Limerick-Ballybrophy Line

ClovenHoof

foggy_lad wrote: »

A combination of track, signalling, poor points, also the line has not been invested in due to the low number of potential customers in the catchment area and the alternatives being faster and often cheaper.

and West on Track don't care if every rail line in Ireland closed apart the one that will transport a parish priest into heaven...

McAlban

Commuter rail in the Limerick Area is probably a huge untapped market, not getting into the discussion about the Ennis Line, the problems with which are discussed at length elsewhere. But there are 3 Closed Stations on that line and a demolished station in Longpavement.

[Crayonism] I wonder what a P&R at Ballycar&Newmarket would do for the WRC[/Crayonism]

It always astounds me that Planning is done piecemeal by IR in relation to services such as this. Or as I like to think they think horizontally along lines and never take the helicopter view.

thomond2006

Could this line be linked to UL somehow? It isn't too far from it and there's no stop after Castleconnell in any case. I suppose that does mean building a new line from Castleconnell to Colbert...

McAlban

Way out in Annacotty Business Park...

The nearest you could build a station to UL is either in Garryowen (on the Dublin Road where the line crosses it Beside Parkway SC) or here.

In an Ideal World (or another similar sized city) there would be stations in both with a connecting bus service. (304 and 300 Go this route already)

I suppose that does mean building a new line from Castleconnell to Colbert...

Missed this bit, I doubt they will ever do a heavy rail line, you're going through Built up areas to get into and out of UL.

ClovenHoof

Just add a direct curve and route all Dublin Limerick trains on to it that would change everything for the better.

All this other other talk about new stations and branches here and there, is non issue until this is sorted.

The solution is extremely simple: direct curve Ballybrophy.

McAlban

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Just add a direct curve and route all Dublin Limerick trains on to it that would change everything for the better.

All this other other talk about new stations here and there is non issue until this is sorted.

Are you talking solely for Limerick - Dublin Services? There are 4 Trains from Colbert to Dublin Direct, and 3 in the opposite direction, It does sort a lot, but it also cuts out Ballybrophy. Although it gets few passengers, there would still be a stink if it were cut out of the loop (excuse the pun).

Not to mention the lack of double track and passing loops between Ballybrophy and Limerick. It'd probably be slower than getting the shuttle from Limerick Jc.

Don't get me wrong, If they could do Heuston to Colbert in a considerable time less than 2 hours then feck Ballybrophy.

Banjoxed

ClovenHoof wrote: »

and West on Track don't care if every rail line in Ireland closed apart the one that will transport a parish priest into heaven...

Dry your eyes, mate. There's the squillion page corral thread for that sort of thing.

foggy_lad

ClovenHoof wrote: »

It should be the main Dublin to Limerick line. I know it is money, but all the line needs is for the curve to face towards Dublin and offer direct services to Roscrea and Nenagh.

Simple, line saved!

Indeed having the line joining the up main line in the proper direction would be a start but that would involve a huge realignment of the line or moving Ballybrophy station further up the line., having patrons who don't mind being restricted to the train is another, then talk of having stops at UL and other places is all good but there are not enough commuters going to or from those locations who would give up their cars and use the train on a regular basis because the car gives far more freedom and better options for doing a bit of shopping after work/college or doing anything bar getting the train home. Another issue is that most of these areas are well served by buses and the buses provide a far better service with more options than the train ever could.

Most of the line is restricted to about 25mph and the level crossings and accommodation crossings will make it impossible to make great inroads(past 40mph) on the speeds on the line, it is not economically viable, it is not needed.

end of the road

foggy_lad wrote: »

Indeed having the line joining the up main line in the proper direction would be a start but that would involve a huge realignment of the line or moving Ballybrophy station further up the line., having patrons who don't mind being restricted to the train is another, then talk of having stops at UL and other places is all good but there are not enough commuters going to or from those locations who would give up their cars and use the train on a regular basis because the car gives far more freedom and better options for doing a bit of shopping after work/college or doing anything bar getting the train home. Another issue is that most of these areas are well served by buses and the buses provide a far better service with more options than the train ever could.

Most of the line is restricted to about 25mph and the level crossings and accommodation crossings will make it impossible to make great inroads(past 40mph) on the speeds on the line, it is not economically viable, it is not needed.

the corridor is economically viable for rail, it is needed by those who use it. now if IE don't wish to provide that service just because then that is their choice. but no point in wasting money on bus replacement services as nobody what soever will use them.

Grandeeod

Banjoxed wrote: »

Dry your eyes, mate. There's the squillion page corral thread for that sort of thing.

When you mix politics with rail reopenings/development in Ireland, it's a recipe for disaster. Since the late 1970s CIE have wanted to close 3 particular lines.

Limerick Junct. - Waterford.
Waterford - Rosslare.(associated junction)
Ballybrophy - Limerick. (associated junction)

One has gone. One will go soon. The other will follow quickly.

All that is set against a background of the WRC, because it is a similar line. So let's not get too upset if the WRC finds it's way into this thread. It's comparisons to the fate of the thread title is a bit like a little holiday from that "other" thread.

Fred Swanson

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foggy_lad

end of the road wrote: »

the corridor is economically viable for rail, it is needed by those who use it. now if IE don't wish to provide that service just because then that is their choice. but no point in wasting money on bus replacement services as nobody what soever will use them.

The same was said about the railway between Waterford and Rosslare, that it was needed by the people that used it, but it became economically unviable because so few people used it. All those currently using the train can be accommodated on a bus a few times a day between Ballybrophy and Limerick at a fraction of the cost of running the train.

Only a handful of people currently use the Waterford-Limk Jcn line and because of the low numbers the amount available to spend on the line and operations has been cut. There is now only one train set on the line and one crew afaik where there were two trains and 2 crews a few years ago.

Grandeeod

Deedsie wrote: »

It's a shame in my opinion, if this was designated as the main Limerick to Dublin train with improved journey times it would have plenty of users.

Cork - Dublin has a direct line, Galway to Dublin has a direct line. Why not Limerick?

Its actually very simple and in the context of a 1970s railway rationalising itself, it did make sense.

Mainline to Cork upgraded and then Limerick Junction to Limerick upgraded, combined with the direct curve.

To save the line I would suggest something more than a direct curve at Ballybrophy.

end of the road

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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indeed. in fact the NTA won't give IE grief full stop.

foggy_lad wrote: »

The same was said about the railway between Waterford and Rosslare, that it was needed by the people that used it, but it became economically unviable because so few people used it.

because it was and still is true. it didn't become "economically unviable." it became a joke because it was completely ran down over decades and the rest. in fact, very few knew there was still a passenger service on the line.
it is a line that actually does have a competitive advantage over road (even the new-ross by-pass when it is built may not change that but we will see) .

foggy_lad wrote: »

All those currently using the train can be accommodated on a bus a few times a day between Ballybrophy and Limerick at a fraction of the cost of running the train.

yeah sure, but the rail users are unlikely to want it. if they change their minds there are existing bus services as it is, so the bus replacement would be a waste of everyone's time. the train dispite it's faults meets their needs. as i said, if IE/NTA don't want to provide that service so be it but no point in wasting money on alternatives not wanted by those using the train.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Only a handful of people currently use the Waterford-Limk Jcn line and because of the low numbers the amount available to spend on the line and operations has been cut. There is now only one train set on the line and one crew afaik where there were two trains and 2 crews a few years ago.

only a hand full of people use waterford to limerick because it provides no service and has been ran down over decades. the amount availible to spend on the line and operations was never cut, it was simply never given in the first place because IE want it gone "just because" . the train services were cut from the previous number to their current number to remove the shift and shift costs only.

foggy_lad

end of the road wrote: »

indeed. in fact the NTA won't give IE grief full stop.



because it was and still is true. it didn't become "economically unviable." it became a joke because it was completely ran down over decades and the rest. in fact, very few knew there was still a passenger service on the line.
it is a line that actually does have a competitive advantage over road (even the new-ross by-pass when it is built may not change that but we will see) .

You can't run a three times a day commuter service with all the extra costs like paying level crossing staff as well as at least two train crews on the off-chance that more than a few people will use it each day.

People all knew very well that it was still running but because they were all wanting it at different times to do different things it was not fit for purpose for most in the catchment area. IE tried several different time slots for the trains and then had to reduce the frequency and amount spent on it or be accused of wasting money!

yeah sure, but the rail users are unlikely to want it. if they change their minds there are existing bus services as it is, so the bus replacement would be a waste of everyone's time. the train dispite it's faults meets their needs. as i said, if IE/NTA don't want to provide that service so be it but no point in wasting money on alternatives not wanted by those using the train.

So your point is that IE should waste scarce funding on providing a service just because a few people want it despite having more frequent and far cheaper alternatives available?

"but the rail users are unlikely to want it." - Do you mean that they don't like buses because they are not trains? so should train services should be provided for a few at the expense of many others?

only a hand full of people use waterford to limerick because it provides no service and has been ran down over decades. the amount availible to spend on the line and operations was never cut, it was simply never given in the first place because IE want it gone "just because" . the train services were cut from the previous number to their current number to remove the shift and shift costs only.

If there were just a few more passengers there would be no issue, There used to be three trains each way on this line but due to people not using it the company had to decide that paying for two train crews and two train sets was not on for the numbers using the service.

Yet again they have tried to get more people using the service by tweaking the times all along but they are unable to compete with the much more flexible and more frequent buses and people using their cars.

end of the road

foggy_lad wrote: »

You can't run a three times a day commuter service with all the extra costs like paying level crossing staff as well as at least two train crews on the off-chance that more than a few people will use it each day.

no but you can provide a proper service, promote it, invest in it, and the rest and encourage usage of it and insure it meets people's needs. something we will never manage in ireland.

foggy_lad wrote: »

People all knew very well that it was still running but because they were all wanting it at different times to do different things it was not fit for purpose for most in the catchment area.

incorrect, few knew there was a passenger service on the line. i live not far from the area so i know what i'm talking about.

foggy_lad wrote: »

IE tried several different time slots for the trains and then had to reduce the frequency and amount spent on it or be accused of wasting money!

IE tried nothing of the sort foggy. the train was timed around the shift of the staff and getting them back to base, hence the early departure time of the evening train from waterford. wouldn't be surprised if the morning train was the same.

foggy_lad wrote: »

So your point is that IE should waste scarce funding on providing a service just because a few people want it despite having more frequent and far cheaper alternatives available?

my point is that IE should spend money providing a service that meets the needs of people, to insure more usage of public transport. if the more frequent and cheeper alternatives don't meet the needs of people, then bullying them into using them will backfire as it always has done.

foggy_lad wrote: »

"but the rail users are unlikely to want it." - Do you mean that they don't like buses because they are not trains? so should train services should be provided for a few at the expense of many others?

no, it's because the bus service cannot and will never meet their needs. if it did then they would be using the existing services and not the train.

foggy_lad wrote: »

If there were just a few more passengers there would be no issue, There used to be three trains each way on this line but due to people not using it the company had to decide that paying for two train crews and two train sets was not on for the numbers using the service.

actually there would be an issue. 40 years of railway politics and running down. due to the company wanting to close it "just because" the company decided to cut back services as part of making the line unattractive to users and running the line down.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Yet again they have tried to get more people using the service by tweaking the times all along but they are unable to compete with the much more flexible and more frequent buses and people using their cars.

they have tried nothing meaningful at all. anything they have done has been lip service, and only because a politician forced them to do it. they could compete with busses and cars if they didn't run the infrastructure down to almost nothing.

thomond2006

If the Limerick-Ballybrophy train is delayed, I assume the main line train to Dublin doesn't wait around?

Example: If I arrived to Ballybrophy at 19:24 on Sunday, the main line train arrives 19:27. What if I arrive at Ballybrophy 10-15 minutes late? I'm bunched?

foggy_lad

thomond2006 wrote: »

If the Limerick-Ballybrophy train is delayed, I assume the main line train to Dublin doesn't wait around?

Example: If I arrived to Ballybrophy at 19:24 on Sunday, the main line train arrives 19:27. What if I arrive at Ballybrophy 10-15 minutes late? I'm bunched?

You would have a long wait for the next train that stops there at 06:40 next morning. There are no Cork-Dublin services stopping at Ballybrophy on Sundays so I would imagine if the slow train was delayed or terminated en route then the Limk-Dub train would be held or a later Cork-Dub train stopped at Ballybrophy and all the other stops that the Limerick train stops at.

foggy_lad

end of the road wrote: »

no but you can provide a proper service, promote it, invest in it, and the rest and encourage usage of it and insure it meets people's needs. something we will never manage in ireland.



incorrect, few knew there was a passenger service on the line. i live not far from the area so i know what i'm talking about.



IE tried nothing of the sort foggy. the train was timed around the shift of the staff and getting them back to base, hence the early departure time of the evening train from waterford. wouldn't be surprised if the morning train was the same.



my point is that IE should spend money providing a service that meets the needs of people, to insure more usage of public transport. if the more frequent and cheeper alternatives don't meet the needs of people, then bullying them into using them will backfire as it always has done.



no, it's because the bus service cannot and will never meet their needs. if it did then they would be using the existing services and not the train.



actually there would be an issue. 40 years of railway politics and running down. due to the company wanting to close it "just because" the company decided to cut back services as part of making the line unattractive to users and running the line down.



they have tried nothing meaningful at all. anything they have done has been lip service, and only because a politician forced them to do it. they could compete with busses and cars if they didn't run the infrastructure down to almost nothing.

All this has been thrashed out dozens of times before for the Waterford-rosslare line, if people don't use it they will lose it. People along the line have not been using the train as it is not what they need or want, it stopped being viable when the beet traffic ended.

Many people blame IR for cutting back the line and for running trains at odd times but hey why don't these people work for IR if they are soo good at planning train paths and timetables?

IR have done everything possible with limited resources to promote and make this line viable but people just won't use it. Would you have the Sligo line ending at Longford just to keep this line? or Rosslare stopped at Gorey or Arklow?

I am not getting into another to and fro about this as this is my last response to you about it.

ClovenHoof

Does anyone know or can explain the reason why the direct curve at Ballybrophy was reversed back in the 1960s?

BTW that station should be closed - if the direct curve was restored - with non stop service between Portlaoise and Roscrea. All this nonsense about 'we would have to move Ballybrophy up the line!!!! cost Bazillions!!!" is the classic hysteria tactic that CIE have used over the years when lateral thinking has been offered to them.

Screw Ballybrophy, give Roscrea and Nenagh decent direct rail services.

God almighty how expensive is a simple turnout and signals...to start with.

trellheim

It's ridiculous the way it is currently set up.

If your motive is to quietly run a line down while appearing interested, it's not ridiculous at all.

Del.Monte

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Does anyone know or can explain the reason why the direct curve at Ballybrophy was reversed back in the 1960s?

BTW that station should be closed - if the direct curve was restored - with non stop service between Portlaoise and Roscrea. All this nonsense about 'we would have to move Ballybrophy up the line!!!! cost Bazillions!!!" is the classic hysteria tactic that CIE have used over the years when lateral thinking has been offered to them.

Screw Ballybrophy, give Roscrea and Nenagh decent direct rail services.

God almighty how expensive is a simple turnout and signals...to start with.

There never was a direct curve at Ballybrophy but that is what is needed.

Fred Swanson

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end of the road

foggy_lad wrote: »

All this has been thrashed out dozens of times before for the Waterford-rosslare line, if people don't use it they will lose it. People along the line have not been using the train as it is not what they need or want, it stopped being viable when the beet traffic ended.

Many people blame IR for cutting back the line and for running trains at odd times but hey why don't these people work for IR if they are soo good at planning train paths and timetables?

IR have done everything possible with limited resources to promote and make this line viable but people just won't use it. Would you have the Sligo line ending at Longford just to keep this line? or Rosslare stopped at Gorey or Arklow?

I am not getting into another to and fro about this as this is my last response to you about it.

incorrect. IE are to blame for cutting back the line, they don't want it and a few other lines "because"
what would be the point in us bothering to try work for IE? we would never be able to make changes for the better. IR have done little to nothing with limited resources to improve a number of lines because they aren't wanted for "reasons"
i would be fighting for both the sligo and rosslare lines to end where they do as they are both viable dispite everything and almost provide a service that meet the needs of their users, something the alternative busses can't (dispite plenty existing from wexford at least)
those who have witnessed first hand how IE operate in terms of certain lines are no liers.

McAlban

Del.Monte wrote: »

There never was a direct curve at Ballybrophy but that is what is needed.

True, never was a Curve,

That and an Island Junction station would suffice. Serving both Lines.

MrJones2013

McAlban wrote: »

Commuter rail in the Limerick Area is probably a huge untapped market, not getting into the discussion about the Ennis Line, the problems with which are discussed at length elsewhere. But there are 3 Closed Stations on that line and a demolished station in Longpavement.

[Crayonism] I wonder what a P&R at Ballycar&Newmarket would do for the WRC[/Crayonism]

It always astounds me that Planning is done piecemeal by IR in relation to services such as this. Or as I like to think they think horizontally along lines and never take the helicopter view.

Genuine question, where are the 3 closed stations on that line? Sixmilebridge is one I presume, where are the other two?

foggy_lad

MrJones2013 wrote: »

Genuine question, where are the 3 closed stations on that line? Sixmilebridge is one I presume, where are the other two?

Crusheen and Tubber are marked on Google maps as closed stations.

MrJones2013

foggy_lad wrote: »

Crusheen and Tubber are marked on Google maps as closed stations.

Cheers, I'm on the phone and I couldn't see them on the google maps app.

GM228

foggy_lad wrote: »

Crusheen and Tubber are marked on Google maps as closed stations.

Crusheer and Tubber are between Ennis and Athenry. The OP mentions the Ennis line which is Limerick-Ennis and has a lot more than 3 closed stations as follows:-

Longpavement, Meelick, Cratloe, Ballycar & Newmarket, Ardsollus & Quinn and Clarecastle.

Between Ennis and Athenry:-

Crusheen, Tubber, Gort, Ardrahan and Craughwell.

jacksie66

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