Dublin Marathon 2011 Novices Mentored Thread

Mr Slow

rainbow kirby wrote: »

I'm trying to lose some weight, not put it on! :pac:

Redistribute then :P

Perkina3

Yeah I must have a look into that bottle belt. I did have another belt but bloody hate it!!!

Yeah and I am the same.... hate carrying bottles!!!

So is ppls training coming along??? obv. base training

neilc

RayCun wrote: »

Some options for taking water on your runs

• carry water in bottles or a camelback (don't like this myself, find it uncomfortable)
• run in loops passing your house/parked car (the downside is you might find yourself tempted to stop each time)
• go out ahead of time and stash bottles on your route (but these may go missing)
• bring some money with you and stop off in a shop for water (my preference, but not always possible)

I would tend to agree that you don't need water if you're running under 90 minutes and are well-hydrated in advance.... but that's only a rule of thumb, some people will want water earlier. And on a hot day you'll get thirsty faster.

Bottom line -even if you're usually okay without water for 90 minutes, once you start getting up to about 80 minute runs you should have a fallback plan for water. Maybe you'll take a wrong turn, or it'll be a hot day, or you were drinking a couple of days ago and you'll find yourself feeling parched faster than normal... whatever the reason, you're much better off having water available that you don't use in the end, than to be gasping for water with another 30 minutes left to run.

Hi Ray, I know you're not gone on them but I invested in one of these camelbak's a few weeks ago. Capacity is 1.5 litres so not to bulky and light enough. Used it on a 10 miler on Saturday, filled with water and ice, what water was left was still very cool at the end of the run. BTW 10 miles and above is when I start carrying water, don't bother for less than that.
Neil

Mr Slow

neilc wrote: »

10 miles and above is when I start carrying water, don't bother for less than that.
Neil

Horses for courses, I'll take a few sips in the first mile and again before 5. It's a comfort thing for me but I've never been without on a run.

Concerned2

neilc wrote: »

Hi Ray, I know you're not gone on them but I invested in one of these camelbak's a few weeks ago. Capacity is 1.5 litres so not to bulky and light enough. Used it on a 10 miler on Saturday, filled with water and ice, what water was left was still very cool at the end of the run. BTW 10 miles and above is when I start carrying water, don't bother for less than that.
Neil

Hi Neil, I'm curious as to how comfortable that camelbak is on the run. I've got a hydration belt which is very uncomfortable so I was thinking of buying 1 of the camelbak's. I would have though the camelbak's without a strap around the waste would bounce around as you are running , how do you find the 1 you've linked above ?

neilc

Concerned2 wrote: »

Hi Neil, I'm curious as to how comfortable that camelbak is on the run. I've got a hydration belt which is very uncomfortable so I was thinking of buying 1 of the camelbak's. I would have though the camelbak's without a strap around the waste would bounce around as you are running , how do you find the 1 you've linked above ?

Hi Concerned2,
I find it works great for me. When it's full at the start of the run you'd know it was there but not in an uncomfortable way, as the volume goes down I actually forget I'm carrying it at all. With the straps tightened to your body size there's no bounce at all. Not sure I'd get on as well with one of the bigger ones, the 1.5 litre seems to strike a happy balance for me. Hope this helps.
Neil

Mr Slow

neilc wrote: »

Hi Concerned2,
I find it works great for me. When it's full at the start of the run you'd know it was there but not in an uncomfortable way, as the volume goes down I actually forget I'm carrying it at all. With the straps tightened to your body size there's no bounce at all. Not sure I'd get on as well with one of the bigger ones, the 1.5 litre seems to strike a happy balance for me. Hope this helps.
Neil

Do the straps pin your shirt against you, chafing would be a concern on the longer runs.

ger664

mrslow wrote: »

Horses for courses, I'll take a few sips in the first mile and again before 5. It's a comfort thing for me but I've never been without on a run.

+1 Imagine peoples comments if the first water station in DCM was at Mile 10 :eek:

neilc

mrslow wrote: »

Do the straps pin your shirt against you, chafing would be a concern on the longer runs.

It hasn't been an issue for me so far mrslow, I wear it fairly snug so there's no movement to speak of to cause chafing. Saying that 10 miles is the longest I've run since I got it so time will tell.

ger664 wrote: »

+1 Imagine peoples comments if the first water station in DCM was at Mile 10

On runs longer than 10 miles I never wait till the 10 mile mark to have my first sip thought that goes without saying, obviously fluid intake would be spaced out over the course of the run. I was only saying that for me 10 miles or less I don't feel the need to bring water with me. Thought this was meant to be about sharing experiences.
Neil

ger664

neilc wrote: »

On runs longer than 10 miles I never wait till the 10 mile mark to have my first sip thought that goes without saying, obviously fluid intake would be spaced out over the course of the run. I was only saying that for me 10 miles or less I don't feel the need to bring water with me. Thought this was meant to be about sharing experiences.
Neil

Neil was only leg pulling u. I just feel that staying hydrated during training improves the quality of your training, the only time I would not bring water with me is on a 3-4 mile recovery run other then that I always carry a bottle.

I know some people find it hard to carry a bottle in their hand as they run, but as this is how you will get your water in Dublin, it is a skill well worth mastering.

rainbow kirby

It's very much an "each to their own" thing - I'd be more from the "couldn't be arsed if I'm going less than 10 miles" school of thought, but some people do prefer to always have something with them. Experiment of one and all of that - you have to find out what works for you!

neilc

ger664 wrote: »

Neil was only leg pulling u. I just feel that staying hydrated during training improves the quality of your training, the only time I would not bring water with me is on a 3-4 mile recovery run other then that I always carry a bottle.

I know some people find it hard to carry a bottle in their hand as they run, but as this is how you will get your water in Dublin, it is a skill well worth mastering.

No worries Ger, good point, well made.
Neil

runvia

Ok I am in too!

Been running just over two years average around 20+ miles aweek training when not racing more if I am. I havent raced in a good while due to work commitments but I am back on track now. Not 100% sure on times as it been ages since raced but last 10k was 58:xx about 8 months ago (endurance not speed is my game ). I am able to train 5-6 days a week and do not need to walk during training.

Hoping to do marathon sub 4.30 but not pushing for anytime, just to get through and I am raising money for Alzheimers research as well as saying YAY I did a marathon

Also doing Dub Half in Sept so will incorporate that into my training and doing the series races too.

Should be fun :eek:

RayCun

good to have you on board runvia.

Perkina3

Yeah on the water issue. When I was doing the LSR's last year, my mate and i would literally be doing 5 mile circuits in the phoenix park and stopping for between 45 and 75 seconds to take on board water. We would have taken the gels on the last few 100 metres to the car. It wasn't ideal but it worked like.

Cannot stand running with a bottle in hand. Got one of those bottles with the hole in the centre for ur hand and had thrown it away within 2 miles cuz it was driving me NUTS!

The camel pack is probably the way to go but again I find it slightly irratating. Considering trialing it again though because I need something and would prefer not to stop every few miles just to take on some liquids.

Dsenna

Hi all, Just popped in to say hello
planning to run my first marathon in Dublin this year , also doing the race series (5mile ,10mile , half marathon ) so wont make up my mind fully until after the half. Iam 45 this year and just back running for a little over a year ,did the BUPA run in the park last year as my first race ,time was 1.04.40 and again this year suffered a bit in the heat but home in 57.40 ,my 5km time (st patricks festival Dublin) was 26.12
I average about 15 miles per week at the moment my longest being 8miles in 1.15.00 and have started to follow the NIKE+RUNNING plan for marathon beginner over 28 weeks. Has anyone else used this plan and what do you think ? would be glad of any advice
thanks

RayCun

Dsenna wrote: »

I average about 15 miles per week at the moment my longest being 8miles in 1.15.00 and have started to follow the NIKE+RUNNING plan for marathon beginner over 28 weeks. Has anyone else used this plan and what do you think ? would be glad of any advice
thanks

Welcome on board Dsenna.
Can you link directly to that plan or attach a version?
(oh, maybe this is it?)

Dsenna

RayCun wrote: »

Welcome on board Dsenna.
Can you link directly to that plan or attach a version?
(oh, maybe this is it?)

the plan is at the nike+running
site under the "coach" section. I use this site as it allows me to carry my iphone for music when running which
also has the nike GPS app so I can download and track my running times ,distance and it also maps the run for me.

RayCun

I can't get into the plan itself without Nike membership, by the looks of it.
If it is this one, it looks fine. Builds up slowly, has step-back weeks, has faster sessions, tapers down at the end... checks all the boxes really. I don't know if it says anything about the pace of your longer runs, so I really should do a post about Long Slow Runs soon...

Dsenna

RayCun wrote: »

I can't get into the plan itself without Nike membership, by the looks of it.
If it is this one, it looks fine. Builds up slowly, has step-back weeks, has faster sessions, tapers down at the end... checks all the boxes really. I don't know if it says anything about the pace of your longer runs, so I really should do a post about Long Slow Runs soon...

yes thats the one ,thanks for having a look for me ,look forward to the LSR post , delighted to have found this forum ,looking forward to keeping in touch with you guys
thanks

BTH

RayCun wrote: »

I can't get into the plan itself without Nike membership, by the looks of it.
If it is this one, it looks fine. Builds up slowly, has step-back weeks, has faster sessions, tapers down at the end... checks all the boxes really. I don't know if it says anything about the pace of your longer runs, so I really should do a post about Long Slow Runs soon...

Are you going to tell us to do them fast?

Just figured out my 14 mile lsr on sunday was at 7:30 per mile pace. It felt pretty slow though. Certainly the HR was pretty low (forgot the HRM but know myself that I wasnt pushing it, wasnt breathless at any point)

On the water issue I brought up, the belt and camelback are roads I don't want to go down. I've had back problems before and I don't like the idea of something bouncing on my back/hips. A tri race belt with only a number is bad enough! Careful pre training stashing, or loops on days I'm confident that the motivation isnt going to lag look to be the best options.

Mr Slow

BetterThanHoyte wrote: »

Are you going to tell us to do them fast?
Just figured out my 14 mile lsr on sunday was at 7:30 per mile pace. It felt pretty slow though. Certainly the HR was pretty low (forgot the HRM but know myself that I wasnt pushing it, wasnt breathless at any point)

Long Slow Run

This should be run at between 45 seconds and 90 secs slower that your planned marathon pace. If you found 7:30 easy for 14 that's great but try doing 20 miles at that pace after doing 20 - 30 during the week (every week during training) with speed sessions etc, you'll end up burnt out, if not injured.

You'll be faster than most attempting their first marathon but there were a few people last year who didn't make it to the start line (never mind the finish) because they didn't train in a smart way.:)

kennjedy

Hi,

I meant to follow up on my previous first line post, so here goes..

I started running about 1 & 1/2 years ago. I did the DCM last year but I crashed and burned and finished it in about 4 hr 50. I think it was mostly due to not doing enough training.

I have been running a bit more this year and am finding it easier so far. Have run a couple of 4 & 5 mile races and one 10k race so far. My PBs are:


5km: 21.30
4 mile: 28.08
5 mile: 35.01
10km: 44.10
1/2 marathon (last year): 1hr 49

I run about 5 miles, 2 or 3 times a week

I just have one question, I signed up for the Kildare half marathon which is on in two weeks time. Did this really out of boredom. Is this a good idea or not ? I want to do well in the DCM this year (<4hrs), but will this upset the training schedule up to the DCM ?

The longest I have done in training is one 8 mile and one 10 mile at 8 min/mile pace. This was in the last two weeks.

If I do the Kildare half marathon, is it ok to go for a good time ?

Thanks for your help. Im really finding this thread useful for reading tips !

RayCun

kennjedy wrote: »

I just have one question, I signed up for the Kildare half marathon which is on in two weeks time. Did this really out of boredom. Is this a good idea or not ? I want to do well in the DCM this year (<4hrs), but will this upset the training schedule up to the DCM ?

It's a good idea! Your DCM training won't be starting until June anyway, and if you race a half marathon this month it will give you a great idea of your current ability, and help you tailor your DCM training.

(And while you're welcome to stay in the thread, I think you should consider a more challenging training plan than Higdon)

village runner

Kennjedy,

How do you expect to race the half well if you have only done 1 x 10 miler and 1 x 8 miler at apace that is way too quick going by your times. Based on current fitness would i be right to say your were pushing yourself ??


Why not ease into it and see how you feel after 8-10 miles and push on if you can.
Think of the big picture. Take it as a training session as you aint actually in great shape for it as the half is an endurance event. You will be running for 30 min longer than you have in some time. Enjoy it and then get in a long run every week and be ready for the nxt half you run and chances are you will be 15 min quicker.

kennjedy

RayCun wrote: »

It's a good idea! Your DCM training won't be starting until June anyway, and if you race a half marathon this month it will give you a great idea of your current ability, and help you tailor your DCM training.

(And while you're welcome to stay in the thread, I think you should consider a more challenging training plan than Higdon)

Thanks RayCun. Ill go it a go so. Ill also check out other training plans to see I would be able to for it.

village runner wrote: »

Kennjedy,

How do you expect to race the half well if you have only done 1 x 10 miler and 1 x 8 miler at apace that is way too quick going by your times. Based on current fitness would i be right to say your were pushing yourself ??


Why not ease into it and see how you feel after 8-10 miles and push on if you can.
Think of the big picture. Take it as a training session as you aint actually in great shape for it as the half is an endurance event. You will be running for 30 min longer than you have in some time. Enjoy it and then get in a long run every week and be ready for the nxt half you run and chances are you will be 15 min quicker.

Hi Village Runner,

Thanks for the reply. I think you are right, I probaly am pushing it too hard at the moment. Will just treat this as a training session and try to enjoy it !

BTH

mrslow wrote: »

Long Slow Run

This should be run at between 45 seconds and 90 secs slower that your planned marathon pace. If you found 7:30 easy for 14 that's great but try doing 20 miles at that pace after doing 20 - 30 during the week (every week during training) with speed sessions etc, you'll end up burnt out, if not injured.

You'll be faster than most attempting their first marathon but there were a few people last year who didn't make it to the start line (never mind the finish) because they didn't train in a smart way.:)

Just looking at McMillan (which seems to be the most trusted source round here) again and my marathon pace should be 6:52, although i don't expect to break 3 hours which is the suggested finish time on the website. That would be 38secs faster than my LSR this weekend, which is close to the 45 secs you mention. McMillan only adds 30sec, not 45. In any case, I run mostly off how I'm feeling, around a rough target pace. I'll most likely slow as i get close to 20 miles, but last Sundays 14 was my longest run ever, and it was very comfortable, and never breathless. In the 7 days before that I trained almost 10 hours, which included 20 miles running. I am very wary of injury and overtraining but I really don't think I'm over doing it right now. According to McMillan I'm at the faster end of my LSR pace, but still within their guidelines.

ecoli

BetterThanHoyte wrote: »

Just looking at McMillan (which seems to be the most trusted source round here) again and my marathon pace should be 6:52, although i don't expect to break 3 hours which is the suggested finish time on the website. That would be 38secs faster than my LSR this weekend, which is close to the 45 secs you mention. McMillan only adds 30sec, not 45. In any case, I run mostly off how I'm feeling, around a rough target pace. I'll most likely slow as i get close to 20 miles, but last Sundays 14 was my longest run ever, and it was very comfortable, and never breathless. In the 7 days before that I trained almost 10 hours, which included 20 miles running. I am very wary of injury and overtraining but I really don't think I'm over doing it right now. According to McMillan I'm at the faster end of my LSR pace, but still within their guidelines.

What may have happened is you put in a time from a shorter race which always seems to translate to very fast marathon time. The thing people forget is these calculators spit out times that you have the potential to run if you are training specifically for that event. Therefor you would have to have built up the aerobic strength.

Running by feel is a good way to be but people have a tendency to run to fast thinking they are running comfortable but are still taking a fair bit out of the body. There is no reason to worry bout injury as long as you build up slow and keep things nice and easy. The more miles you are doing the more miles you have to do at a slower pace than normal to allow your body adapt to the extra load

BTH

ecoli wrote: »

What may have happened is you put in a time from a shorter race which always seems to translate to very fast marathon time. The thing people forget is these calculators spit out times that you have the potential to run if you are training specifically for that event. Therefor you would have to have built up the aerobic strength.

And thats why I know McMillans sub 3 hours is unrealistic.

ecoli wrote: »

Running by feel is a good way to be but people have a tendency to run to fast thinking they are running comfortable but are still taking a fair bit out of the body. There is no reason to worry bout injury as long as you build up slow and keep things nice and easy. The more miles you are doing the more miles you have to do at a slower pace than normal to allow your body adapt to the extra load

To be fair I have built it up slowly. Building up for the last 6 months. And I have also ran the LSR too fast. Did 12.5mile at 7:12 pace 3-4 months ago, it was far too fast and I suffered a little because of it. Not sure why I set off at that pace but I learned my lesson! At the time is was the furthest I had ever run, and it was much faster than any of my previous LSRs so it was pretty stupid. But I think I learned what is comfortable and whats too fast from that. Time will tell.

Mr Slow

BetterThanHoyte wrote: »

Just looking at McMillan (which seems to be the most trusted source round here) again and my marathon pace should be 6:52, although i don't expect to break 3 hours which is the suggested finish time on the website. That would be 38secs faster than my LSR this weekend, which is close to the 45 secs you mention. McMillan only adds 30sec, not 45. In any case, I run mostly off how I'm feeling, around a rough target pace. I'll most likely slow as i get close to 20 miles, but last Sundays 14 was my longest run ever, and it was very comfortable, and never breathless. In the 7 days before that I trained almost 10 hours, which included 20 miles running. I am very wary of injury and overtraining but I really don't think I'm over doing it right now. According to McMillan I'm at the faster end of my LSR pace, but still within their guidelines.

As always Ecoli is spot on.

If I were you and take my advice or leave it, I'd run a comfortable marathon for your first, don't go chasing times, you'll most likely be the fastest in this group anyway but if you get through the first with a respectable time and really enjoy it, you'll have mentally conquered the marathon and will be in a much better place to run great times in the future.