Was the GPO in 1916 Looted?

Corsendonk

I always heard a story in my family that a prominated business family in the area established its fortune by funding gained from the looting of gold in the GPO in 1916. 3 brothers took part. Is this Hogwash or was gold stored in the GPO? And did much looting occur in the Uprising?

LordSutch

I am not sure if the GPO was or wasn't looted, but I recently heard that much of the damage done to O'Connell street opposite the GPO & further down towards Parnell St was as a direct result of looting & burning, and not the gunboat Helga, as myth once said . . . .

The looters robbed & burned their way down O'Connell St in the aftermath of the Rising, some say that many of the looters were actually rebels, some say it was not the rebels, but just some less well off folk taking advanyage of the mayhem & destruction, I am not sure who did the looting.

PS My Grandad was a postman in Dublin at the time.

Morlar

LordSutch wrote: »

I am not sure if the GPO was or wasn't looted, but I recently heard that much of the damage done to O'Connell street opposite the GPO & further down towards Parnell St was as a direct result of looting & burning, and not the gunboat Helga, as myth once said . . . .

The looters robbed & burned their way down O'Connell St in the aftermath of the Rising, some say that many of the looters were actually rebels, some say it was not the rebels, but just some less well off folk taking advanyage of the mayhem & destruction, I am not sure who did the looting.

PS My Grandad was a postman in Dublin at the time.

Would you have an online link to this information (in bold) ? Is it contained in books (if so which ones) or is it anecdotal ?

Yes fires spread and destroyed buildings but I am not sure that it was the looters who were setting the fires, I would have thought it was a result of the bombardment & the rebels were not bombarding.

I have never heard of Rebels looting. I have heard of them confiscating materials for the effort, such as food at Jacobs etc. In my view that is undeniably a completely seperate category to the criminal looting of jewellery shops etc. The 'stolen gold bars at the gpo' is a new one on me and sounds prettyfar fetched.

MarchDub

Looters tearing down whole buildings? Leaving streets in piles of rubble? That really is a new myth - they must have been the size of King Kong!

mikemac

http://www.amazon.com/Dublin-Tenement-Life-Oral-History/dp/0140296255

Superb book, lots of libraries in Dublin have it.
The Rebels were laughed at and told the Tommies would be along soon to box the heads off them. You can just imagine that sentence in a Moore St accent
And gives stories of what was stolen and how it was hidden among houses and the police raids the weeks afterwards trying to recover property

There was huge looting going on in Dublin, a lot along Talbot St area.

Some good reading here
http://books.google.com/books?id=d5DYJEavqNAC&pg=PA260&lpg=PA260&dq=1916+looting&source=bl&ots=7pio6awhHG&sig=YRXCL-8LE3oD7Hb12G2HRdoHvGs&hl=en&ei=L5y5TYHWC9SYhQf0-PGODw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDYQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=1916%20looting&f=false

And you know the same would happen today with the Love Ulster. When the police withdraw, the inner city low lifes and scum emerge.

As I understand a Rebel commander initially had an order that looters would be shot but never followed through and didn't give the order.

Corsendonk

MarchDub wrote: »

Looters tearing down whole buildings? Leaving streets in piles of rubble? That really is a new myth - they must have been the size of King Kong!

Usually fire follows looting hence buildings falling down so you don't need KingKong. Some accounts of general looting in dublin

http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/easterrising/monday/

Helena Molony was sent from the City Hall to the GPO to ask for reinforcements. As she was leaving, one of the rebels approached her "nearly in tears: 'Miss Molony, give that note - it is a note for the ould mott' - his wife". Walking down Dame Street, she met the left-wing journalist Francis Sheehy Skeffington "looking very white and dispirited", distressed by the looting. She carried on to the GPO, delivered her message and walked back to City Hall.

Dear, dirty Dublin: a city in distress, 1899-1916 By Joseph V. O'Brien

The daylight hours were passed by some in a frenzy of looting. With the Withdrawel of the police on Monday, the poor descended on O'Connell Street, Camden Street, and other shopping centres and at great risks to their lives (for they were fired on both by the rebels inthe G.P.O and the O.T.C detachment defending Trinity College) reaped the windfall of material comforts in undefended clothing and footwear establishments. All contemporary accounts testify to this emanation of Dublin "underworld" each relating a particular example of serious or amusing character. Sean MacDiarmada leaving his post at the G.P.O to remonstrate with looters for disgracing the fight for Ireland's freedom , an army of children laying siege to Lawrence's toy bazaar, Noblett's candy store pillaged of its contents, drunken citizens fighting each other for the bottles of stout and whiskey lifted from a public house, the Lord Mayor and civilians keeping a mob at bay in fashionable Grafton Street until the arrival of a military guard. Further lurid details were provided by the police courts, where over 130 persons were charged with looting during May, the police having entered homes in search of the culprits. Those arrested included ten-year-old boys who stole footballs and running shoes from Elvery's sports shop and scores of adults in possession of equally selective plunder-- boots and shoes, topcoats and jackets, teapots and delph, toilet soap and cocoa. The grand looting prize must go to Winnie O'Byrne and her daughter Agnes, who were caught with two hair mattresses, one pillow, eight window curtains, one pair of corsets, one piece of flannelette, one quilt, one topcoat, two ladies' coats, a half dozen ladies hats, and four chairs! The greatest loss was suffered by the B and I Steam Packet Company, whose warehouse was stripped of goods to the value of £5,000. Thoses convicted received sentences of one or two months' imprisonment , and cases did not cease to be heard until mid-July. According to police statistics for 1916, 425 persons were proceeded against for looting during the Rebellion and 398 of these were either fined or imprisoned.

Mary Louisa Hamilton Norway The Sinn Fein Rebellion as I saw it

Yesterday afternoon [Thursday], when the firing in Grafton Street was over, the mob appeared and looted the shops, clearing the great provision shops and others. From the back of this hotel you look down on an alley that connects with Grafton Street, - and at the corner, the shop front in Grafton Street, but with a side entrance into this lane, is a very large and high-class fruiterer. From the windows we watched the proceedings, and I never saw anything so brazen! The mob were chiefly women and children with a sprinkling of men.They swarmed in and out of the side door bearing huge consignments of bananas, the great bunches on the stalk, to which the children attached a cord and ran away dragging it along. Other boys had big orange boxes which they filled with tinned and bottled fruits. Women with their skirts held up received showers of apples and oranges and all kind of fruit which were thrown from the upper windows by their pals; and ankle-deep on the ground lay all the pink and white and silver paper shavings used for packing choice fruits. It was an amazing sight, and nothing daunted these people. Higher up at another shop we were told a woman was hanging out of a window dropping down loot to a friend, when she was shot through the head by a sniper, probably our man; the body dropped into the street and the mob cleared.

MarchDub

Corsendonk wrote: »

Usually fire follows looting hence buildings falling down so you don't need KingKong. Some accounts of general looting in dublin

Spontaneous combustion does not occur so easily - and looting does not automatically spawn fire. Also back then the non combustible nature of so much building materials - as opposed to our more plastic age - would have made setting fire a much more deliberate enterprise. The looters are described mostly as women and children. I would need much more evidence that they had deliberately set fire to buildings.

In the "Burn baby burn" of the civil rights movement in the US setting fire was a careful and purposely laid plan.

CDfm

Were looters shot ???

Here is an interesting link

http://www.irishroots.org/aoh/easter.htm

I have always wondered about the numbers of civilian casualties and the circumstances of their deaths.

Elsewhere the Volunteers had occupied places of work and welfare (such as there were) of poor working class people.In several cases the rebels had to use force against the locals to occupy their positions. At Jacob’s factory, a Volunteer named Sean Murphy recalled, “some civilians had … attacked one of the Volunteers and in order to save his life they had to shoot one of the civilians”.[6]



At South Dublin Union, the Volunteers found themselves involved in a riot with locals and had to “lay out” two with rifle butts before they got into the complex.[7] At Stephen’s Green, the Citizen Army had seized passing cars and carts at gunpoint to serve as barricades, James Stephens saw a carter try to remove his livelihood from the barricades, only to be shot dead by the insurgents. “At that moment the Volunteers were hated.”[8]

http://www.theirishstory.com/2011/04/24/today-in-irish-history-april-24-1916-the-first-day-of-the-easter-rising/

R.Dub.Fusilier

i have to say i never read anything about gold bars in the GPO or looters setting fires in shops or indeed the rebels looting. many myths stories and hearsay did the rounds after the Rising in many famlies in Dublin , some true and others not .

PatsytheNazi

Corsendonk wrote: »

Usually fire follows looting hence buildings falling down so you don't need KingKong. Some accounts of general looting in dublin

The looters took goods away only, the fires were mainly started by the British artillery etc hitting the buildings and igniting fires as one of the effects of an explosion is to cause intense heat.

Simples.

CDfm

James Stephens the writer wrote that "small boys were killed"

In the morning, James Stephens took a walk to St Stephen's Green, where rebels sniped from the roof of the College of Surgeons. However, government troops now had machine guns on the roofs of three buildings on the Green - the Shelbourne Hotel, the United Service Club, and the Alexandra Club - and a duel had opened up across the trees.
"Through the railings of the Green some rifles and bandoliers could be seen lying on the ground, as also the deserted trenches and snipers' holes," Stephens recalled. "Small boys bolted in to see these sights and bolted out again with bullets quickening their feet. Small boys do not believe that people will really kill them, but small boys were killed."

http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/easterrising/wednesday/

PatsytheNazi

CDfm wrote: »

Were looters shot ???

Here is an interesting link

http://www.irishroots.org/aoh/easter.htm

I have always wondered about the numbers of civilian casualties and the circumstances of their deaths.

http://www.theirishstory.com/2011/04/24/today-in-irish-history-april-24-1916-the-first-day-of-the-easter-rising/

I believe their were some shots fired over the looters by the Rebels as they became apprehensive that the whole Rising might look like an organised looting spree instead of a proper Rebellion.

Username is valid and not in use

There's the basis of a great dynasty type TV drama in that rumour.

Morlar

Um, right. Speaking of TV . . . does anyone know of any plans to release TG4's 'Seachtain na cásca' on dvd boxset ?

It does say :

http://www.tg4.ie/corp/nl/nl1.asp?NID=12

Another opportunity to see the award winning series, which examines the lives of the 7 signatories of the 1916 Easter Proclamation. The full series will be screened over Easter. DVD box set also availavle on www.tg4.ie/siopa

however only the book is on the sales site.

mikemac

The producers were on boards last Novemeber when it was being screened

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=69090567

Hi There,

Thanks to all for watching the show. The series will be released on DVD but not in time for Christmas. If you would like to pre-order a copy of the set you can send an email with your name, address and phone to 1916@abumedia.com, and we will contact you with details of the DVD release! Thanks for the support,

Abú Media

Just sent them a quick email, will report back if I get a reply
It's a boxset that would sell well, makes sense to release it

CDfm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

I believe their were some shots fired over the looters by the Rebels as they became apprehensive that the whole Rising might look like an organised looting spree instead of a proper Rebellion.

Civilian casualties is something that is never adequetly explained and Francis Sheehy-Skeffingtons death seems to have been the only one prosecuted.

Is it fair to say it was a whitewash by both sides.

The British Army reported casualties of 116 dead, 368 wounded and 9 missing. Sixteen policemen died, and 29 were wounded. Rebel and civilian casualties were 318 dead and 2,217 wounded. The Volunteers and ICA recorded 64 killed in action, but otherwise Irish casualties were not divided into rebels and civilians.[76] All 16 police fatalities and 22 of the British soldiers killed were Irishmen [77]
The majority of the casualties, both killed and wounded, were civilians. Both sides, British and rebel, shot civilians deliberately on occasion when they refused to obey orders such as to stop at checkpoints.[78] On top of that, there were two instances of British troops killing civilians out of revenge or frustration, at Portobello Barracks, where six were shot and North King Street, where 15 were killed.[79]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Rising#Casualties

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

Civilian casualties is something that is never adequetly explained and Francis Sheehy-Skeffingtons death seems to have been the only one prosecuted.

The British Army reported casualties of 116 dead, 368 wounded and 9 missing. Sixteen policemen died, and 29 were wounded. Rebel and civilian casualties were 318 dead and 2,217 wounded. The Volunteers and ICA recorded 64 killed in action, but otherwise Irish casualties were not divided into rebels and civilians.[76] All 16 police fatalities and 22 of the British soldiers killed were Irishmen [77]
The majority of the casualties, both killed and wounded, were civilians. Both sides, British and rebel, shot civilians deliberately on occasion when they refused to obey orders such as to stop at checkpoints.[78][79] On top of that, there were two instances of British troops killing civilians out of revenge or frustration, at Portobello Barracks, where six were shot and North King Street, where 15 were killed.

CDfm wrote: »

Is it fair to say it was a whitewash by both sides.

This is what I absolutely hate about Wikipedia - the quote in wiki is WRONG and very misleading. McGarry does not say - as stated in the quote with a ref to McGarry - that both sides shot civilians. I have McGarry open in front of me and he states:

Quote: Both sides shot people who did not obey their orders, especially drivers who failed to halt at barricades.

A hell of a lot different from implying that the rebels were willy nilly shooting randomly at civilians or were equally responsible for civilian deaths.

Edit: Worse, McGarry does not even give a reference or source for this statement anyway.

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

This is what I absolutely hate about Wikipedia - the quote in wiki is WRONG and very misleading. McGarry does not say - as stated in the quote with a ref to McGarry - that both sides shot civilians. I have McGarry open in front of me and he states:

A hell of a lot different from implying that the rebels were willy nilly shooting randomly at civilians or were equally responsible for civilian deaths.

Edit: Worse, McGarry does not even give a reference or source for this statement anyway.

It didn't get past you MD.

Someone shot the civilians and it is very unclear who shot who & why.

Corsendonk

Well I believe buildings were just as flamable then and you had gas, wood, oil stores, bakeries, warehouses, printing press, cinema with highly flammable film in the area. At time it was next to impossible for the Dublin Fire Service to stop fires spreading from building to building because fighting was so intense that they had to withdraw. Of course looters didn't start all the fires as certain posters seem to think I am saying but fire does help conceal the evidence of looting and this is Dublin were they still steal anything not nailed down today.

The Dublin Fire Brigade: a history of the brigade, the fires and the emergenciesBy Tom Geraghty, Trevor Whitehead

The chief officer's report for 1916 showed that the brigade received 145 calls to normal fires, a reduction of 75 on the previous year. This figure, however did not include the calls to 93 fires, 41 in day time and 51 at night, attended during the week of the Easter Rising. Of the ordinary fires tackled that year, loss was estimated at £41,200 whereas the 196 establishments destroyed during the Rising had a direct loss estimate of £2,500,000. This figure is exclusive of the direct business loss during the last eight days of April. The locations destroyed by fires, looters or bombardment by the military were given as: 68,900 square yards in O'Connell Street area; 29,140 in Linenhall;1,020 in Lower Bridge Street; 225 in Mount Street; 135 in St Stephens Green - a total of 99,420 square yards of the most prosperous areas of the city destroyed.

The first fire calls were from the North Ear Street area where a fire was started by looters. By Tuesday morning looting of shops had spread and further fires were started. Commandant Brennan Whitmore of the Volunteers relates in his memoirs being sent by James Connolly to try to stop the looting in Talbot and North Earl streets areas. He maintained that he called thefire brigade who responded immediately on the first two days but were prevented from turning out by the military from then on.

When shelling began, houses and business premises were set alight by the bombardment, making fire fighting an altogether impossible task. However during lulls, the fire engines responded and attacked the fires that were then occurring on an ever more widespread basis. When shelling recommenced the firemen withdrew to adjacent streeta awaiting the next lull so they could get to work again. As the week went on so the fighting, shooting and shelling increased. Fires caused by the incendiary shells were relatively small but, if they were not tackled quickly, they spread until they merged with other fires, finally becoming a conflagration which would radiate to any inflammables in the vicinity and eventually shower burning debris over a wide area. On occasions when the military informed the brigade that they had ceased to bombard an area the fire engines were able to get in and try to extinguish the fire.

Next morning a fire at 32 Sackville Street was fought , to be followed in the evening by three fires in the same street. As already indicated, these early fires were caused by looters who had ransacked the premises. By Wednesday the looting and the firing had extended to more of Sackville Street and into Henry Street where firemen were actually accosted by the looters as they tried to tackle the growing flames. Mores fires occurred asthe intensity of the fighting grew worse and because all of Sackville Street was now under gunfire, the brigade ceased to attend fires within that street. Similarly, the brigade was prevented from attacking a large blaze in Clanwilliam Place owing to the fact that the military were shelling houses in the immediate vicinity.

jonniebgood1

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

The looters took goods away only, the fires were mainly started by the British artillery etc hitting the buildings and igniting fires as one of the effects of an explosion is to cause intense heat.

Simples.

Your right Simples- Those darn nasty brits strike again.

..........

Although there are some interesting sources in this thread?

Morlar

The looters took goods away only, the fires were mainly started by the British artillery etc hitting the buildings and igniting fires as one of the effects of an explosion is to cause intense heat.

Simples.

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Your right Simples- Those darn nasty brits strike again.

..........

Although there are some interesting sources in this thread?

Can you clarify this response as it is not entirely clear what you are saying here.

Are you saying that there are sources on the thread which contradict the post you quoted ?

Credible sources which support this new theory that the rebels caused the fires which raged across parts of Dublin ?
Or
Credible sources that illustrate the rebels were involved in widescale shooting of looters/civilians ? (Aside from the less than handful of very well known examples) ?

Or just other information in general which you found interesting ?

CDfm

It seems to be the case that there are no credible sources at all and for the number of civilian deaths and casualties and the circumstances of their deaths.

It is just odd and there was a precedence on 26 July 1914 -the Bachelors Walk Massacre

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thFOFQ_92AY

Can anyone even say with certainty if the British Casualties given are correct ?

The first stone struck Major Alfred Haig on the bridge of his nose. The officer stood his ground and considered the large, seething crowd that had been hurling stones and rotten fruit at his men for the past three hours. It was 6:30pm on a hot Sunday evening, 26 July 1914. The Major was rapidly losing his cool. He had been enjoying a day off when a messenger had urged him to come quickly to Sackville (now O’Connell) Street. Upon arrival, the Major found his 180-strong battalion – the King’s Own Scottish Borderers – in a state of considerable disarray. Many, officers included, had serious wounds, with blood dripping from gashes on their heads. Major Haig had seen mobs before but, as he later told the inquest, this crowd seemed to be particularly ugly. He estimated their number to be at least a thousand strong and that it mostly comprised of men in their 20s and 30s. There were, he conceded, a number of women and children amongst them.

Major Haig marched his men south towards the River Liffey, wheeling right by the Daniel O’Connell Monument down Bachelor’s Walk in the direction of the Royal Barracks (now Collins Barracks) where they were garrisoned.

The crowd followed close to heel, throwing stones with increasing ferocity and frequency, often at short range. As they approached Liffey Street, another crowd appeared from the shadows, armed with more rocks. Up towards the Ha’penny Bridge, three men flung themselves at one of the soldiers and began to drag him kicking and screaming onto the sidewalk. Several soldiers, bayonets fixed, charged to his rescue. It was at this moment that Major Haig about turned, summoned up the full velocity of his vocals and ordered the crowd to disperse. The second stone hit him square on the chin. The third slammed into his right ear. The crowd hissed. The stones and fruit continued to rain down. A soldier standing nearby buckled as a glass bottle exploded in his face. Major Haig ordered twenty men at the back of the column to form into a double line. The front rank knelt and the rear rank closed up.
Suddenly a shot rang out, to be followed by a withering volley discharged directly into the crowd.

Major Haig always denied that he gave the order to fire. His men are believed to have assumed he gave the order when he raised his hand to silence the crowd. The official verdict was simply that ‘promiscuous firing by 21 soldiers took place without orders’. It did not matter that no soldier fired more than two rounds. When the shooting stopped, three civilians lay dead and thirty-two were wounded. One witness recalled how the victims ‘fell like partridges’. The three dead were 50-year-old Mary Duffy, 50-year-old Patrick Quinn and 18-year-old James Brennan. Several witnesses came forward to say they had seen Major Haig’s deputy, Captain Cobden, deliberately shoot Mrs Duffy down. Another man, bayoneted during the conflict, died some days later. Amongst those wounded were a cyclist crossing O’Connell Bridge and a young boy called Luke Kelly whose son, also Luke, was one of the founding members of The Dubliners.

http://www.turtlebunbury.com/history/history_irish/history_irish_bachelors_walk.htm

Morlar

As an aside . .. .Might have mentioned it before but there is currently a Jack B.Yeats painting (on short term loan) at the National Gallery of Ireland about this event :

"A Bachelor's Walk in Memory"


Apparently the artist turned up at the scene of the shootings the next day. He saw and painted this newspaper seller /street trader girl laying a flower where one of the victims had fallen.

Corsendonk

Morlar wrote: »

Can you clarify this response as it is not entirely clear what you are saying here.

Are you saying that there are sources on the thread which contradict the post you quoted ?

Credible sources which support this new theory that the rebels caused the fires which raged across parts of Dublin ?
Or
Credible sources that illustrate the rebels were involved in widescale shooting of looters/civilians ? (Aside from the less than handful of very well known examples) ?

Or just other information in general which you found interesting ?

Just reading over the thread here and no one is claiming that the rebels started fires intentional or where involved in the general looting of central Dublin. The Looters seem to be comprised of an opportunist bunch from Dublin criminal element and kids. Both the rebels and the British tried to stop them while fighting each other.

Would the GPO have contained much money or coinage?

MarchDub

Morlar wrote: »

Can you clarify this response as it is not entirely clear what you are saying here.

Are you saying that there are sources on the thread which contradict the post you quoted ?

Credible sources which support this new theory that the rebels caused the fires which raged across parts of Dublin ?
Or
Credible sources that illustrate the rebels were involved in widescale shooting of looters/civilians ? (Aside from the less than handful of very well known examples) ?

Or just other information in general which you found interesting ?

You beat me to it - I have the same questions.

I might also add to Jonniebgood that sarcasm like "Those darn nasty brits strike again" - does not add anything to a discussion.

MarchDub

Morlar wrote: »

As an aside . .. .Might have mentioned it before but there is currently a Jack B.Yeats painting (on short term loan) at the National Gallery of Ireland about this event :

"A Bachelor's Walk in Memory"


Apparently the artist turned up at the scene of the shootings the next day. He saw and painted this newspaper seller /street trader girl laying a flower where one of the victims had fallen.

Thanks. The painting is by Jack B Yeats - brother of the poet. Great, isn't it?

PatsytheNazi

CDfm wrote: »

Civilian casualties is something that is never adequetly explained and Francis Sheehy-Skeffingtons death seems to have been the only one prosecuted.

Is it fair to say it was a whitewash by both sides.

Well since one side was on it's way onto Kilmainham, Frongoch etc prisons etc it would have been a bit hard for them to hold their own public inquiry. As for the British, well it's standard for them to whitewash the killing by them of the natives.

PatsytheNazi

MarchDub wrote: »

I might also add to Jonniebgood that sarcasm like "Those darn nasty brits strike again" - does not add anything to a discussion.

He's just trying to be a wannabe funny guy as usual :rolleyes:

Morlar

MarchDub wrote: »

Thanks. The painting is by Jack B Yeats - brother of the poet. Great, isn't it?

Absolutely. I regularly drop into the Jack B. Yeats room at the NGI either going to or from the dart, it's online too for anyone who can't make it;

http://onlinecollection.nationalgallery.ie/

> 'Yeats Collection'

with supplementary information on some paintings.

jonniebgood1

Morlar wrote: »

Can you clarify this response as it is not entirely clear what you are saying here.

Are you saying that there are sources on the thread which contradict the post you quoted ?

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

He's just trying to be a wannabe funny guy as usual :rolleyes:

Certainly not trying to be funny- apologies if my sentiment was unclear:
My response was basically saying that this is not a clear black and white situation. i.e. to say that looters during easter 1916 would only nick stuff but not criminally damage the property they were looting is not factually proven. Its entirely possible that people damaging/ looting property could cause fires, etc. My reference to 'interesting sources' is the book links about the looting. I had no idea of the extent of this looting and the ? was asking if these links were also doubted (in same way as fire damage by looters). Its not a straightforward bad brits story which was what Patsys post implied to me.

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

The looters took goods away only, the fires were mainly started by the British artillery etc hitting the buildings and igniting fires as one of the effects of an explosion is to cause intense heat.

Simples.

Morlar

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

.....this is not a clear black and white situation. i.e. to say that looters during easter 1916 would only nick stuff but not criminally damage the property they were looting is not factually proven. Its entirely possible that people damaging/ looting property could cause fires,

I think you have placed the 'factual burden of proof' the wrong way around there. Also - when you say 'criminally damage' you are referring to looters starting fires right ?

My take on this is that you have a situation where the British forces are actively shelling Dublin city centre & fires break out. Due to the ongoing conflict the fire service do not attend to them and the fires spread.

Then along comes this new theory is that the fires were caused by looters for an unknown reason. Despite the fact that this would prevent future looting and seem to not be in the interests of the looters. Also the suggestion has been made that the rebels had an involvement in looting - which is groundless and seems to be dropped for now.

As I see it it would be up to the people putting forward this new theory (that looters caused fires) to provide some supportive evidence.

It is not up to the people who are sceptical about this new theory to disprove it. It would be something which goes against logic and is unsupported by anything presented so far other than vague accusation.

jonniebgood1

MarchDub wrote: »

You beat me to it - I have the same questions.

I might also add to Jonniebgood that sarcasm like "Those darn nasty brits strike again" - does not add anything to a discussion.

I think you missed the point I was making, as explained in my last post.

jonniebgood1

Morlar wrote: »

I think you have placed the 'factual burden of proof' the wrong way around there.

My take on this is that you have a situation where the British forces are actively shelling Dublin city centre & fires break out. Due to the ongoing conflict the fire service do not attend to them and the fires spread.

Then along comes this new theory is that the fires were caused by looters for an unknown reason. Despite the fact that this would prevent future looting and seem to not be in the interests of the looters. Also the suggestion has been made that the rebels had an involvement in looting - which is groundless and seems to be dropped for now.

As I see it it would be up to the people putting forward this new theory (that looters caused fires) to provide some supportive evidence.

It is not up to the people who are sceptical about this new theory to disprove it. It would be something which goes against logic and is unsupported by anything presented so far other than vague accusation.

I have no interest in another pedantic argument with you as we have ruined many threads doing this.

jonniebgood1

Morlar wrote: »

Apparently the artist turned up at the scene of the shootings the next day. He saw and painted this newspaper seller /street trader girl laying a flower where one of the victims had fallen.

Was she linked to a victim or any other background info on the picture?

MarchDub

One of the reasons why the British army shot at civilians is that the soldiers were told that most of the rebels were not in uniform and that their number was possibly tens of thousands - and so innocent civilian men were often the targets. This, coupled with the fact that the troops were hurried into Dublin and were in a state of confusion - many Dubliners would later say that some of the soldiers actually thought that they were in France or Belgium on a WWI mission. But think of it, by mid week of Easter week there were 25,000 troops on the Dublin streets.

In 2001 PM Blair released secretly held documents that revealed almost 400 deaths of innocent civilians shot by the army during the Rising and the days following had been hidden and covered up with no investigation.

MarchDub

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

I think you missed the point I was making, as explained in my last post.

I disagree - I don't think I missed a thing.

mattjack

Corsendonk wrote: »

I always heard a story in my family that a prominated business family in the area established its fortune by funding gained from the looting of gold in the GPO in 1916. 3 brothers took part. Is this Hogwash or was gold stored in the GPO? And did much looting occur in the Uprising?

heard that myself....family of buthchers

Morlar

Originally Posted by Morlar View Post
I think you have placed the 'factual burden of proof' the wrong way around there.

My take on this is that you have a situation where the British forces are actively shelling Dublin city centre & fires break out. Due to the ongoing conflict the fire service do not attend to them and the fires spread.

Then along comes this new theory is that the fires were caused by looters for an unknown reason. Despite the fact that this would prevent future looting and seem to not be in the interests of the looters. Also the suggestion has been made that the rebels had an involvement in looting - which is groundless and seems to be dropped for now.

As I see it it would be up to the people putting forward this new theory (that looters caused fires) to provide some supportive evidence.

It is not up to the people who are sceptical about this new theory to disprove it. It would be something which goes against logic and is unsupported by anything presented so far other than vague accusation.

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

I have no interest in another pedantic argument with you as we have ruined many threads doing this.

I have not seen a shred of evidence to the theory you seem to support that the looters caused a single fire in Dublin in 1916.

Perhaps if you were less ambigous in your posts, speak clearly and stand over what you say then such 'pedantic arguments' would not arise in the first place.

mattjack

mattjack wrote: »

heard that myself....family of buthchers

butchers ..even

Corsendonk

Morlar wrote: »

I have not seen a shred of evidence to the theory you seem to support that the looters caused a single fire in Dublin in 1916.

.

Pardon to butt into the hand bags swinging contest but the quotes I posted from the History of the Dublin Fire Brigade obviously are not evidence in your opinion seening thatthey mention looters starting fires?

Morlar

Corsendonk wrote: »

the quotes I posted from the History of the Dublin Fire Brigade obviously are not evidence in your opinion seening thatthey mention looters starting fires?

To be honest with you I had misread that. Apologies. I read down to :

The locations destroyed by fires, looters or bombardment by the military were given as: 68,900 square yards in O'Connell Street area; 29,140 in Linenhall;1,020 in Lower Bridge Street; 225 in Mount Street; 135 in St Stephens Green - a total of 99,420 square yards of the most prosperous areas of the city destroyed.

Then:

Commandant Brennan Whitmore of the Volunteers relates in his memoirs being sent by James Connolly to try to stop the looting in Talbot and North Earl streets areas. He maintained that he called thefire brigade who responded immediately on the first two days but were prevented from turning out by the military from then on.

:

When shelling began, houses and business premises were set alight by the bombardment, making fire fighting an altogether impossible task.

Then speedread the rest. On re-reading it now I would take that as evidence that some fires were indeed started by looters. I would stress the point that this appears isolated given the scale of the damage, specially regarding Sackville st. Also that the British army preventing access to the fire brigades probably increased the scale of the damage and it is unclear if they would actually have come under rebel fire so the motivation for the b.a. preventing the fire service attending is suspect in my view. However I accept there is evidence there that some looters did start some fires.

MarchDub

mattjack wrote: »

butchers ..even

That's very interesting - in Dublin there were a number of German butchers who came as refugees during WWI and opened up shops. There were two on Moore St near enough to the Post Office. I wonder was this a fabrication spread about because of possible local prejudice against the 'foreigners'?

Corsendonk

MarchDub wrote: »

That's very interesting - in Dublin there were a number of German butchers who came as refugees during WWI and opened up shops. There were two on Moore St near enough to the Post Office. I wonder was this a fabrication spread about because of possible local prejudice against the 'foreigners'?

Well the family in my story originally came from Rush(not german that i know) but moved to another North Co. Dublin town. Interesting to know were MattJack butchers were based do.

Was one of the German butchers Olhausen?

MarchDub

Corsendonk wrote: »

Well the family in my story originally came from Rush(not german that i know) but moved to another North Co. Dublin town. Interesting to know were ... butchers were based do.

Was one of the German butchers ...?

Given the context I don't think we ought to be mentioning actual names - just saying.

CDfm

There were some valuables in the GPO but I find it impossible to think that bars of gold were kept their unless there was a vault and anyway that seems to be a bank thing.

On the Saturday morning, the sun shone once again. At 10am, Mary Louisa Hamilton Norway wrote a letter. "If the main walls of the GPO remain standing it may be we shall find the safe in H's (her husband's) room still intact. It was built into the wall, and my jewel-case was in it, but all our silver, old engravings, and other valuables were stored in the great mahogany cupboards when we gave up our house in the autumn, as being the safest place in Dublin."

Could rebels or occupants of the surrounding area take valuables and recover them later.


Its possible.

The GPO was burnt out and empty, with its former occupiers continuing to burrow their way up the street. Among them was Joseph Sweeney, who was involved in a terrible incident on Moore Street. "The door of the house we were trying to get into was locked and we could hear people moving about inside. We asked them to open the door and they wouldn't. Then somebody shouted in to get out of the room and he put a gun up to the door and blew open the lock. When we got in we found it had killed an old boy inside."

http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/easterrising/saturday/


Really , its the surrounding areas - bombed out banks or hotels or shops would have the real pickings.



So the insurance and other compensation scheme payouts might give an idea.

Judgement Day

I think it's harsh/judgemental to refer to looters as criminals - there was, and still is, serious poverty in the inner city and it was only human nature to take advantage of their good luck.

mattjack

Corsendonk wrote: »

Well the family in my story originally came from Rush(not german that i know) but moved to another North Co. Dublin town. Interesting to know were MattJack butchers were based do.

Was one of the German butchers Olhausen?

My mothers family knows the family...and as a far as I know they are still in existence as butchers..well known butchers in Dublin..but you,ve got to wait till tomorrow and I ll ask my mother..my Mother is from the city centre and her story was that the brothers fought in the rising..and then took money from the GPO as the fighting was ending and escaped capture , but take grains of salt folks..Ill ask her over the weekend..

MarchDub

Judgement Day wrote: »

I think it's harsh/judgemental to refer to looters as criminals - there was, and still is, serious poverty in the inner city and it was only human nature to take advantage of their good luck.

Thank you! I was thinking the same all day. I can remember when I was a child in the 1950s/early 60s there was still a lot of poverty in the city - it was not unusual to see children with shoes tied on with rags to keep them on. Kids frequently wore coats crudely cut down from adult size. Women wore dresses for years without getting anything new. City children had no toys - none at all. They played with ropes tied around lamp posts and old tyres that they raced up and down the roads pushing them with sticks. My grandfather worked in a Catholic charity and I used to go around with him as he delivered help in small monies and I witnessed poverty on a level not known nowadays. Whole families living in one room.

When I read of the looting I only thought - who can blame them, many of the looters were kids taking toys and women taking clothes that they hadn't got a snowball's chance in hell of ever owning.

CDfm

Judgement Day wrote: »

I think it's harsh/judgemental to refer to looters as criminals - there was, and still is, serious poverty in the inner city and it was only human nature to take advantage of their good luck.

JD the land of saints and scholars and all that. Looters , criminals -its all semantics.

& MD -everybody was poor -its relative and the area my Dad grew up in was poor & decimated by TB - we should not let excuses get in the way of the facts.

How did so many civilians get killed and injured & how come no explanations have ever been forthcoming.

How bout this -people saw & took the opportunity -the rebels saw them got mad and shot em - even the soldiers could have taken loot as victors spoils and everybody kept schtum.

Or false insurance claims by owners, managers and claimants.

Isn't Hill 16 built with the rubble of 1916.

Lock & load gentlemen. :pac:

MarchDub

Not offering excuses - just relaying how people lived. I never point fingers at those who have to scrounge around to live, or even survive. Saw New Orleans a few years go - no blame there either. People reduced to nothing have my sympathy. And not everyone in Dublin was at the level of poverty that I described.

It's pointless to speculate on the shootings that are not documented - without evidence we can even surmise that martians came down and shot at looters or civilians. Without evidence we can invent our own bogeymen to blame - but it still remains invention.

Corsendonk

MarchDub wrote: »

Given the context I don't think we ought to be mentioning actual names - just saying.

As explained if I can use the pun I think your german immigrants theory is "tripe":D but I just wished to know if they were one of the butchers in the area you mentioned. Considering the GPO was occupied by the rebels it would have to be the rebels who "took" anything unless workers who cleared debris found something in the ruins. Is there a list of who fought in the GPO? Or a partial list?