother, if he became unstable to the point where he threatened the life of one or more people then he becomes a communal problem. Dealt with by common law, i.e the Gardai. The force required top stop him is the force required to stop him.

I'm sick of Blay & Switchbalde thanking each other for their opinions on this.... good to get someone else in.(not guards I swear)

But it is a matter of competence. The 'rape thing', the 'standing for election' thing, the 'abbelara thing' and the 'blu flu thing'. I could go on, and make no head way. But the manner in which the Gardai conduct themselves is by no means professional. They instil few of us with confidence in law. They behave like every other union - as a clique. Deteremined to it's own ends and damn the rest the rest of us.

I fully understanbd the importance of a strong and capable police force. Without it the weak will suffer the most (I have seen this). But the ERU and the Gardai just don't seem like this force. The abbelara incident is one in a long line if public incidents, though perhaps right in theory, was wrong in execuiton.

I never said the Gardai as a police force are entirely professional, that is not what this thread is asking so there is was no need to state my opinions on that matter. The ERU are one of the few professional units within the gardai and acted as it had been trained in the situation. This is what the thread is looking at so my point is to look at this incident objectively in relation to how a specialised armed police team would have acted in England, U.S. France, Germany etc. .... rather than confusing their actions with other completely separate incidents years apart throughout the country and by completely different branches of the gardai.

I agree that a mentally ill person in that situation is a communal issue that society has a duty to give particular protection to and its a terrible shame what happened but I'm quiet sure you weren't up writing letters to TDs to what the protocol should be if that situation arose before it did??

Remmy · 08-05-2011 03:39PM

paddy0090 wrote: »

Was he shot twice or four times? And no I wouldn't care where he was shot, back of the head whatever!

But yeah four shots and more than one shooter seems like overkill.

What do you expect them to have done?Deem that they needed to use lethal force to have stopped him then shot him once in the leg?

IMO If they had to make the decision to use lethal force there is a valid reason for it and their aren't going to use half-measures.

Walther mitty forum >>>

baldbear · 08-05-2011 03:56PM

The ERU acted correctly.

It was the local gardai who acted poorly. They failed to consult his doctor and psychiatrist and didn't tell negotiators that John Carthy had a serious mistrust of the local gardai after he was assaulted during questioning over a burnt effigy for the local football team.

mickydoomsux · 08-05-2011 04:22PM

Meh. You play with the bull, you get the horns.

It's not like the ERU went into this nutcases house, put the shotgun in his hands and told him to start taking potshots so they could shoot him dead. They did their job and did it well. He was a dangerous lunatic that needed putting down.

Of course you'll get a lot of hand wringing about it in this country because one of our favourite past-times is to make everyone who does something wrong a victim. It's irrelevant to me that this lad had "problems", he still did what he did. In this country no one is responsible for their own actions, it always has to be someone elses fault or they have a problem or they had a hard life or they blah-de-blah-blah.

We'll make excuses for scumbags and psychos till the cows come home rather than deal with the problem in a decisive manner. Then we'll turn around and wonder why the justice system is a joke.

vampire of kilmainham · 08-05-2011 04:29PM

CommuterIE wrote: »

What, one guy with a shotgun above his head?? And they shoot him dead...

the mere fact of him having a wepon is enough to determin that he is going to use it and he could of killed someone with it i would of shot him tooo he should of put the shotgun down as he was asked to do...

vampire of kilmainham · 08-05-2011 04:32PM

Blay wrote: »

Peole lost confidence in them over the John Carthy situation?

Armed response unit shoot armed man refusing their orders.

You can't win in this country, if they had of let him shoot someone the same people would be whinging 'Why didn't they stop him?':rolleyes:

yes for sure it's a catch 22 all the time ye just cant win can ya dammed if ya do dammed if ya dont...

vampire of kilmainham · 08-05-2011 04:36PM

swiftblade wrote: »

Exactly, they showed restraint if anything.

Oh I know what this thread is...

"They should have shot him in the leg/shot gun out of his hands"

we had a saying in the army never wound your enemy as they can still shoot you just blow their head off that way you know their finished...

ERU, have they regained confidence?

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