Dublin Marathon 2011 Novices Mentored Thread

chinguetti

To all the new folks, welcome.

One question you need to ask yourself - Do you want to enjoy your first marathon or do you want to run your fastest?

If you answered that you want to enjoy it, i think you're right. You will learn more in the training and running a marathon which you can use for a proper attempt at a good time the next time if you want.

LaHaine

Can anyone recommend some good books about marathon running? Is there any in relation to the psychology behind running long distance?

Even now, sometimes i feel that my tiredness on long runs is mental rather than physical at times. Is this somethin that improves with experience?

Mr Slow

LaHaine wrote: »

Can anyone recommend some good books about marathon running? Is there any in relation to the psychology behind running long distance?

Even now, sometimes i feel that my tiredness on long runs is mental rather than physical at times. Is this somethin that improves with experience?

Advanced Marathoning by Pfitzinger and Douglas.

If you're running alone it's much harder, there's group runs in the Phoenix Park most weekends, (thread here) running with a group makes it far easier!

RayCun

LaHaine wrote: »

Can anyone recommend some good books about marathon running? Is there any in relation to the psychology behind running long distance?

The only marathon-specific book I've read is Advanced Marathoning by Pfitziger and Douglas. I've found it very useful for explaining different sessions, but I don't remember it having much on the psychology of long distance runs.
It is definitely something you get better at with experience. Running with other people can also make the miles go by faster.

Mr Slow

RayCun wrote: »

The only marathon-specific book I've read is Advanced Marathoning by Pfitziger and Douglas. I've found it very useful for explaining different sessions, but I don't remember it having much on the psychology of long distance runs.
It is definitely something you get better at with experience. Running with other people can also make the miles go by faster.

Seriously Ray, stop copying me :P

Fazz

I'm in a similar position as betterthanhoyte, training for triathlons, recently did lsr's at half mara distance around the 1:40-1:48 pace depending on how slow I took them.

Only thing is I have a sub 3 firmly in my head, I know it's gonna be damn hard but I'm gonna go for it.

Will try to creep lsr distance up despite Tri season here.
Running 3 times a week at mo, will increase that in a few months before up to 6 days in August in advance of Dublin half in sept, leading to full in oct.
Both my first half and full marathons.
I'll know where I'm at from the half and if sub 3 is realistic then, but it is my goal despite the fact it's my first marathon.

My main training barrier as I see it is I'll be running circa 35-40km per week until July and only really get a chance to increase this after that, around 4-5 weeks before the half, and again another 5-6 weeks then till full.
Will this be enough?
The positive is the swimming and biking will see me have good fitness in prep just not enough miles ran per week until Aug.
I know I've to run 2 x 20 milers at least before marathon, are these at lsr pace?

I welcome any advise/tips regarding miles per week etc that may be recommended. I haven't looked at any marathon training plans as my calendar is full with triathlon training. But I will have around 8-10
Weeks from end of Tri season to marathon.

RayCun

The most important workout in your marathon training programme is the long run. This is the run you can't skimp on, the one you really can't do without. When things start getting tough on race day - and they will get tough - the long runs are the training sessions you'll draw strength from. The memory of those miles, in your head and in your legs, could be the thing that pulls you through.

In the first week of the training plan, the 'long' run is 6 miles. 6 miles is not long at all - most of you will have raced that distance already, let alone run it in training. But that distance will build up over the weeks, to 10, 14, 18, 20 miles, distances that are probably worrying you even now . It is important to approach these long runs correctly, right from the beginning, so that as the distances increase you can still handle them.

That means running them slowly.

Your Long Slow Run pace should be 30-90 seconds slower* than your planned marathon pace (PMP). If you don't know what your PMP is, that's okay - run at a pace that you can hold a comfortable conversation at. You're still not sure? Slow down some more. In the early weeks of the programme, and early in your runs, you are going to feel like you're barely crawling along. That's just right.

Lot's of people have trouble understanding this, and it's one of the most common marathon questions people have - "If I plan to run the marathon at 9 minute miles, and I feel I can go out and do my long run at 9 minute miles, why do you want me to slow down?"

The problem is, you might be able to run your long run at PMP, but it will exhaust you. Improving your running fitness is an incremental process. It's not about doing one great training session, it's about getting out for your 4/5 runs this week and doing them all well, and doing the same next week, and the week after. Consistency of training is the key to improvement, so you need to be recovered from your long runs in a couple of days - and you won't be if you've run at PMP.

Running faster, and spending less time on your runs, would compromise some of the benefits of your long runs. The longer runs are training your body for endurance running. Your body needs to get better at burning fat, as well as carbohydrates for energy (because you can't store enough carbs for a marathon and when they run out, you hit the wall). Your legs need to get better at using different muscle groups in running. Your feet need to get used to the pounding. You need practice at maintaining good running form when tired. All of these things are easier when you are running slowly.

There is also a mental benefit to the long runs. The marathon is going to take you 4 to 5 hours to run. That can be emotionally exhausting. But the experience of spending hours on your LSRs will make you better prepared for marathon day.

So, three things to remember about your LSRs

• They are the most important sessions every week
• Make sure you get your longest LSRs in (18/20 miles)
• Run them slowly

* there's some variation from plan to plan. Some say a minute slower, others say 10%, others says 30-90 seconds. Some say start slowly and get faster towards the end. Some plans will include faster miles in the LSR. But, as far as I can see, they all agree that most of your long miles should be done at a slow pace.

rainbow kirby

LaHaine wrote: »

Can anyone recommend some good books about marathon running? Is there any in relation to the psychology behind running long distance?

Even now, sometimes i feel that my tiredness on long runs is mental rather than physical at times. Is this somethin that improves with experience?

Lore of Running by Tim Noakes would be worth a read. There's a lot of the science behind running performance in it, and a bit about the psychology of it too.

RayCun

Fazz wrote: »

My main training barrier as I see it is I'll be running circa 35-40km per week until July and only really get a chance to increase this after that, around 4-5 weeks before the half, and again another 5-6 weeks then till full.
Will this be enough?

You only really have two weeks training after the half, because then you're tapering down to race day.
Do you have any recent times from running-only races? Are you running 35-40km a week now? To be honest, it's hard for me to judge where you're at right now, because I have no tri experience.

(There are a few people in the same situation - triathletes aiming for their first marathon - aren't there? It might be worth setting up a new thread, so some of the experienced triathletes will see it and chime in?)

Fazz

Hi RayCun thanks for reply.

I'm running 35-40km per week the last few weeks.
No times running races afraid, in fact haven't done a timed fast 5k or 10k even lately but I'd be in the sub 19/20 and around the 40-42 mark at a guess at present, maybe less.

I did a duathlon in March which had over a 4km first leg and I was 15:30 so 19/19:30 back then, and hopefully less now.

chinguetti

RK is spot on. Lore of Running is a great book and covers all angles.

I found the section on past marathon greats really useful as you find out that the world's best and us normal folk go through the same highs and lows.

ecoli

Agree that Lore of Running is a great book in terms of running. May be a little heavy going if you are new to the sport.

In terms of psychology of endurance running i feel that this is something which you attain through a training plan. You train your mind as well as your body as you get stronger your mind will realise this and adapt

Training with partners is great as you are motivated by the people around you. It also gives your mind a bit of a gauge of where you are and where you should be. If you are keeping up with a 3.30 runner without to much difficulty in the sessions and LSRs you start to think "if they are able to hit that time no reason i cant"

Likewise training on your own you have to push yourself harder mentally so that come race day with people around you it feels easier

The key to training is variety.Work to your strengths just as much as your weaknesses. Running all your miles at MP your body will get better at running at that pace. This may sound good but if you hit a hill in the race and small bit extra effort and your body is not used to it and panics. This is why it is important to vary your training, easy running, intervals,tempos, progressions, LSR, PMP runs, basically what ever mixture of these the main thing is to conitinually push your body out of its comfort zone. By doing this you are teaching your mind as well as your body to push further.

If you want to go further into psychology i would suggest googling The Central Governor Model but to be honest i think most people work better developing mentally through the course of a training plan.

Best of luck Remember this is a hobby it should be (somewhat) enjoyable dont over analyze and keep it simple (in terms of not over thinking it)

tHE vAGGABOND

Maybe Im missing something, but why would you buy a training plan from HH [or Running World or where ever]. They have the plans there, for you to copy and follow as you see fit?

Are the extra services offered by these folks "selling" you the plan for $20 [or whatever] worth it?

RayCun

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

Maybe Im missing something, but why would you buy a training plan from HH [or Running World or where ever] when you can just follow the excellent advice given in this mentored thread?

fyp

RayCun

Also, send me a tenner.

ger664

I would just like to echo others regarding target times for your first marathon.

You will only ever run your First Marathon once there after you will have plenty of marathons to run your fastest.

tHE vAGGABOND

this is a very "newbie" question, but then again this is the novice thread so here it is

Im doing 30-35 miles a week atm. The training plan Im going to follow does not hit that level until week 6 or so. [eg: I did 7 last night, plan never hits that level on a Thursday, and only hits that on week 8 for a Wednesday]

So I totally know the training plans are just rough guides and not gospel, but do I "ignore" training plan for the first few weeks, or should I scale back on miles and stick closer to it?

Mr Slow

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

this is a very "newbie" question, but then again this is the novice thread so here it is

Im doing 30-35 miles a week atm. The training plan Im going to follow does not hit that level until week 6 or so. [eg: I did 7 last night, plan never hits that level on a Thursday, and only hits that on week 8 for a Wednesday]

So I totally know the training plans are just rough guides and not gospel, but do I "ignore" training plan for the first few weeks, or should I scale back on miles and stick closer to it?

I'd look at something with more mileage that you can adapt to suit you, the Higdon plans are great if you haven't got a great base but you do.

RayCun

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

Im doing 30-35 miles a week atm. The training plan Im going to follow does not hit that level until week 6 or so. [eg: I did 7 last night, plan never hits that level on a Thursday, and only hits that on week 8 for a Wednesday]

Two things -

Don't worry if the first month of the marathon training plan is easier than the month before you started the plan. It's okay to step back a little at the beginning, to take it easy before the miles start building up. You have to look at the middle and late stages of the plan before deciding that it's too easy for you. And remember to include things like the pace of the runs and the number of consecutive days running in this assessment.

If Novice1 really is too easy for you, you can follow a more challenging plan while still following this thread. (Or tinker with the plan - I followed Novice2 last year, but I increased the distance of all the LSRs by one or two miles, up to a maximum of 20)

Mr Slow

mrslow wrote: »

I'd look at something with more mileage that you can adapt to suit you

RayCun wrote: »

(Or tinker with the plan - I followed Novice2 last year, but I increased the distance of all the LSRs by one or two miles, up to a maximum of 20)

:rolleyes:

tHE vAGGABOND

If Novice1 really is too easy for you, you can follow a more challenging plan while still following this thread. (Or tinker with the plan - I followed Novice2 last year, but I increased the distance of all the LSRs by one or two miles, up to a maximum of 20)

I'd look at something with more mileage that you can adapt to suit you, the Higdon plans are great if you haven't got a great base but you do.

Thanks, oh wise ones...

I was looking at HH Intermediate 1 actually - but what you say makes sense, I will have a look around this evening.

I was taking Runners Worlds definition of intermediate

Intermediate You regularly run 20 to 30 miles a week, and have done so for a year or more. You do a weekly long run of eight to 10 miles and have some experience with tempo runs or intervals....

But as you say, it may just be a case of slightly adapting one of them. More research needed, something to do in work to pass time, happy days

Mr Slow

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

Thanks, oh wise ones...

I was looking at HH Intermediate 1 actually - but what you say makes sense, I will have a look around this evening.

I was taking Runners Worlds definition of intermediate

But as you say, it may just be a case of slightly adapting one of them. More research needed, something to do in work to pass time, happy days

I'm following P&D, might be worth a look. As said before you don't have to run every mile in the plan but take what you need from it.

chinguetti

Vagga - Run Republic was the website i mentioned to you last week.

Adapt as you see fit to include races and whatever time you are aiming for.

PDCAT

Hi

Just thought i'd join this thread as i'm thinking of running Dublin this year.

I say thinking, i'd love to run it, just have had couple of re occuring injuries with left shin this year. Not sure if i will be able for the mileage but will find out as i go.

Backround

I started running about 16/17 months ago after inactivity for about 18 years. i'm 38 year old male.

PB's

5k = 21.25 - Portlaoise (March 2011)
10k = 47.58 - Danesfort (July 2010)
4m - 29.59 - Tinryland (August 2010).

Currently i run approx three times a week.
Tuesday 5 mile Tempo (Threadmill)
Thursday 5 mile (Threadmill)
Saturday 10 - 12 mile (LSR) (Road).

Plan was to run the Wexford Half in two weeks time. Currently have injury so have not ran in last 9 days. Need to see physio and am holding off on running for the next couple of days. May try and run next week on grass/threadmill to test it out) Looks like same Left leg injury that i had in January. Hurt it jumping up and down on dancefloor at my brother's wedding.:mad::mad::mad:

Anyway - My goal for Half was 1.45 - 1.50
Goal for Dublin would be 4.00

Am able to run four days a week. Was going to follow Hal hidgeon plan with some alterations. Use one of the weekdays run a tempo on treadmill.
Ensure that i get at least 2 x 20 mile runs before marathon.
Also not sure i would be able to run on Wednesday's so plan would be to run Monday, Tuesday, Thursday & Saturday.

Anyway that's the backround, really all revolves around if i can stay injury free, especially with the increase in mileage that's needed.

ecoli

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

this is a very "newbie" question, but then again this is the novice thread so here it is

Im doing 30-35 miles a week atm. The training plan Im going to follow does not hit that level until week 6 or so. [eg: I did 7 last night, plan never hits that level on a Thursday, and only hits that on week 8 for a Wednesday]

So I totally know the training plans are just rough guides and not gospel, but do I "ignore" training plan for the first few weeks, or should I scale back on miles and stick closer to it?

How long have you been hitting the 30-35? If it is not that long what you can do is remain at this mileage for a bit allowing your time to get used to it before building again. This can be a safe way off allowing your body to assimilate to the extra mileage

The other option would ben if you have been doing this mileage for some time and you start a training plan increase your mileage proportionally to the increases in a plan. If the plan starts at 15 miles and builds by 2-3 miles in one week perhaps you can build by same % just make sure not to ramp it up too much.

I would say no point in taking a step back on the mileage as the extra mileage will stand to you come race day

RayCun

welcome to the thread PDCAT

Mr Slow

PDCAT, your target time for the half is soft, you're faster than 1:50

PDCAT

Thanks Raycun -

Hi Mr Slow

Yeah - after the portlaoise 5k - mcmillan calculator said my half was 1.38.
Few weeks later ran a 10k in Cahir - tougher route. Based on this time mcmillian says 1.47.

To be honest with you - i gave myself a few time targets in january.
The shorter distances are tougher to hit.

The 10 mile/ half marathon targets were a bit softer as i haven't raced over 10k before. i was being easy on myself. Was hoping to be able to easily hit these, due to injuries i think i'd stick to these targets.

Having said that, i would probably be aiming for low/mid 1.40's myself.

ecoli

PDCAT wrote: »

Hi

Just thought i'd join this thread as i'm thinking of running Dublin this year.

I say thinking, i'd love to run it, just have had couple of re occuring injuries with left shin this year. Not sure if i will be able for the mileage but will find out as i go.

Backround

I started running about 16/17 months ago after inactivity for about 18 years. i'm 38 year old male.

PB's

5k = 21.25 - Portlaoise (March 2011)
10k = 47.58 - Danesfort (July 2010)
4m - 29.59 - Tinryland (August 2010).

Currently i run approx three times a week.
Tuesday 5 mile Tempo (Threadmill)
Thursday 5 mile (Threadmill)
Saturday 10 - 12 mile (LSR) (Road).
Plan was to run the Wexford Half in two weeks time. Currently have injury so have not ran in last 9 days. Need to see physio and am holding off on running for the next couple of days. May try and run next week on grass/threadmill to test it out) Looks like same Left leg injury that i had in January. Hurt it jumping up and down on dancefloor at my brother's wedding.:mad::mad::mad:

Anyway that's the backround, really all revolves around if i can stay injury free, especially with the increase in mileage that's needed.

Couldnt help but notice a few things about the training that i think could be contributing to injury. Looking at your typical week you are doing 50% of your weekly mileage in one run couple this with the fact that this is your only run on the roads. You are putting your body under alot of unnecessary strain. Try cutting your long run back to 8 miles for a while max and try add another run to make up the mileage. Once you have done this for a few weeks you can then proceed in building your mileage once again.

Think of mileage like holding up a roof. Each day is like a beam. The more beams there are the better your body is able to deal with the higher workload.

PDCAT

ecoli wrote: »

Couldnt help but notice a few things about the training that i think could be contributing to injury. Looking at your typical week you are doing 50% of your weekly mileage in one run couple this with the fact that this is your only run on the roads. You are putting your body under alot of unnecessary strain. Try cutting your long run back to 8 miles for a while max and try add another run to make up the mileage. Once you have done this for a few weeks you can then proceed in building your mileage once again.

Think of mileage like holding up a roof. Each day is like a beam. The more beams there are the better your body is able to deal with the higher workload.

Thanks Ecoli - may look into changing around my schedule.

Basically so far i have been slightly restricted in running more than 3 days a week.
Having said that i am into hillwalking and 1 day a week will walk about 8 - 10 miles as well as three days running. Didn't really want to drop the hillwalking for another day of running.

Reason i was staying on the treadmill was because last summer and also early this year, i tried running three days a week on the road.
However for some reason, both my lower legs (shin area) seem to be very weak, no strength in them after a few weeks of this. Don't know why this is. Took the joy out of the running a little bit.
I found as soon as i switched couple of my runs back to the treadmill my legs were fine again.

If i'm serious about getting to complete Dublin Marathon - i'll need to run four days a week and maybe lower the long run as you said.

Another problem is think i'm running my LSR way too fast. Last couple of LSR's 11+ miles are between 9.00 - 9.10 pace. Way too fast for what i should be running.