DART airport plan on track as Metro North hits the buffers

superelliptic

great1 wrote: »

can't see why it is thought non-sensible...

short, direct, cheap, all we can afford given that the IMF are calling the shots : )

sorry if this is the "wrong answer"

Short, Direct, cheap. not really. more like: Overly long, an indirect dog's leg route, waste of €300M that could be used for other things.

I think the possibility of MN being dead is really bad news. Its proposed route is excellent, and would service a massive number of people and institutions though the north city, DCU, the airport, swords, etc, etc.

If they arent going to build this, then they should just build DU, and forget the Dart airport extension. Why spend €300M on a half-assed, meandering, and ultimatly slow 'solution' that will never achieve a shadow of the potential MN/DU has,and will only get in the way in the coming decades when MN will be getting build?

In my opinion, this is where politicians have the massive potential to make a balls-up big enough to be seen from space. FF ruined us by trying to please everyone, and not wanting to risk making "unpopular" decisions, and my fear is that Leo and the lads might try the same tactic, by assuming they can build a Dart extension to placate MN supporters, and keep anti-metro constituants happy by telling them how cheap it was.

I know times are tight, but MN and DU are the ONLY intelligent & realistic solutions for transport in the greater Dublin area. Around them, an honest to goodness 21 centuary integrated transport solution could be deveolped, by marrying in Dublin bus and the Dublin Bike scheme at the metro stops, but a double track Dart to the airport only? Aside from PR and short term politics, what the hell is the point?


Right, sorry for the rant - that just had to come out, or I'd never get any sleep tonight

Geuze

CIE wrote: »

Dublin "low-density"? The city's got a way higher density than other cities that have larger railway systems (e.g. Köln/Bonn, Frankfurt, Stockholm; the list goes on). .

Koln is way higher density than Dublin.

Within 2km of O'Connell street there aloads of 1-storey and 2-storey houses.

Koln is mostly 4-6 stoey blocks of apartments.

Cool Mo D

Geuze wrote: »

Koln is way higher density than Dublin.

Within 2km of O'Connell street there aloads of 1-storey and 2-storey houses.

Koln is mostly 4-6 stoey blocks of apartments.

Over the city council area though, Dublin is twice as dense as Cologne. Just because there are taller buildings, doesn't necessarily mean higher density. Closely spaced 2/3 storey buildings can be denser then widely spaced 8 storey buildings. Like how the new Ballymun is denser than the old Ballymun.

Aard

What will it take to banish the myth that Dublin is a low-density city? Low-rise does not equal low-density!

Cookie_Monster

Aard wrote: »

What will it take to banish the myth that Dublin is a low-density city? Low-rise does not equal low-density!

top cities by density:
http://www.citymayors.com/statistics/largest-cities-density-125.html

Dublin: 80th in the world (2,950 per sq km), good few EU ones above and some 3rd world slum filled places too (Mumbai, Jakarta, Birmingham)

The Dublin region (wikipedia) is about 1,290 per sq km

Aard

Slums generally have massive population density, and are extremely poor. Not exactly comparable. Also, the list contains a whole lot of East Asian cities that rival even the big EU cities with amazing rail systems (Paris, Berlin, London). In fact, the first EU city comes in at #40. The density of the Dublin Region (a defined term indicating the old County Dublin) is a useless stat: it is basically just an administrative area with arbitrary boundaries -- absolutely no bearing on city area/population/density.

If we go by EU cities only, Dublin is doing pretty well in terms of population density -- it's #17 in the EU. It shows that, of the cities on the list with lower densities than Dublin, only Porto and Antwerp don't have metro systems. But even they have underground light rail in the city centre.

The cities with asterisks below have populations similar to Dublin. Also, there are many other cities in the EU that do not make the population-density cut and aren't on the list at all, yet still have decent metro systems: Toulouse, Valencia, Newcastle, Seville, Bucharest, Nuremberg, Marseille, and Sofia to name a few.

Also, a little OT, economically Dublin is considered the 26th most important city in the world. (http://www.lboro.ac.uk/gawc/world2008t.html Revised 2010.)

So...

Dublin's got the population, the density, the importance. What more is needed to convince people that Dublin needs an urban rail system? Or will the Irish capital somehow break the mould and manage ad infinitum with its current set-up, or indeed the grim prospect of BRT?

EU cities by density:

1. Athens
2. Madrid
3. London
4. Barcelona
5. Warsaw
6. Naples
7. Katowice
8. Leeds
9. Manchester
10. Birmingham
11. Berlin
12. Paris
13. Vienna
14. Glasgow *
15. Munich
16. Stuttgart *
17. Dublin
18. Rome
19. Dusseldorf
20. Milan
21. Stockholm
22. Turin
23. Porto *
24. Budapest
25. Lisbon
26. Rotterdam
27. Cologne/Bonn
28. Frankfurt
29. Hamburg
30. Brussels
31. Lille *
32. Helsinki *
33. Copenhagen
34. Antwerp *

dynamick

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

top cities by density:
http://www.citymayors.com/statistics/largest-cities-density-125.html

Dublin: 80th in the world (2,950 per sq km), good few EU ones above and some 3rd world slum filled places too (Mumbai, Jakarta, Birmingham)

The Dublin region (wikipedia) is about 1,290 per sq km

It's hard to measure density usefully and uniformly for comparisons like this.

Where do you draw the line for the city and the suburban area? This will make a huge difference to the results. What about areas like Bull Island and Phoenix Park? These are included in Dublin's area, substantially reducing density.

And what about jobs? City density numbers reflect residents, not workers, yet a place like Eastpoint would have no residents and still be a popular destination for commuters.

To decide the viability of a rail line, what really matters in the density of homes, students and offices in the vicinity of the proposed railway stations. Outside of that, the city can be as low density as you like.

Victor made up a map of Dublin densities based on census 2006 data at electoral district level:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/2160/132196.PNG

The CSO will release the first 2011 census data in the first couple of weeks of July this year, providing excitement for nerds like me \o/

So we will see if much has changed with densities. And this year places of work and education have been geocoded, so it will be possible to count how many workers and students are based in a location and the details of their commutes.

bk

dynamick wrote: »

Victor made up a map of Dublin densities based on census 2006 data at electoral district level:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/2160/132196.PNG

Interesting map, so it looks like DART and the dart spur, for the most part run through relatively lightly density areas (for a city).

LUAS runs through pretty dense areas and Metro North would run through by far the most densely populated areas of the city (with the exception of the airport area, but of course lots of people (workers and travelers) would board there also.

I think it says it all.

Mr Simpson

I'd like to see this spur happen, but as an addition to other projects. It would be good for people living anywhere along the northern line as far as belfast.

markpb

mmcn90 wrote: »

I'd like to see this spur happen, but as an addition to other projects. It would be good for people living anywhere along the northern line as far as belfast.

Realistically for people north of Drogheda, the spur would make no difference. IC trains probably won't serve the airport because of the amount of time it would take (not to mention the extra track work and more complicated junction) so they'll still have to go all the way to Connolly and then change to get back out.

loyatemu

got the Aircoach from Greystones during the week - took 1hr 20m during the rush hour (serious delays along the strand road, but most of the rest of the route has bus lanes and obviously from the Eastlink to the Airport is very quick). On my way back I landed at 1720 and was able to get out of T2 and onto the Aircoach by 1730. Free wifi too.

The DART takes 55m from Greystones to Connolly, so an airport link would not be significantly faster.

The airport is now very well served by buses from all over the city and country, the tunnel and widened M50 have improved access no end - I really can't see the point of this project. I was unconvinced about MN before, but at least it served some areas that don't already have good public transport.

OurLadyofKnock

Aard wrote: »

What will it take to banish the myth that Dublin is a low-density city?

Deport Frank McDonald.

Mr Simpson

Only the dart would have to serve the airport, you could just let the other trains stop at clongriffin or howth junction

Zebra3

Aard wrote: »

EU cities by density:

1. Athens
2. Madrid
3. London
4. Barcelona
5. Warsaw
6. Naples
7. Katowice
8. Leeds
9. Manchester
10. Birmingham
11. Berlin
12. Paris
13. Vienna
14. Glasgow *
15. Munich
16. Stuttgart *
17. Dublin
18. Rome
19. Dusseldorf
20. Milan
21. Stockholm
22. Turin
23. Porto *
24. Budapest
25. Lisbon
26. Rotterdam
27. Cologne/Bonn
28. Frankfurt
29. Hamburg
30. Brussels
31. Lille *
32. Helsinki *
33. Copenhagen
34. Antwerp *

I find it very hard to believe that both Copenhagen and Frankfurt are behind Dublin. :eek:

lucernarian

I want to add a caveat to that list: how many cities have local authority boundaries larger than Dublin's and may take in more countryside? How was Dublin's boundary defined? I would assume Dublin city council's area is a lot more dense than Co. Dublin as a whole, mountains and all.

syklops

THE high-profile €2.5bn Metro North project is set to be shelved in favour of a 20-year-old plan to build an extension of the DART line to Dublin Airport, the Irish Independent has learned........build a 6.5km spur

Please excuse my ignorance, but can anyone explain to me why it will take 20 years to build 6.5 km of Dart line?

Also, according to reports, it will run every 15 minutes. Is there any reason why they dont run it more often? When you get off a flight and just missed the last one, 15 minutes can seem like a long time to wait for the next one.

Also, would it not have been smarter to build this before T2? <-stupid question perhaps.

markpb

syklops wrote: »

Please excuse my ignorance, but can anyone explain to me why it will take 20 years to build 6.5 km of Dart line?

The plan is 20 years old but didn't go anywhere because FF were incapable of making infrastructure decisions that aren't roads.

Also, according to reports, it will run every 15 minutes. Is there any reason why they dont run it more often? When you get off a flight and just missed the last one, 15 minutes can seem like a long time to wait for the next one.

Because there is other traffic on the nothern line and a limit to the number of trains per hour that the signalling system and stations can handle.

Also, would it not have been smarter to build this before T2? <-stupid question perhaps.

Yes

Bottle_of_Smoke

syklops wrote: »

Please excuse my ignorance, but can anyone explain to me why it will take 20 years to build 6.5 km of Dart line?

Also, according to reports, it will run every 15 minutes. Is there any reason why they dont run it more often? When you get off a flight and just missed the last one, 15 minutes can seem like a long time to wait for the next one.

Also, would it not have been smarter to build this before T2? <-stupid question perhaps.

The plan was made 20 years ago but abandoned. It won't take 20 years to build.

I live on the MN route so a bit disappointed but fully acknowledge we can't afford it now.

This dart plan seems a good idea to me, even if we had metro north. If you live in Clontarf/Killester etc there's no easy way to get to the airport. Will be handy for anyone near any part of the dart line.

schemingbohemia

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

The plan was made 20 years ago but abandoned. It won't take 20 years to build.

I live on the MN route so a bit disappointed but fully acknowledge we can't afford it now.

This dart plan seems a good idea to me, even if we had metro north. If you live in Clontarf/Killester etc there's no easy way to get to the airport. Will be handy for anyone near any part of the dart line.

Spending the guts of a billion to make things a bit more handy for a few people in Clontarf makes no sense. The €300m figure is plucked from the sky, no basis in reality and forgets about all the other elements of spend on the northern line required to make it even a possibility, and for what - 4 trains an hour to get into the city centre slower than by bus through the port tunnel?

Bottle_of_Smoke

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Spending the guts of a billion to make things a bit more handy for a few people in Clontarf makes no sense. The €300m figure is plucked from the sky, no basis in reality and forgets about all the other elements of spend on the northern line required to make it even a possibility, and for what - 4 trains an hour to get into the city centre slower than by bus through the port tunnel?

Not just Clontarf though. Anywhere along the dartline, north and south. For future generations it will also be good for travelling from one side of the northside to the other. If MN is eventually built this line could help connect raheny/killester etc to santry/ballymun/glasnevin.

Though you are perhaps right about the cost, and maybe all these big projects should be suspended for now. Just generally speaking I think its a good idea. The entire city needs better connections and services.

lucernarian

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Not just Clontarf though. Anywhere along the dartline, north and south. For future generations it will also be good for travelling from one side of the northside to the other. If MN is eventually built this line could help connect raheny/killester etc to santry/ballymun/glasnevin.

Though you are perhaps right about the cost, and maybe all these big projects should be suspended for now. Just generally speaking I think its a good idea. The entire city needs better connections and services.

I think that's a fair point, when the Dart Underground and Metro North are out of the way it is an idea that would have merit if it could be built for the dubious figure of €300 million.

Speaking of dubious, I'd love to see what sort of Cost Benefit Analysis has been carried out for the hypothetical DART link to the airport and if the Minister seriously intends to consider this option if there hasn't even been a CBA carried out.

NuMarvel

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I think that's a fair point, when the Dart Underground and Metro North are out of the way it is an idea that would have merit if it could be built for the dubious figure of €300 million.

Speaking of dubious, I'd love to see what sort of Cost Benefit Analysis has been carried out for the hypothetical DART link to the airport and if the Minister seriously intends to consider this option if there hasn't even been a CBA carried out.

If Metro N and DART U were completed as currently envisaged, then I can't see much need for a DART spur in the first place. Pretty much everyone near a DART or LUAS line would be able to interchange with Metro North in or near the city centre (Stephen's Green, O'Connell Bridge or Drumcondra).

Yes, it does mean that people near the DART on the Northside have to come into town to get back out, but would there be enough people coming from that side of the city to justify building the extension to facilitate them?

What might be better is to extend the mythical Metro West at some stage in the distant future so that it interchanges or terminates at a Northern line rail station. But that's a long ways away!

superelliptic

NuMarvel wrote: »

What might be better is to extend the mythical Metro West at some stage in the distant future so that it interchanges or terminates at a Northern line rail station. But that's a long ways away!

About 100 years away - Im not even joking!


To be honest, they should just shelve the lot of it. If we cant afford it, we cant afford it. Id rather see us use the €300M for upgrading what we have around the city like more park and ride, more bus routes, bikes, integrated ticketing for everything nationwide, and on our national rail/road networks rather than spend it on this Dart->Airport red herring :eek:

Aard

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I want to add a caveat to that list: how many cities have local authority boundaries larger than Dublin's and may take in more countryside? How was Dublin's boundary defined? I would assume Dublin city council's area is a lot more dense than Co. Dublin as a whole, mountains and all.

I thought somebody might mention that. This list is not based on local authority boundaries at all. Instead, it's based on the urban area, i.e. you start counting in the city centre and keep on going until you hit fields. For Dublin, this would approximately be everything inside Howth, Ballymun, Finglas, Blanch, Lucan, Clondalkin, Tallaght, Firhouse, Sandyford, Foxrock, Shankill. So even with all of these so-called sprawling suburbs, Dublin still manages very well on the list. It has a lot to do with the tightly packed estates in the west, not to mention the many suburban apartment blocks. Of course there are areas of low-density within the whole, but that is the same for every city.

Any time the phrase "urban area" is mentioned, administrative boundaries go out the window. It's based purely on where the housing ends.

lucernarian

Aard wrote: »

I thought somebody might mention that. This list is not based on local authority boundaries at all. Instead, it's based on the urban area, i.e. you start counting in the city centre and keep on going until you hit fields. For Dublin, this would approximately be everything inside Howth, Ballymun, Finglas, Blanch, Lucan, Clondalkin, Tallaght, Firhouse, Sandyford, Foxrock, Shankill. So even with all of these so-called sprawling suburbs, Dublin still manages very well on the list. It has a lot to do with the tightly packed estates in the west, not to mention the many suburban apartment blocks. Of course there are areas of low-density within the whole, but that is the same for every city.

Any time the phrase "urban area" is mentioned, administrative boundaries go out the window. It's based purely on where the housing ends.

Thanks for answering my question. That's good to know.

geecee

Have any of the people on this thread that praise the Dublin Bus Airlink Service ever used it???

Its awful!

• The buses never depart every 15 minutes as advertised...
• They depart when ever the driver feels like it....
• They leave the passengers standing in tiny bus shelters full of smokers whilst the buses remain shut (usually as the driver is one of the smokers or is taking an extra long break)
• Eventally 2 buses depart at the same time
• They they take that meandering loop from T1 to T2 before heading towards the tunnel

On exiting the tunnel the bus pases through some of the most rundown parts of the city (i live in one of these areas before anyone pipes up!) to get to O'Connell st or Connolly

Its not an impressive wait, journey or view for any first time visitor to dublin.

I know that the rundown streets are probably the most efficient way to get to the City Centre... but it doesn't give a good impression at all.

The only praise i would give this service is that they have recenly apointed Customer service representatives that hang around the vending machines to advise passengers... and they seem to have taken some of the more nasty bus drivers off the route.

Bring on the Airport DART... And soon!

lucernarian

I think every one of those issues can be completely addressed or significantly reduced for a lot less than the hypothetical and optimistic €300 million quoted recently for the DART extension;)

How long does the bus journey take with the "meandering loops" taken into account etc? That could be one issue that would need more than a few tweaks to fix.

syklops

geecee wrote: »

Have any of the people on this thread that praise the Dublin Bus Airlink Service ever used it???

Its awful!

• The buses never depart every 15 minutes as advertised...
• They depart when ever the driver feels like it....
• They leave the passengers standing in tiny bus shelters full of smokers whilst the buses remain shut (usually as the driver is one of the smokers or is taking an extra long break)
• Eventally 2 buses depart at the same time
• They they take that meandering loop from T1 to T2 before heading towards the tunnel

On exiting the tunnel the bus pases through some of the most rundown parts of the city (i live in one of these areas before anyone pipes up!) to get to O'Connell st or Connolly

Its not an impressive wait, journey or view for any first time visitor to dublin.

I know that the rundown streets are probably the most efficient way to get to the City Centre... but it doesn't give a good impression at all.

The only praise i would give this service is that they have recenly apointed Customer service representatives that hang around the vending machines to advise passengers... and they seem to have taken some of the more nasty bus drivers off the route.

Bring on the Airport DART... And soon!

I think yo will find most people were praising the Aircoach, not the Airlink. I used to use the Aircoach a lot and it was always on time. Never used the airlink though.

LXFlyer

geecee wrote: »

Have any of the people on this thread that praise the Dublin Bus Airlink Service ever used it???

Its awful!

• The buses never depart every 15 minutes as advertised...
• They depart when ever the driver feels like it....
• They leave the passengers standing in tiny bus shelters full of smokers whilst the buses remain shut (usually as the driver is one of the smokers or is taking an extra long break)
• Eventally 2 buses depart at the same time
• They they take that meandering loop from T1 to T2 before heading towards the tunnel

On exiting the tunnel the bus pases through some of the most rundown parts of the city (i live in one of these areas before anyone pipes up!) to get to O'Connell st or Connolly

Its not an impressive wait, journey or view for any first time visitor to dublin.

I know that the rundown streets are probably the most efficient way to get to the City Centre... but it doesn't give a good impression at all.

The only praise i would give this service is that they have recenly apointed Customer service representatives that hang around the vending machines to advise passengers... and they seem to have taken some of the more nasty bus drivers off the route.

Bring on the Airport DART... And soon!

Well as a frequent flyer I use the Airlink every time I go to and from the airport and I have to say that I have never really encountered any problems with it.

With regard to two buses going together, you may be seeing both a 747 and 748 depart together - that's quite possible - they are separate routes on separate timetables. I've never noticed two 747 services departing simultaneously.

I don't think that it is unreasonable for driver to stretch his legs for a few minutes before loading up for the next departure provided he doesn't delay it.

As for your other points, how are Dublin Bus responsible for:
1) The road arrangements at Dublin Airport - Both Aircoach and DB Airlink serve T2 inbound in the same manner. Start at T1 and loop around to T2. Yes it's a minor inconvenience, but that's the road layout that the DAA provided.

2) The bus shelters at the Airport - They are provided by the DAA. Whether people are smoking is not a DB issue - it's in the open air and perfectly legal last time I checked.

3) The state of the Inner City. The route that it takes via the tunnel and Sherriff Street/Sean McDermott Street is at peak times the fastest route possible. By taking that route it also drops people on the southbound side of O'Connell Street enabling many people to make easy connections to onward bus routes. Would you prefer it get snarled up in traffic in Drumcondra or on the Quays?

One of the really positive aspects of the Airlink service is that it's free to annual pass holders, is covered by the 1 day Rambler meaning you can get from anywhere in Dublin to the Airport for EUR 6.20, or indeed if you are using a 30 day rambler ticket for EUR 3.67!

schemingbohemia

Like lxflyer as an annual ticket holder I use Airlink whenever I can, when it doesn't suit I use Aircoach.
I've found Airlink really good, the drivers are usually very helpful to the tourists. As pointed out the route it uses whilst not visually appealing is the quickest to the city centre, if you've ever taken the 16a or 40 you'll know it's a lot quicker.
Aircoach are really good too and I use them for early morning flights or when I can't be bothered changing buses in the city on the way home.
The proposed Airport DART would likely take as long as the Airlink to the city centre.