Web developer/coder or investor needed

EIREHotspur

YouBuyLocal wrote: »

This is excellent for you, but it is a load of nonsense to say that "there is one route to success for all and I walked it!" [not a quote, a synopsis]

The OP will go a different route. You are assuming sooo much about how he is going to build the team and how he will construct the agreement. Its ridiculous.

I myself am a little ahead of the OP but was in the same position. I am going a different route to yourselves and you can be damned if you think I won't be successful for it! I have absolute confidence in my understanding of the industry, my team-building & management skills, my off-line route to market, my vision, my shrewdness in developing a viable & sustainable business model and growth strategy and my clear visual image of the flow of the site and the necessary features. I also have the absolute confidence of one of Ireland's top young tech-entrepreneurs, who is trialing and selling his smart-phone infrastructure to multi-nationals and all of the top telcoms companies in Europe and the US.

So I absolutely know 100% that you are totally wrong in saying that he has to do what you say and that he is somehow marching into calamity or failure because he is 'too lazy', or whatever you think, to learn to code himself.

For some people a simple cost benefit analysis will show that learning a new skill is not necessary if you can delegate and inspire a team with those requisite skillsets.

Where did any of say he was "lazy"?
It's you who is talking nonsense - " have absolute confidence in my understanding of the industry, my team-building & management skills, my off-line route to market, my vision, my shrewdness in developing a viable & sustainable business model and growth strategy and my clear visual image of the flow of the site and the necessary features."
This is yuppie speak.
We want to cut out that kind of gibberish and get back to plain speaking English

He wants a Database Driven Website.

It's very simple.

DrivingTestTips: Brian

OP...
I have been thinking about your situation and think you have got very good advice.
This is what happened me.
I got a web developer to do a job for me years ago, and he started.
He built a great site until I started asking for new stuff, like a business directory, new section, integration of Realex (CC payment system) and so on.
HE was very good at what he knows BUT it was a long time before any extra work was done. Because he would ether outsource the work for stuff he did not know how to do or he would learn how to do it.

It was costing me €85 an hour for him to ether pay someone or learn how to do it himself.

After spending €9000 + all the other business related stuff total cost about €50,000. I got rid of him and ran into a world of trouble.
He used his own CMS to build the site; I could get the files but NO CMS. He had me by the B***s.. So I tuck the site down and decided to do what i should have done first. "LEARN about how it is done".

I now build my own sites plus all the databases, files, hosting accounts, design work, SEO... bla bla bla I'm a great lad.
I think you should do something like I did and learn as much as you can.

This is a site I built just to learn how to build shops online... (Ladies Top Drawer . co . uk)
The site is done with "CRE Loaded".
I got the flash files done because I wanted to know how to get someone to do work and what it would cost.

The sites at the bottom are my core business and I built all the site myself plus the CMS and databases.

If you want to learn how to do this stuff send me a message and ill help..
I cant do the work for you, I won't do the work for you but you will be so happy when you know what your web team are doing, if you decide not to do it yourself.

Here is a taste - OOP (Object Oriented Programming)

Best regards Brian.

EIREHotspur

Good for you Brian.

That was your first mistake though and is a point I get into on a few different forums when I discuss with fellow designers/developers.

Never deal with someone who wants to be paid per hour....ever!

If I had done your website it would be flat fee for website plus a flat fee quote for extras depending on complexity.

Nipaco

With all due respect eirehotspur, I don't see a need to speak in that manner. Ybl was polite in his response to posts made by you and hellfire. And his response was correct and justified.
I need much more than a database driven site.
As suggested earlier, and addresses by ybl, I recognize my own limitations and field of expertise. It would be idiotic to attempt this myself in any way shape or form.
Ybl simply said that he was in the same situation as myself 6 months ago, and put a team of appropriate professionals in place to get a job done. It's not rocket science.
Please be a little more respectful to other posters on this thread whom I appreciate their time and effort in advising me, as I do yours.

Kinetic^

DrivingTestTips: Brian wrote: »

It was costing me €85 an hour for him to ether pay someone or learn how to do it himself.

That's a bit mad that he expected you to pay for his education. :mad:

EIREHotspur

Nipaco wrote: »

With all due respect eirehotspur, I don't see a need to speak in that manner. Ybl was polite in his response to posts made by you and hellfire. And his response was correct and justified.
I need much more than a database driven site.
As suggested earlier, and addresses by ybl, I recognize my own limitations and field of expertise. It would be idiotic to attempt this myself in any way shape or form.
Ybl simply said that he was in the same situation as myself 6 months ago, and put a team of appropriate professionals in place to get a job done. It's not rocket science.
Please be a little more respectful to other posters on this thread whom I appreciate their time and effort in advising me, as I do yours.

lol....yes sir

good luck with that.

DrivingTestTips: Brian

Kinetic^ wrote: »

That's a bit mad that he expected you to pay for his education. :mad:

Ye!!!! I know..... the cheek of him.

EIREHotspur wrote:

If I had done your website it would be flat fee for website plus a flat fee quote for extras depending on complexity.

Ahhhh ye.... But if I don't know how complex the job is you can tell me what ever you want. And that was the issue..
But now I can't be filled with bull.

Don't get me wrong, you don't have an easy job and I do understand trying to embrace another persons idea is very hard.
But still all online business people should know as much as they can.

Nipaco

Thanks Brian, all great advice there. I'm hoping and expecting that if someone comes on board they'll have some personal vested interest in it for it to do well.
I will try to learn as much as I can as I go, and I have some generous offers of mentoring/advising by posters on here, so hopefully if needed I can clarify issues with them.
I will definitely not go down the route of doing it myself though. It's just far too risky. I'd be a complete novice looking after possibly 50,000 to 500,000 clients personal information.

EIREHotspur

DrivingTestTips: Brian wrote: »

Ahhhh ye.... But if I don't know how complex the job is you can tell me what ever you want. And that was the issue..
But now I can't be filled with bull.

Don't get me wrong, you don't have an easy job and I do understand trying to embrace another persons idea is very hard.
But still all online business people should know as much as they can.

Yeah I know what you mean about geing filled with bull....unless you know what your talking about...it can happen.

Heres a website I get great stuff to adapt for my websites....maybe you can use it Brian - activeden.net

I own a great top level irish domain and am developing 4 ideas to be promoted on it. Someone in Germany offered me 2k for that domain name it a few years ago but I declined because I wanted to use it myself.

I now have all the skills to bring it to reality.

PCPhoto

its a strange thread this.... it sounds like web designers/programmers are suggesting basically if you don't have the money to pay or don't understand what you need ....then go and learn it and do it yourself.

the OP obviously does not have the time or want or may not be capable of understanding what languages programmers use - some people are not technically minded.

my suggestion to the OP would be to ask potential web designers/programmers to work against a payment structure, create the site over 12-18months (at the pace the designer/programmer wants...ie their spare time), create a payment plan for maybe 2years of X amount per week/month (failure to make a payment results in breach of contract) and if project is created on time X amount in bonus.

essentially incentivise the project, talk with programmer create a realistic deadline and fair payment scheme, if the programmer needs to take on extra work they can extend the deadline but that means they miss the bonus as they have breached the contract.

its possible to find decent web programmers out there - there are lots of chancers out there - it is almost impossible to tell them apart.... some people who have created fantastic websites simply outsource various parts and gather it all together... they have no actual knowledge in webdesign/programming - but they know what is required and where to get it.

YouBuyLocal

EIREHotspur wrote: »

Where did any of say he was "lazy"?
It's you who is talking nonsense - " have absolute confidence in my understanding of the industry, my team-building & management skills, my off-line route to market, my vision, my shrewdness in developing a viable & sustainable business model and growth strategy and my clear visual image of the flow of the site and the necessary features."
This is yuppie speak.
We want to cut out that kind of gibberish and get back to plain speaking English

He wants a Database Driven Website.

It's very simple.

Right, "yuppie speak", I'll try to learn English so. Yuppie speak is what you call "not-jargon". Sorry, I don't speak jargon.

EIREHotspur

YouBuyLocal wrote: »

Right, "yuppie speak", I'll try to learn English so. Yuppie speak is what you call "not-jargon". Sorry, I don't speak jargon.

oh dear
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuppie

I fear moderators will now close this thread but finally for my part...he will do what he wants to do at the end of the day.

About 10 years ago I broke down on the side of the road a hundred miles from home (car was stuck in third gear) and some local guy told me he would fix it for me.
He charged me 250euro to replace ____ _____ and I paid him and went about the rest of my holiday.
When I got it home and my brother in law had it over the pit he told me the guy had put a bit of spot weld on a shaft beneath the car and hadn't replaced it like he said.
He fooled me because I knew nothing about cars.

Moral of the story is that if he isn't worried about what he pays out then fire ahead....but if he doesn't want to be taken then he needs to educate himself in the basics at least. Thats up to him.

YouBuyLocal

EIREHotspur wrote: »

oh dear
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuppie

I fear moderators will now close this thread but finally for my part...he will do what he wants to do at the end of the day.

About 10 years ago I broke down on the side of the road a hundred miles from home (car was stuck in third gear) and some local guy told me he would fix it for me.
He charged me 250euro to replace ____ _____ and I paid him and went about the rest of my holiday.
When I got it home and my brother in law had it over the pit he told me the guy had put a bit of spot weld on a shaft beneath the car and hadn't replaced it like he said.
He fooled me because I knew nothing about cars.

Moral of the story is that if he isn't worried about what he pays out then fire ahead....but if he doesn't want to be taken then he needs to educate himself in the basics at least. Thats up to him.

Absolutely, but that is a far cry from coding it himself.

PCPhoto

EIREHotspur wrote: »

oh dear
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuppie

I fear moderators will now close this thread but finally for my part...he will do what he wants to do at the end of the day.

About 10 years ago I broke down on the side of the road a hundred miles from home (car was stuck in third gear) and some local guy told me he would fix it for me.
He charged me 250euro to replace ____ _____ and I paid him and went about the rest of my holiday.
When I got it home and my brother in law had it over the pit he told me the guy had put a bit of spot weld on a shaft beneath the car and hadn't replaced it like he said.
He fooled me because I knew nothing about cars.

Moral of the story is that if he isn't worried about what he pays out then fire ahead....but if he doesn't want to be taken then he needs to educate himself in the basics at least. Thats up to him.

so your saying instead of paying a professional ....learn the stuff yourself ??

Funk that I will continue to pay those who are recommended or those who I need and those that can do the job....if I get taken advantage of thats life - you learn not to deal with that person again.

The world is full of conmen claiming they can do the job ....have a look at those web designers/programmers who outsource the projects they take on because they don't know how to do it.... are they conning people into believing they are professionals or are they only professional at some aspects of the job.

I work as a photographer but wont take on jobs because I don't have the expertise .... similarly some web designers should pass on jobs because the project is too big for them alone - but they need to tell the client.

Kinetic^

PCPhoto wrote: »

so your saying instead of paying a professional ....learn the stuff yourself ??

Learn the basics so you're not taken for a ride.

BostonB

The basic point is a developer is not going to do something for free, when they have no problem getting paid somewhere else.

If you get no bites, you then have to up your offer, or wait as long as it takes.

Nipaco

There is no offer to up.
Everything is on the table here from doing the initial pages for a fixed percentage of revenue, up to partner/co founder.

BostonB

actually its unpaid, the developer can't eat. Theres no food on the table. untill the site starts paying. If the site starts paying.

Why would you choose that over a paid job. Many of which might also give you equity.

Nipaco

BostonB, if that's your situation then this is not for you.

BostonB

I'm making a general comment about why its not attractive to a developer.

Its a bit like asking a plumber you'll pay him when you sell the house.

HellFireClub

Nipaco wrote: »

With all due respect eirehotspur, I don't see a need to speak in that manner. Ybl was polite in his response to posts made by you and hellfire. And his response was correct and justified.
I need much more than a database driven site.
As suggested earlier, and addresses by ybl, I recognize my own limitations and field of expertise. It would be idiotic to attempt this myself in any way shape or form.
Ybl simply said that he was in the same situation as myself 6 months ago, and put a team of appropriate professionals in place to get a job done. It's not rocket science.
Please be a little more respectful to other posters on this thread whom I appreciate their time and effort in advising me, as I do yours.

In fairness OP the only limitations here are the limitations that you have placed in your head and I mean that respectfully. It isn't easy sitting down and trying something completely new, but several people here have strongly advised you to revisit this decision that you have made to not approach this project from a technical aspect yourself. If you put a month into studying the software you need, download some software and try to knock some kind of a website out of it, at the end the month, you'd be no worse off if you achieved nothing. The chances are that you would start seeing some kind of a result or something that was moving towards a result.

If you run into roadblocks, there are loads of fora on the internet where you can ask questions and get excellent help and the best help I've found anywhere on the net is on the Development forum on this site, you wouldn't believe how informed and decent the folks on that forum actually are, whether you are writing in C# or PHP or whatever.

This obstruction you have in your head with having a go at the development end of the project yourself, while fully understandable as we are all human and humans often find new stuff scary, I think you need to try to confront it because it is clearly obstructing your project...

Even if you set your PC on fire after a month out of frustration, you'll be a bit better informed and one thing you should be hearing from other comments on here is that if you find yourself in a situation where you are IT illiterate, you will end up with a nightmare on your hands, I've told you of where I've seen it happen and the poster above has told you of his situation where he pumped in 50K upwards into a project and ended up with a gun to his head and had to go at it himself in the end...

EDIT: Also, If someone comes on board with you here, it will be a rocky and difficult business relationship when you appear to be not making much of an effort to learn as much as you can about this technical aspct of this project from the perspective of IT. It will become very frustrating for someone working with you when you might want X, Y or Z done to the site and the person making the changes gets frustrated because they can't explain to you why possibly X, Y or Z cannot be done, or why there may be a more efficient way of deploying a better solution, let's just call it method M, N or O...

Nipaco

I appreciate that and understand totally what you are saying. What I find hard to believe is that I can develop such a website with a month or even a years work. That would seem to undermine the specialty of it, no?
I'm aware there are ways for me to get a website up, ie out if box etc. This just isn't good enough and not for me.
I need assurance of top quality and function.
The advice I've taken from others is to try to familiarize myself with it, not to try to do it myself.
I'm amazed at the suggestion actually. Put it this way, you couldn't do what I do in 5 yrs let alone 5 months. This is the mentality I have, be that good or bad.

EIREHotspur

Kinetic^ wrote: »

Learn the basics so you're not taken for a ride.

Thats exactly what I am saying....thanks Kinitic...obviously some people are not reading all of what is in my posts.

I agree with BostonB and HellFireClub on this.
The Edit part of Hellfires last post sums everything up perfectly.

Your business is going to depend on the website.
I have to admit I was tempted at having a pitch at this around page 1 of this thread....but it has got more ludicrous the more it went on.

I'm Out Too.

Nipaco

Could you explain the ludicrous part ?
Nothing has changed since page 1, and if you suggest I do the work myself or part of, then what were you interested in pitching ?

BostonB

Nipaco wrote: »

...
The advice I've taken from others is to try to familiarize myself with it, not to try to do it myself....

Isn't that the same thing as learn the basics?

I don't think theres anything wrong with your approach. If you are prepared to find a person willing to do it. But (in my opinion) your approach is going to attract more of the people least suitable to do, it, and few of the people who can do it. But you will find someone eventually. I don't think its the most efficient way to get this done though.

I get the impression you don't really understand why people aren't leaping at the opportunity. I was really only trying to explain why. I don't think you are convinced though.

HellFireClub

Can you give us some information OP about the kind of website this will be, as in is it something that is based on a shopping cart solution, (if you are selling online), or is it a discussion forum you are trying to set up, or an advertising site along the lines of donedeal.ie, without giving away the concept itself, like what specific TYPE of a web development solution are you trying to get built here??? I don't need to know the industry or the concept, but the type of solution you are looking to get built would be helpful because I'd be very surprised if there isn't one available out there that can be downloaded from some site or another for free...

There are several folks running discussion forums in this country and I doubt they are qualified software folks who can code at all...

Nipaco

I'm delighted with the response, as I knew before I placed this post that it probably wouldn't generate much as I'm sure there are lots and lots of people out there that think their idea is great. I really only hoped for 1 lead or some positive advice. I've had amount of both.
You may not have read earlier posts but people are registering their interest by pm only.
I do agree with you though that this is not an efficient way of going about it.
Before now I have been investigating the Irish investment network and rentacoder. I'm not comfortable with these as it means putting the clear idea out there and I then have no control over it. I also can't tell which sites are genuine and secure or cowboys.
If needs be, and nothing comes from the interest expressed in pm, I would rather hold on til I find that one person.

Is there a better way you know of that I can go about this that hasn't already be suggested ?

Nipaco

It's a little bit of each, hellfire, or as much as is possible in actually doing.
At the start I can go with a pm/email notification and online shopping (in any form feasible.

HellFireClub

Nipaco wrote: »

It's a little bit of each, hellfire, or as much as is possible in actually doing.
At the start I can go with a pm/email notification and online shopping (in any form feasible.

You can download free Shopping Cart software from the web and I think I'm being fairly reasonable when I say that it is very very achievable to be able to learn in a month, (assuming you have registered your domain name and have the appropriate hosting package, DB's, etc), that you would be able to learn how to deploy this kind of software. I know you'd have to do nothing else for a month but eat breathe and sleep this stuff, and you'd surely be asking loads of questions on line and overcoming one obstacle after the other. If you couldn't get to this (very basic) level of proficiency, I think it's very difficult to see how any person wouldn't have rings ran around them in relation to a wider development project...

Just try to envisage this situation: You want to have some kind of functionality added to your site by your developer. You're developer tries to explain to you that it isn't the right way of doing it or that the approach is wrong. You are determined (as anyone would be), to get this idea in your head, integrated into your website...

This goes on for a week and the debate continues, next thing it occurs to you to get a second opinion, and you get an opinion that says that the person you have is not using the most suitable framework for your particular set of needs or that there is no reason why you're concept cannot be implemented as you have asked or instructed.

If such a situation were to arise, although you are not yet in serious conflict with your developer partner, you are not very far short of it... If you had a firmer grasp though on how your software sat on your server, how data is stored, presented and updated, etc, you would be able to work better with your developer I think...

BostonB

In my limited experience any projects I've seen developed like this are often done wrong, and everyone learns from it, (I see that as positive and part of the process) then if it succeeds, its often redone properly eventually.