DART airport plan on track as Metro North hits the buffers

Breezer

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

IIRC correctly from the early plan the idea was to run the airport DARTs into the interconnector and terminate them in Inchicore so it was not be a shuttle to the junction (pointless) or terminating in Connolly (limited)

So essentially it was Metro North with DART branding (albeit continuing on from the Green to Inchicore, rather than necessitating a change)?

I know I'm just echoing others here, but I don't see the point of running an airport spur from what is already a congested line running through a congested station, at a frequency of 15 minutes, when buses that we already have can do a better job using a tunnel we already have. The point of Metro North was to serve areas of the city centre currently not served, and areas of North County Dublin currently not served, not to provide an airport shuttle we essentially already have.

BrianD

dynamick wrote: »

This shape of rail route doesn't make sense:


Journey times appear uncompetitive with bus particularly given the low frequency possible on this constrained route into Connolly.

Arrive at Dublin Airport.
Wait 15 mins for train.
Make 16km hairpin journey to cover 10km distance.
Arrive at Connolly.
Realistically 45 minutes which is twice the metro time and slower than the bus through the tunnel.

This is not attractive.

AerDART failed due to low passenger numbers. yet there were no traffic problems on this route.

To complete this route, the DART spur would need to pass over the Malahide Road, The M1 and the Swords Road. 3 years to plan, design and build all for 300m. I think not.

As an airport service it is more than adequate. A train every 15 min is fine for an airport the size of Dublin.

There is an option of being creative e.g. express services to from the city centre and of course in tandem with Dart Underground you'd have a potentially better service than Metro North.

Anyway, I'm not sure if this spur is needed. Buses can do the job and do it well. A plus of Metro North is that it would serve instead of terminate at Dublin North and thereby addressing a rail service to the airport.

dynamick wrote:

Maybe this is Irish Rail's attempt at a 'Metro-Killer' project. I doubt they want the RPA running any more rail in the city given that the Luas made DART look so bad.

I think that the guys at CIE had figured out that a light rail service built from scratch in the 21st century would have advantages of a rail service that has evolved over the guts of 100 years.

dowlingm

Here's the thing - Dublin Airport is an important transport node but not THAT important. Assuming this route is solely between Clongriffen and an Airport terminus, this proposal doesn't do anything for Swords or Ballymun, both underserved communities Metro North was supposed to get a lot of catchment from.

Additionally - I've just had a look at Google Maps - a Connolly-Howth Junction-Dublin Airport route is practically a boomerang.

Better would be Rail Users Ireland's submission to NTA of a tunnel under Clontarf GC and north to DUB but past the GC you're into residential neighbourhoods with the possibility of similar outcomes to the Port Tunnel in terms of cracking, noise etc. The only positive would be the proximity to Beaumont Hospital if a station could be afforded.

OurLadyofKnock

Breezer wrote: »

So essentially it was Metro North with DART branding (albeit continuing on from the Green to Inchicore, rather than necessitating a change)?

I know I'm just echoing others here, but I don't see the point of running an airport spur from what is already a congested line running through a congested station, at a frequency of 15 minutes, when buses that we already have can do a better job using a tunnel we already have. The point of Metro North was to serve areas of the city centre currently not served, and areas of North County Dublin currently not served, not to provide an airport shuttle we essentially already have.

Well the plan also stated the Howth Branch to be downgraded to just that (no running onto the Northern Line). This would free up space for the airport Darts. The DART line would be from the Airport to Inchicore with all stops in between.

With proper signalling they could have a Standsted Express thingy with a DART ever 20 mins. Not too bad really.

Matters not as it is not going to happen anways.

patrickbrophy18

If this was indeed to be the case, the DART would have to become a 24 hour service like Aircoach and some other operators at the moment. It certainly would make getting home from a night out a hell of a lot easier.

Judgement Day

Michael O'Leary says express buses to the airport are the answer so why bother with this nonsense? Anyway how would the trains get round the 90 degree bend shown on the map?

omg a kitty

It should go through fairview and santry or it wont work.
Anyway, what about metro west?

Aard

omg a kitty wrote: »

Anyway, what about metro west?

Metro West is like when you blow your nose in a tissue. You look at it for a second and think "Huh." Then glance around quickly and throw it away before any of the other capital cities start laughing at you.


Seriously, though, MW might have merit in 30 years' time. It's similar to Paris's tramways: out in the suburbs, not exactly a "mass rapid transit" get-up. But at least Paris has its dense metro and RER to feed into.

namloc1980

Does anyone think that the €300m figure seems a tad optimistic to design, plan and build this thing?

I mean look at the relay of the Midleton line in Cork. At 10km it's slightly longer than the Airport spur. It cost €80m yet in that case you had:
- an existing alignment owned by IR so no CPO to speak of.
- single tracking all the way with a passing loop.
- 2 small stations built.
- No major bridges to be built other than reinforcement of some existing ones and a couple of over passes for farmers.

Now the Govt expect us to believe that they can design, plan and build this spur line all for €300m which will need:
- a brand new alignment and as a result the engineering that that will entail.
- CPO of land.
- double tracking all the way.
- Presumably a reasonably large station at the airport and a park n ride facility with station.
- 3 major roads to cross (Malahide, M1 and Swords). Surely the M1 alone will cost a small fortune.
- Oh and electrify it as well.

n97 mini

namloc1980 wrote: »

Does anyone think that the €300m figure seems a tad optimistic to design, plan and build this thing?

I mean look at the relay of the Midleton line in Cork. At 10km it's slightly longer than the Airport spur. It cost €80m yet in that case you had:

Your post makes Midleton look very bad value!

Considering costs in the construction sector have dropped through the floor I would have thought it could be done for less than €300m.

mgmt

namloc1980 wrote: »

Does anyone think that the €300m figure seems a tad optimistic to design, plan and build this thing?

I mean look at the relay of the Midleton line in Cork. At 10km it's slightly longer than the Airport spur. It cost €80m yet in that case you had:
- an existing alignment owned by IR so no CPO to speak of.
- single tracking all the way with a passing loop.
- 2 small stations built.
- No major bridges to be built other than reinforcement of some existing ones and a couple of over passes for farmers.

Now the Govt expect us to believe that they can design, plan and build this spur line all for €300m which will need:
- a brand new alignment and as a result the engineering that that will entail.
- CPO of land.
- double tracking all the way.
- Presumably a reasonably large station at the airport and a park n ride facility with station.
- 3 major roads to cross (Malahide, M1 and Swords). Surely the M1 alone will cost a small fortune.
- Oh and electrify it as well.

300m is a lot of money. Most normal countries could do it for less.

namloc1980

n97 mini wrote: »

Your post makes Midleton look very bad value!

Considering costs in the construction sector have dropped through the floor I would have thought it could be done for less than €300m.

This is Government procurement we're talking about. Governments never do these things cheaply. Anyway the design and planning will probably cost a fortune in itself even before you CPO and engineer an alignment.

n97 mini

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

If this was indeed to be the case, the DART would have to become a 24 hour service like Aircoach and some other operators at the moment. It certainly would make getting home from a night out a hell of a lot easier.

It would only pick up at the airport and drop at the city centre, or some other such bolix.

namloc1980

mgmt wrote: »

300m is a lot of money. Most normal countries could do it for less.

Exactly but this is Ireland.

n97 mini

namloc1980 wrote: »

This is Government procurement we're talking about. Governments never do these things cheaply. Anyway the design and planning will probably cost a fortune in itself even before you CPO and engineer an alignment.

I agree, but we have a new Govt now, and more importantly a new Minister for Transport. Gone are the days when the answer to every question was more money.

namloc1980

n97 mini wrote: »

I agree, but we have a new Govt now, and more importantly a new Minister for Transport. Gone are the days when the answer to every question was more money.

They may be new but this project just smacks of a political PR stunt. "Look, at least we built something"!

Solair

It's a terrible shame that they couldn't just do something to loop the long distance intercity traffic from Belfast and Sligo lines into Heuston where there's the space, platforms and facilities to deal with it.

Connolly is really only fit to be a commuter station.

mgmt

namloc1980 wrote: »

Now the Govt expect us to believe that they can design, plan and build this spur line all for €300m which will need:
- CPO of land.

The taxpayer probably owns the land already anyway. :mad:

the groutch

do we really need this?
the only people who would use this is people who live along the coast southside, and even then they're all covered by aircoach now anyway

namloc1980

mgmt wrote: »

The taxpayer probably owns the land already anyway. :mad:

In that case the CPO will probably cost the entire €300m...........hey, NAMA has to make it's money back somehow. :P

Ghost Train

Sounds like a good idea, just 5 miles of rail over farm land... just need a flyover over the motorway and roads. Rail would be more efficient, higher volume transport to city and along coast. Would be great if there was a direct route but would rather see something integrated to dart or luas than third system

namloc1980

Ghost Train wrote: »

Sounds like a good idea, just 5 miles of rail over farm land... just need a flyover over the motorway and roads. Rail would be more efficient, higher volume transport to city and along coast. Would be great if there was a direct route but would rather see something integrated to dart or luas than third system

What use is it though? It does nothing to improve Dublin's PT issues other than giving a few travellers a rail link. This could be done cheaper, faster and better with buses through the tunnel and spending a few bob to give them priority all the way to Connolly/Bus Áras. Even if it went to Swords it "might" make a bit of sense but it doesn't even do that. It's just a political PR stunt.

OurLadyofKnock

namloc1980 wrote: »

What use is it though? It does nothing to improve Dublin's PT issues other than giving a few travellers a rail link. This could be done cheaper, faster and better with buses through the tunnel and spending a few bob to give them priority all the way to Connolly/Bus Áras. Even if it went to Swords it "might" make a bit of sense but it doesn't even do that. It's just a political PR stunt.

I agree completely - I am amazed at some of the comments on this thread about "new government" - good lord this is still Ireland and it is business as usual with this crap.

Rud

Solair wrote: »

It's a terrible shame that they couldn't just do something to loop the long distance intercity traffic from Belfast and Sligo lines into Heuston where there's the space, platforms and facilities to deal with it.

Connolly is really only fit to be a commuter station.

could they not use the phoenix park tunnel to get to heuston?

charlemont

Metro North
Rail Link:(

dowlingm

Sligo could be done with a curve from Broombridge to Park Tunnel - Heuston P10 but there's issues of cost benefit plus P10's accessibility. Midleton probably got pricey when that Lower Glanmire bridge footing fell into the Harbour!

runway16

the groutch wrote: »

do we really need this?
the only people who would use this is people who live along the coast southside, and even then they're all covered by aircoach now anyway

Untrue. All Northside commuters can use it too, as can passengers from the Sligo, Rosslare, Maynooth and Belfast lines.

Anyone who wishes to use Luas from Heuston to Connolly can also make use of it.

Given that coaches also run alongside all our Intercity rail lines, should we close all of them down as well??

lucernarian

There is an argument for removing parallel bus and rail services when one mode of transport is cheaper for consumers, cheaper to build and run and is also faster for all destinations along the proposed route.

WRC would be one such example in my eyes. But each situation is different and has to be weighed up on its own particular factors. There is a distinct market for train journeys particularly over longer distances. About 20 minutes on an airconditioned bus would rather hinder that potential market's existence however.

Solair

Surely a DART to Airport and Swords would make sense?
It's only a handful of KM of extra track to serve Swords.

markpb

Solair wrote: »

Surely a DART to Airport and Swords would make sense?
It's only a handful of KM of extra track to serve Swords.

There are several problems that need to be solved, it's not just a case of lashing some track down. How do you get the Dart through Swords (west to east) so it can serve it properly? How do you squeeze more trains onto the Northern line along with the existing Maynooth Dart, Howth Dart, Suburban and Intercity trains? Where do the trains terminate? Where do the trains come from or do we buy more? How does the track traverse the airport grounds without going underground?

And most importantly, would a Dart going south from Swords to the Airport, east to Clongriffin, south to Clontarf Road and then west to Tara St be any faster than a bus through DPT or even Drumcondra?