Limerick-Ballybrophy Line

savagethegoat

It's half an hour quicker by Bus Eireann and a whole hour quicker by car....that's a lot.

Deedsie

Carawaystick wrote: »

Population of Roscrea 8800
Population of Cloughjordan 850
Population of Birdhill 730
Population of Nenagh <10000

Now, how many of those want to go to Dublin in any given day? Or even Limerick?

An alternative perspective:

Population of former North Tipperary county council area was 70322 in 2011. Obviously 50% of that is close enough to Thurles station so say 35000?

Population of hinterland of Offaly & Laois close to Cloughjordan and Roscrea stations ~ 5000? (granted I am plucking that out of the sky)

Then you have the population around Annacotty/Castleconnel/Dalys Cross and arguably Castletroy? Another 10000 potential customers.

It could also be argued that the population of between Killaloe and Scariff could also be potential customers of the Birdhill station if it was marketed to them.

You may consider this fanciful but if Irish rail are serious about this line then they should be advertising to the populations in these areas. That is ~50000 people that live in close proximity to various stations on the Limerick - Nenagh - Ballybrophy line.


It should be advertised that there will be a Limerick - Nenagh - Ballybrophy line train every weekday morning arriving at Heuston station no later than 08:30 for transfers to Luas and Dublin bus. It should also be advertised that there will be a stop at Kildare station for those wishing to transfer onto the Phoenix park line and direct access to Drumcondra, Connolly, Tara, Pearse, Grand Canal Dock and the DART network in the heart of Dublin city.

tabbey

The speed on the branch is so slow that nobody uses the branch train, on occasion I have been the only passenger for part of the route. I often visit Roscrea or Nenagh, as well as Thurles, but 90% of the time I use the car.

This morning I visited Roscrea by car, as I was early, I called into Ballybrophy station about 0900. A crew member was sitting in the train with his thermos flask. Another employee was in the booking office. Although there were no other members of the public there at the time, it was clear that the mainline services were used, as there were about fifty cars parked there.

These car owners presumably drove from Nenagh and Roscrea along the motorway, and branched off for the last couple of miles to Ballybrophy to get the fast train to Dublin.

If trains from Limerick via Nenagh ran at normal mainline speed, and ran through to Dublin as they did forty years ago, I have no doubt people would use them.

It was crazy to relay the line with CWR some years ago, but refuse to stress the new rails, thus leaving long stretches of 25 mph limits.

I imagine IR would have closed the line a few years ago but for Alan Kelly. Now it survives but only as a zombie line. Finish the work and run a proper service at reasonable fares. Only then will IR geta return on their investment.

Deedsie

tabbey wrote: »

The speed on the branch is so slow that nobody uses the branch train, on occasion I have been the only passenger for part of the route. I often visit Roscrea or Nenagh, as well as Thurles, but 90% of the time I use the car.

This morning I visited Roscrea by car, as I was early, I called into Ballybrophy station about 0900. A crew member was sitting in the train with his thermos flask. Another employee was in the booking office. Although there were no other members of the public there at the time, it was clear that the mainline services were used, as there were about fifty cars parked there.

These car owners presumably drove from Nenagh and Roscrea along the motorway, and branched off for the last couple of miles to Ballybrophy to get the fast train to Dublin.

If trains from Limerick via Nenagh ran at normal mainline speed, and ran through to Dublin as they did forty years ago, I have no doubt people would use them.

It was crazy to relay the line with CWR some years ago, but refuse to stress the new rails, thus leaving long stretches of 25 mph limits.

I imagine IR would have closed the line a few years ago but for Alan Kelly. Now it survives but only as a zombie line. Finish the work and run a proper service at reasonable fares. Only then will IR geta return on their investment.

How much of an investment would it take to bring the line up to speed? Ballpark? What sections of the line need to be upgraded?

Jamie2k9

Deedsie wrote: »

How much of an investment would it take to bring the line up to speed? Ballpark? What sections of the line need to be upgraded?

Millions, the whole line is falling apart, rails are been replaced as needed however it wouldn't surprise me if it's rails that have been lifted on other parts of the network that are been put down. Needs a whole new signalling system as well.

Who in there right mind would put new rails down with no return.

dowlingm

The introduction of the Kelly express bolloxed the rest of the morning peak services around it too. Both here and RUI boards noted the dreadful start, which to be fair should have resulted in heads rolling in IE given that whatever test running had been done had wildly underestimated the running time. If it had ran to time it might have been spared a while, but the wreckage it was causing beyond Portlaoise couldn't be ignored.

IE played games with the branch scheduling generally (torpedoing the nascent PM commuter service to Nenagh ex Limerick market by moving departure to before 5pm) but even when the conditions were there the demand was not, especially with no Annacotty halt and even that too far from UL. The bus alternatives are more frequent, faster and more convenient, and it does no credit to pretend otherwise. IE wouldn't even divert trains down the Nenagh branch when works were being done between Ballybrophy and Limerick Junction.

Deedsie

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Millions, the whole line is falling apart, rails are been replaced as needed however it wouldn't surprise me if it's rails that have been lifted on other parts of the network that are been put down. Needs a whole new signalling system as well.

Who in there right mind would put new rails down with no return.

So they will just continue to keep the line trudging along with no one using it? I agree it's hard to justify investment without numbers using the service, but it just comes across as pointless the way it is now.

Which parts of the line are in worst condition/slowest speeds? Limerick to castleconnell? Castleconnell to Birdhill? Birdhill to Nenagh? Nenagh to Cloughjordan? Cloughjordan to Roscrea? Or Roscrea to Ballybrophy?

How much would a new signalling system cost?

As I am sure you can see I know very little about rail infrastructure but I am a supporter of public transport infrastructure particularly rail.

Jamie2k9

Deedsie wrote: »

So they will just continue to keep the line trudging along with no one using it? I agree it's hard to justify investment without numbers using the service, but it just comes across as pointless the way it is now.

Which parts of the line are in worst condition/slowest speeds? Limerick to castleconnell? Castleconnell to Birdhill? Birdhill to Nenagh? Nenagh to Cloughjordan? Cloughjordan to Roscrea? Or Roscrea to Ballybrophy?

How much would a new signalling system cost?
.

I'm sure they would prefer to close it as there is no business case for investment as usage will be like the WRC. It's a political line.

You are talking a couple of million for the signalling system, another few million to automate level crossings, another few million to upgrade bridges and full line renewal.

As for worst parts, not sure but would say the whole lot isn't in great nick, they have been relaying track over the last 18 months.

As I am sure you can see I know very little about rail infrastructure but I am a supporter of public transport infrastructure particularly rail

Every single line realistically could/needs some form of work and any additional funding will go to key intercity routes.

As for moving the 07.30 to 06.30 service, across all intercity routes such as Galway/Cork/Waterford/Limerick the 07.xx departures are the busiest service departing from the terminus and the first few stops. All earlier departures at 05.xx and 06.xx never fill up until they get to Carlow/Athlone/Limerick Junction/Thurles and stations closer to Dublin so moving the 07.30 service to 06.30 could do more harm than good.

New timetable lather this year, have your say then.

Best case would be to focus on traffic to Limerick.

Deedsie

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I'm sure they would prefer to close it as there is no business case for investment as usage will be like the WRC. It's a political line.

You are talking a couple of million for the signalling system, another few million to automate level crossings, another few million to upgrade bridges and full line renewal.

As for worst parts, not sure but would say the whole lot isn't in great nick, they have been relaying track over the last 18 months.



Every single line realistically could/needs some form of work and any additional funding will go to key intercity routes.

As for moving the 07.30 to 06.30 service, across all intercity routes such as Galway/Cork/Waterford/Limerick the 07.xx departures are the busiest service departing from the terminus and the first few stops. All earlier departures at 05.xx and 06.xx never fill up until they get to Carlow/Athlone/Limerick Junction/Thurles and stations closer to Dublin so moving the 07.30 service to 06.30 could do more harm than good.

New timetable lather this year, have your say then.

Best case would be to focus on traffic to Limerick.

Disappointing to hear it would cost €8-€10 million euro to get the line up to a decent standard. Thanks for the info though.


Is there any freight transport by rail on this line?

Del.Monte

Deedsie wrote: »

Disappointing to hear it would cost €8-€10 million euro to get the line up to a decent standard. Thanks for the info though.


Is there any freight transport by rail on this line?

No freight, not even a parcel or letter thanks to Irish Rail's enlightened attitude to such things.

Jamie2k9

Deedsie wrote: »

Disappointing to hear it would cost €8-€10 million euro to get the line up to a decent standard. Thanks for the info though.


Is there any freight transport by rail on this line?

Nope and that is a conservative cost, freight would require even more work for weight reasons. It's to close to Dublin anyway for a viable operation and roads are good in the area.

No freight, not even a parcel or letter thanks to Irish Rail's enlightened attitude to such things.

You mean a moving with the times, post is declining annually and people want packages delivered quickly.

Del.Monte

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Nope and that is a conservative cost, freight would require even more work for weight reasons. It's to close to Dublin anyway for a viable operation and roads are good in the area.



You mean a moving with the times, post is declining annually and people want packages delivered quickly.

Absolute tosh, there's heaps of potential for a Fastrack operation - even now - and most of the staff that previously handled it at local stations spend their time watching TV or keeping an eye out for roving area management. Dispensing with parcels traffic was just another chipping away at the relevance of the railway. Realistically, as currently operated it's impossible to justify rail outside the Greater Dublin area.

Look what An Post have to say about their increase in parcels traffic. http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/an-post-plans-up-to-80000-delivery-boxes-276452.html

Jamie2k9

Del.Monte wrote: »

Absolute tosh, there's heaps of potential for a Fastrack operation - even now - and most of the staff that previously handled it at local stations spend their time watching TV or keeping an eye out for roving area management. Dispensing with parcels traffic was just another chipping away at the relevance of the railway. Realistically, as currently operated it's impossible to justify rail outside the Greater Dublin area.

So why did it decline?

Del.Monte

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

So why did it decline?

It didn't decline, it was jettisoned because it was the easy option and when the ICRs were designed there was no provision made for parcels. Combine the daft design with CIE's obsession of getting rid of train staff....

foggy_lad

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

So why did it decline?

The cost and inefficiency of the whole operation as well as the multi handling of items, most things had to be brought to a rail depot or station by van then processed and loaded onto a trolley for the first leg of the journey as soon as an appropriate train arrived, then off to another larger depot for sorting then onto another train to destination and wait for another van/lorry to deliver to the final destination, all that handling and switching between modes costs a fortune.

Compare that to a modern efficient courier operation and we have a clear winner.

They were also on strike so often that reliability became the main issue. nobody wants goods locked away in a rail depot for weeks on end.

Deedsie

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

You are talking a couple of million for the signalling system, another few million to automate level crossings, another few million to upgrade bridges and full line renewal.

As for worst parts, not sure but would say the whole lot isn't in great nick, they have been relaying track over the last 18 months.

How many level crossings are there along the Limerick - Nenagh - Ballybrophy line? The only one I know is the one that crosses the R445 (old N7) at Sallymount.

Relaying track over the last 18 months. Is that a positive upgrade?

foggy_lad

Deedsie wrote: »

How many level crossings are there along the Limerick - Nenagh - Ballybrophy line? The only one I know is the one that crosses the R445 (old N7) at Sallymount.

Relaying track over the last 18 months. Is that a positive upgrade?

Something like 25 mostly manned on roads and then dozens of farm access crossings on lanes.

Fred Swanson

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Jamie2k9

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Where did you pull that average out of, I would say it was less than that

Fred Swanson

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Jamie2k9

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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I see, surprised it was that high!

Deedsie

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Well said Fred,

He tried to improve the line, fair play to him... I read a lot about the line over the last few weeks and I am wondering has there ever been a study done investigating the feasibility of adding a spur off the line just South of Borris in Ossory to the main line South of Portlaoise? What would it cost?

It seems like the best option by far to make the line faster & thus economically viable. I think supporters of making the line viable again should be campaigning for such a study to be done?

I dont expect this to happen in the medium term but if an active and vocal campaign began to advocate for it maybe someday it could happen.

Del.Monte

Deedsie wrote: »

Well said Fred,

He tried to improve the line, fair play to him... I read a lot about the line over the last few weeks and I am wondering has there ever been a study done investigating the feasibility of adding a spur off the line just South of Borris in Ossory to the main line South of Portlaoise? What would it cost?

It seems like the best option by far to make the line faster & thus economically viable. I think supporters of making the line viable again should be campaigning for such a study to be done?

I dont expect this to happen in the medium term but if an active and vocal campaign began to advocate for it maybe someday it could happen.

It's all been said before but the same few of us ranting on Boards.ie is unlikely to influence change.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055855540

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77449291&postcount=39

Deedsie

Del.Monte wrote: »

It's all been said before but the same few of us ranting on Boards.ie is unlikely to influence change.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055855540

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77449291&postcount=39

Ah ya I understand that but I was moving onto the post boards phase of the process now, we could be trying to think of the interest groups affected:

Municipal Districts & County Councils to see if it could be included in their development plans ,Seán & Mary public, their Dáil representatives.

Who to contact to see if it has officially been considered and investigated in the past, department of transport, NTA, Railway procurement agency.

Environmentally would it help Ireland reach emissions targets. Would the department of the environment support the project on green grounds.

Could it be included in the next transport plan? If not, why not? Transport 31? There may be more deserving lines but this line is unsustainable as is, shít or step away from the pot.

thomond2006

What is the reason for this line being so slow? Poor condition of the track?

foggy_lad

thomond2006 wrote: »

What is the reason for this line being so slow? Poor condition of the track?

A combination of track, signalling, poor points, also the line has not been invested in due to the low number of potential customers in the catchment area and the alternatives being faster and often cheaper.

thomond2006

foggy_lad wrote: »

A combination of track, signalling, poor points, also the line has not been invested in due to the low number of potential customers in the catchment area and the alternatives being faster and often cheaper.

I see online that IR applied to have the line shut. What became of it? It's a pity that the line is poor as I would use it to go to Castleconnell which is close to home.

foggy_lad

thomond2006 wrote: »

I see online that IR applied to have the line shut. What became of it? It's a pity that the line is poor as I would use it to go to Castleconnell which is close to home.

Some political interference from Alan Kelly kept the line open for a few years longer with a couple of peak time services that were aimed at people commuting but these were plagued with issues due to the points and switchover to the mainline etc. there was also a lack of passengers wanting to use the services, it was unreliable and slower for most people than driving to Limerick or Thurles and getting the train. the line is just not viable.

end of the road

thomond2006 wrote: »

I see online that IR applied to have the line shut. What became of it? It's a pity that the line is poor as I would use it to go to Castleconnell which is close to home.

it will likely be the next sacrificial lamb for when the politicians want a huge cut. in answer to your question, as far as i know the track isn't tamped properly. they have layed some continuous welded rail as used almost everywhere else, but how much has been laid i'm not sure. the junction layout at ballybroaphy is an issue also. unfortunately 40 years of being left to rot doesn't get undone easily if at all.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Some political interference from Alan Kelly kept the line open for a few years longer with a couple of peak time services that were aimed at people commuting but these were plagued with issues due to the points and switchover to the mainline etc. there was also a lack of passengers wanting to use the services, it was unreliable and slower for most people than driving to Limerick or Thurles and getting the train. the line is just not viable.

the line is viable, just not in it's current state. it has a good catchment in nenagh itself. however with it's continuing run down there is only going to be one outcome.

ClovenHoof

It should be the main Dublin to Limerick line. I know it is money, but all the line needs is for the curve to face towards Dublin and offer direct services to Roscrea and Nenagh.

Simple, line saved!