Limerick-Ballybrophy Line

Teddy455

Do much people use the service on the line?
What are load factors?

With the new eco village in Cloughjordan that may increase people using the service.

It would be good if they ran Limerick-Dublin service on the line as an alternative to Limerick Junction or even Limerick-Portlaoise commuter service.

OurLadyofKnock

Teddy455 wrote: »

Do much people use the service on the line?
What are load factors?

With the new eco village in Cloughjordan that may increase people using the service.

It would be good if they ran Limerick-Dublin service on the line as an alternative to Limerick Junction or even Limerick-Portlaoise commuter service.

Like the Western Rail Corridor proper timetabling might make it meaningful - however like the WRC its primary function is as a potential sexual device for trainspotters.

mk6705

Teddy455 wrote: »

Do much people use the service on the line?
What are load factors?

With the new eco village in Cloughjordan that may increase people using the service.

It would be good if they ran Limerick-Dublin service on the line as an alternative to Limerick Junction or even Limerick-Portlaoise commuter service.

This line suffers from four problems:
1) Infrequent services.
2) It still uses semaphore signals.
3) Lack of passing loops.
4) Slow line speeds.

So as a result I can't imagine many people use it.

Judgement Day

Adro947 wrote: »

This line suffers from four problems:
1) Infrequent services.
2) It still uses semaphore signals.
3) Lack of passing loops.
4) Slow line speeds.

So as a result I can't imagine many people use it.

Yes, the service is infrequent as CIE have wished to close the line for decades. Line speeds are deliberately kept low despite a lot of track relaying. Passing loops could be installed but why if you wish to close the line. I fail to see why the use of semaphore signals has any bearing on anything. Incidentally, I have it from the horse's mouth last week that both Ballybrophy/Limerick and Waterford/Limerick Junction are about to follow the South Wexford into oblivion - perhaps we should start a Facebook page. :rolleyes:

mikemac

Irish Rail had no interest in that line

For years the train left Nenagh (biggest town) at 11:20 and returned around 3:30.
Perfect for some shopping and lunch in Limerick but useless for commuting

You could almost say the Irish Rail staff on the line were working a 9-5 shift and the timetable was to suit them

An action group was set up, they did detailed surveys and a lot of work. And eventually a commuter friendly timetable came in.
Of course the local politicans who did little or nothing jumped in at the end and claimed credit for the action group :rolleyes: Typical politicians you say

It competes with Bus Eireann and JJ Kavanaghs so it's difficult for them.

Speedy, Nenagh to Dublin is 2hours 20 minutes which is good. Overpriced though, €40 return or get the bus for €18 return. Sometimes Irish Rail have a €25 return and that's decent value
Going to Limerick, the bus is probably faster.

It has potential, better timetabling helps and you have thousands leaving North Tipp every morning to Limerick. A large proportion of them students. There was talk of closing Castleconnell and a new station near UL but that seems to have died a death. Not a bad idea
Better timetables and maybe some advertising in local papers would be a first step. Everyone knows BE and JJ Kavanaghs but not everyone knows the rail service

dowlingm

Adro947 wrote: »

This line suffers from four problems:
1) Infrequent services.
2) It still uses semaphore signals.
3) Lack of passing loops.
4) Slow line speeds.

So as a result I can't imagine many people use it.

Add 5) does not serve either of the major employment areas of Raheen or Castletroy, and in the case of the latter no connecting bus from Castleconnell.

Ridership is so poor that they terminate some Nenagh services at Birdhill because the train is empty. The entire conduct of that line though is one where you hope the intent is malign because if they were really trying to run this line properly the result exposes incompetence of the worst sort. By failing to replace the ETS with mini CTC by now they are running up the estimate for doing so when asked to estimate reinstatement cost at a later date.

Poxyshamrock

feelingstressed wrote: »

say

There was talk of closing Castleconnell and a new station near UL but that seems to have died a death. Not a bad idea

That's ridiculous though, as the closest the line passes to UL is beyond Finnegans Roundabout.

Deedsie

I don't know how they can expect this line to ever succeed if the arrival time in Dublin on a weekday morning is ~10:00 am. That is no use for commuting employees or students who require regular reliable transport to Dublin early on weekday mornings.

This train should be passing through Nenagh at 06:30 am at the latest for an arrival time in Heuston no later than 08:50 am.

When the Phoenix park tunnel opens that will also make this train more appealing as you will be able access Dublin City centre and the dart network with a changeover in Kildare.

It's just a waste of money the way the line is managed at the moment.

Irish rail could easily advertise this with "Avoid the N7 traffic" or "Avoid the roadworks" when the M7 widening project starts. Getting people back using the service should be priority number 1 and that requires a complete rethink on the timetable.

dowlingm

We'll have to see how valuable Alan Kelly's vote is to the next Dail before knowing how this is going to shake out, no?

Deedsie

dowlingm wrote: »

We'll have to see how valuable Alan Kelly's vote is to the next Dail before knowing how this is going to shake out, no?

This is a list of Municipal districts, county councils & Dáil TD's representing the area served by the Limerick - Nenagh - Ballybrophy line.

Dáíl constituencies:

Limerick City - 4 TD’s

Willie O’Dea

Maurice Quinlivan

Michael Noonan

Jan O’Sullivan

Tipperary – 5 TD’s

Michael Lowry

Mattie McGrath

Jackie Cahill

Séamus Healy

Alan Kelly

Offaly – 3 TD’s

Barry Cowen

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy

Carol Nolan

Laois – 3 TD’s

Seán Fleming

Charles Fleming

Brian Stanley


Municipal Districts:

Limerick City East

Nenagh

Templemore – Thurles

Borris - in – Ossorry / Mountmellick

Portlaoise


County Councils:

Limerick City & County Council

Tipperary County Council

Offaly County Council (though there is no station in Offaly, Cloughjordan & Roscrea would be the local stations for people in South West Offaly)

Laois County Council

savagethegoat

well the thread cam back from the dead, maybe the line can too

dowlingm

Deedsie, your list is as may be but Kelly is the one who pushed the direct train to Dublin, and IE gave big discounts and still nobody came. The bus services on the M7 will continue to beat it hands down without tens of millions more spend on the line.

Deedsie

dowlingm wrote: »

Deedsie, your list is as may be but Kelly is the one who pushed the direct train to Dublin, and IE gave big discounts and still nobody came. The bus services on the M7 will continue to beat it hands down without tens of millions more spend on the line.

The list are the representatives and the bodies that represent the people along the line. It is the responsibility of all of them to work for the best interests of their constituents. I suppose we could just leave it as it is at the moment. That's working well.

Currently the train arrives in Dublin at ~10:00 am, what use is that to anyone? Who is going to use that? The opening of the Phoenix Park Tunnel and the options that opens up to commuters is a potential game changer that wasn't available prior to this so a car or bus was the obvious option for people to use as Heuston station is not in the centre of Dublin nor is it connected to the DART network.

The M7/N7 is already at breaking point imagine how bad it will be when the M7 widening project begins? Surely 2 hours on the train will be better economically, environmentally etc

Jamie2k9

Deedsie wrote: »

I don't know how they can expect this line to ever succeed if the arrival time in Dublin on a weekday morning is ~10:00 am. That is no use for commuting employees or students who require regular reliable transport to Dublin early on weekday mornings.

This train should be passing through Nenagh at 06:30 am at the latest for an arrival time in Heuston no later than 08:50 am.

When the Phoenix park tunnel opens that will also make this train more appealing as you will be able access Dublin City centre and the dart network with a changeover in Kildare.

It's just a waste of money the way the line is managed at the moment.

Irish rail could easily advertise this with "Avoid the N7 traffic" or "Avoid the roadworks" when the M7 widening project starts. Getting people back using the service should be priority number 1 and that requires a complete rethink on the timetable.

It was called the €100,000 Alan Kelly Express which operated around 2013 and had an arrival in Dublin at around 08.15.

Deedsie

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

It was called the €100,000 Alan Kelly Express which operated around 2013 and had an arrival in Dublin at around 08.15.

Not disagreeing with you but any links to that? Also it is different situation now as soon as Phoenix park tunnel opens people will be able access the rest of the city not just Dublin 8 and a Luas to the city centre.

Edit, just found the links myself. One train arriving in Dublin Heuston before 09:00 am is all I'm advocating. What Alan Kelly introduced was ambitious but excessive.

Jamie2k9

Deedsie wrote: »

Not disagreeing with you but any links to that? Also it is different situation now as soon as Phoenix park tunnel opens people will be able access the rest of the city not just Dublin 8 and a Luas to the city centre.

Your making excuses with the PPT, why do all other intercity routes function with passengers.

Here were the service details and it was in 2012 not 2013:

- New 05.05 Limerick to Dublin via Nenagh service (Mon-Fri), serving Castleconnell (05.25), Birdhill (05.34), Nenagh (06.04), Cloughjordan (06.23) and Roscrea (06.43) arriving in Dublin Heuston at 08.33.

- The new 05.05 Limerick to Dublin via Nenagh service will also serve Ballybrophy (07.09), Portlaoise (07.25), Monasterevan (07.39), Kildare (07.49), Newbridge (07.56), Sallins (08.04), Hazelhatch (08.13) and Adamstown (08.18), giving a morning commuter servicefor these towns.

- A new additional evening connection will be provided for Nenagh branch customers off the 18.00 Heuston to Cork service at Ballybrophy (departs Ballybrophy at 19.15)

- The existing 16.45 Limerick to Ballybrophy via Nenagh service will be rescheduled to depart at 16.05, arriving at Ballybrophy at 18.00, and connecting with the 18.16 Ballybrophy to Dublin Heuston service.

- The existing 17.45 Limerick to Nenagh commuter service will now be rescheduled to depart at 17.05 from Limerick to Nenagh, and will continue to Cloughjordan and Ballybrophy also.

- The existing 10.05 Ballybrophy to Limerick via Nenagh will now arrive in Limerick at 11.59, and the 12.00 Limerick to Limerick Junction will now depart at 12.02, to allow a connection between these two trains.

The service changes will increase connections between Dublin and Nenagh from two each way currently to four Nenagh to Dublin connections and three Dublin to Nenagh connections daily.

The changes cost well in excess of 100,000 for a line which generated less than 800 per day.

Deedsie

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Your making excuses with the PPT, why do all other intercity routes function with passengers.

Here were the service details and it was in 2012 not 2013:

- New 05.05 Limerick to Dublin via Nenagh service (Mon-Fri), serving Castleconnell (05.25), Birdhill (05.34), Nenagh (06.04), Cloughjordan (06.23) and Roscrea (06.43) arriving in Dublin Heuston at 08.33.

- The new 05.05 Limerick to Dublin via Nenagh service will also serve Ballybrophy (07.09), Portlaoise (07.25), Monasterevan (07.39), Kildare (07.49), Newbridge (07.56), Sallins (08.04), Hazelhatch (08.13) and Adamstown (08.18), giving a morning commuter servicefor these towns.

- A new additional evening connection will be provided for Nenagh branch customers off the 18.00 Heuston to Cork service at Ballybrophy (departs Ballybrophy at 19.15)

- The existing 16.45 Limerick to Ballybrophy via Nenagh service will be rescheduled to depart at 16.05, arriving at Ballybrophy at 18.00, and connecting with the 18.16 Ballybrophy to Dublin Heuston service.

- The existing 17.45 Limerick to Nenagh commuter service will now be rescheduled to depart at 17.05 from Limerick to Nenagh, and will continue to Cloughjordan and Ballybrophy also.

- The existing 10.05 Ballybrophy to Limerick via Nenagh will now arrive in Limerick at 11.59, and the 12.00 Limerick to Limerick Junction will now depart at 12.02, to allow a connection between these two trains.

The service changes will increase connections between Dublin and Nenagh from two each way currently to four Nenagh to Dublin connections and three Dublin to Nenagh connections daily.

The changes cost well in excess of 100,000 for a line which generated less than 800 per day.

I edited my previous post just before reading this. It's impossible to disagree with you it obviously didn't work before. I am only advocating a change to the current train time in Nenagh from 07:38 to 06:30.

Not suggesting any additional services just a rescheduled timetable.

Just reading about the loss of service. All very depressing really, hard to fathom why people wouldn't use it.

LXFlyer

Deedsie wrote: »

I edited my previous post just before reading this. It's impossible to disagree with you it obviously didn't work before. I am only advocating a change to the current train time in Nenagh from 07:38 to 06:30.

Not suggesting any additional services just a rescheduled timetable.

Just reading about the loss of service. All very depressing really, hard to fathom why people wouldn't use it.

That's just too early - it's too slow to be a viable commuter route.

It does facilitate hospital appointments and day trips to Dublin.

Del.Monte

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Your making excuses with the PPT, why do all other intercity routes function with passengers.

Here were the service details and it was in 2012 not 2013:

- New 05.05 Limerick to Dublin via Nenagh service (Mon-Fri), serving Castleconnell (05.25), Birdhill (05.34), Nenagh (06.04), Cloughjordan (06.23) and Roscrea (06.43) arriving in Dublin Heuston at 08.33.

- The new 05.05 Limerick to Dublin via Nenagh service will also serve Ballybrophy (07.09), Portlaoise (07.25), Monasterevan (07.39), Kildare (07.49), Newbridge (07.56), Sallins (08.04), Hazelhatch (08.13) and Adamstown (08.18), giving a morning commuter servicefor these towns.

- A new additional evening connection will be provided for Nenagh branch customers off the 18.00 Heuston to Cork service at Ballybrophy (departs Ballybrophy at 19.15)

- The existing 16.45 Limerick to Ballybrophy via Nenagh service will be rescheduled to depart at 16.05, arriving at Ballybrophy at 18.00, and connecting with the 18.16 Ballybrophy to Dublin Heuston service.

- The existing 17.45 Limerick to Nenagh commuter service will now be rescheduled to depart at 17.05 from Limerick to Nenagh, and will continue to Cloughjordan and Ballybrophy also.

- The existing 10.05 Ballybrophy to Limerick via Nenagh will now arrive in Limerick at 11.59, and the 12.00 Limerick to Limerick Junction will now depart at 12.02, to allow a connection between these two trains.

The service changes will increase connections between Dublin and Nenagh from two each way currently to four Nenagh to Dublin connections and three Dublin to Nenagh connections daily.

The changes cost well in excess of 100,000 for a line which generated less than 800 per day.

Limerick to Dublin in three and half hours and you wonder why nobody availed of the service? :rolleyes:

Jamie2k9

Del.Monte wrote: »

Limerick to Dublin in three and half hours and you wonder why nobody availed of the service? :rolleyes:

It's only serving Limerick because it's the crew base, Limerick have 5/6 peak morning services with a 2 hour journey.

The point of the service was Nenagh passengers.

Del.Monte

In 1960 the 08.15 ex.Limerick via Ballybrophy did the journey in 3 hours 15 minutes and had a buffet car. The simple truth of the matter is that CIE have wanted to close the branch for decades and are unfit to be allowed to operate it. The junction at Ballybrophy should have been completely altered years ago to allow through running to Dublin but what would I know.

Deedsie

Del.Monte wrote: »

Limerick to Dublin in three and half hours and you wonder why nobody availed of the service? :rolleyes:

It can do the route in 2 hours. It's hard to know what the best approach would be. The train should have to pass through Nenagh at 06:30 as there is no hope of ever having large numbers when the train doesn't arrive until 10:00 am

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

- The new 05.05 Limerick to Dublin via Nenagh service will also serve Ballybrophy (07.09), Portlaoise (07.25), Monasterevan (07.39), Kildare (07.49), Newbridge (07.56), Sallins (08.04), Hazelhatch (08.13) and Adamstown (08.18), giving a morning commuter servicefor these towns.

and with those stops and journey times we are surprised nobody used it from the nenagh line? slow speeds on the branch and then stopping at almost every station from portlaoise on. a cynic would say it was set up to definitely fail but shur who knows.

Jamie2k9

end of the road wrote: »

and with those stops and journey times we are surprised nobody used it from the nenagh line? slow speeds on the branch and then stopping at almost every station from portlaoise on. a cynic would say it was set up to definitely fail but shur who knows.

3 points
1 - It was added in middle of a timetable so if it was non stop it would of been signal checked
2 - Why would IE give a valuable peak slot to a service which everybody know would never have acceptable uptake.
3 - Google Maps have the car taking 2h45m (to Heuston Station) that excludes peak traffic and in my experience Google Maps is based on doing a content 120km/h whcih is not realistic so expect we are talking over 3 hours by car.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Why would IE give a valuable peak slot to a service which everybody know would never have acceptable uptake.

what valuable peak slot. well, everyone didn't know it would completely fail. we all knew it would possibly have small usership, and would take longer then via thirles. but i doubt anyone suspected they would add half or more of the stops between portlaoise and dublin onto it. even though it is something one shouldn't be surprised at.
if they were interested in the railway at all, and were interested in trying to get some custom to that service, then they would have insured, ah, forget it.

savagethegoat

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

3 points
1 - It was added in middle of a timetable so if it was non stop it would of been signal checked
2 - Why would IE give a valuable peak slot to a service which everybody know would never have acceptable uptake.
3 - Google Maps have the car taking 2h45m (to Heuston Station) that excludes peak traffic and in my experience Google Maps is based on doing a content 120km/h whcih is not realistic so expect we are talking over 3 hours by car.

In my experience the times given are generous. I did North Cork to Dublin Airport in 2.5 hours on Sunday....and kept to the limit too

Chcked AA routeplanner and they give 2 hr 7 mins Lim to Heuston. I Hour 37 mins Nenagh to Heuston.

Carawaystick

Population of Roscrea 8800
Population of Cloughjordan 850
Population of Birdhill 730
Population of Nenagh <10000

Now, how many of those want to go to Dublin in any given day? Or even Limerick?

Del.Monte

Carawaystick wrote: »

Population of Roscrea 8800
Population of Cloughjordan 850
Population of Birdhill 730
Population of Nenagh <10000

Now, how many of those want to go to Dublin in any given day? Or even Limerick?

Oh dear, is that really the best that you can do? Even if you exclude Limerick - which you have done - it should be possible to achieve reasonable loadings it
if properly priced, marketed and timings improved. Bus Eireann, JJ Kavanagh and private cars already prove that there's plenty of scope for developing the corridor.

savagethegoat

well surely that's because it is quicker by road...a quick look tells me it's about 2 hours by Bus and half an hour longer by train.

Del.Monte

savagethegoat wrote: »

well surely that's because it is quicker by road...a quick look tells me it's about 2 hours by Bus and half an hour longer by train.

There's not a lot in it time wise rail versus road.

Carawaystick

Del.Monte wrote: »

Oh dear, is that really the best that you can do? Even if you exclude Limerick - which you have done - it should be possible to achieve reasonable loadings it
if properly priced, marketed and timings improved. Bus Eireann, JJ Kavanagh and private cars already prove that there's plenty of scope for developing the corridor.

Yes, because there is a train from Limerick to Dublin that leaves an hour and 10 mins after the Ballybrophy line train and arrives 13 minutes before it...

Now maybe in some fantasy land, some people could be persuaded to switch over
but the pricing would have to tend towards zero.

The timings on the journey back from Dublin probably don't include the 20mins IÉ state to be in Heuston before a departure or the time to get from the city centre where a coach will leave/collect you to Heuston.