Dublin Marathon 2011 Novices Mentored Thread

RayCun

This thread suggests Euro Cycle - Euro baby on South William Street. These are the ones I mean, you don't need to take them with water. The downside is they aren't as strong. I prefer the thicker, caffeinated ones, they have more of a kick, but those ones do need to be taken with water.

kit3

RayCun wrote: »

This thread suggests Euro Cycle - Euro baby on South William Street. These are the ones I mean, you don't need to take them with water. The downside is they aren't as strong. I prefer the thicker, caffeinated ones, they have more of a kick, but those ones do need to be taken with water.

Great - that's really near where I work. Great to know what they look like also - will feel like less of a wally looking for them. I've only ever taken water on board (and not too much to that even) so they'll be an improvement on that. I'll delude myself that the 18 miles on Sat should be easier now - think this marathon will involve a lot of psychological games for me ! Thanks for your help.

barking1503

Battling with an achilles injury for the past couple months. Missed probably 3 wks training in all and have spent small fortune between physios, acupuncture etc. It's manageable just now but nervous of my 20 this Sat and if it will hold up. The pain comes and goes on runs. There are a couple of nice nodules on it which show no signs of going. Anyone with any wisdom or advice on management of achilles v welcome. Am focussed at this stage on just making it to the start line...........wondering if anyone on this forum has ran 18+ before with achilles tendonitis and was it ok??

BobMac104

This may sound stupid but does anyone else find running quite slowly harder than a touch faster.

I am supposed to run my LSR's at around 9 45 to 10 00 minutes per mile but at this speed I actually feel worse than if i run at 9 15 to 9 30.

Is there a reason for this or am I odd? most of the time i end up running around the 9 25 9 30 mark for lsr's for this reason.

have i been undertraining my fat buring efficiency...?

Mr Slow

barking1503 wrote: »

Battling with an achilles injury for the past couple months. Missed probably 3 wks training in all and have spent small fortune between physios, acupuncture etc. It's manageable just now but nervous of my 20 this Sat and if it will hold up. The pain comes and goes on runs. There are a couple of nice nodules on it which show no signs of going. Anyone with any wisdom or advice on management of achilles v welcome. Am focussed at this stage on just making it to the start line...........wondering if anyone on this forum has ran 18+ before with achilles tendonitis and was it ok??

You're on the brink of seeking medical advice there, no two injuries are the same so nobody can advise you better than your physio.

Mr Slow

BobMac104 wrote: »

This may sound stupid but does anyone else find running quite slowly harder than a touch faster.

I am supposed to run my LSR's at around 9 45 to 10 00 minutes per mile but at this speed I actually feel worse than if i run at 9 15 to 9 30.

Is there a reason for this or am I odd? most of the time i end up running around the 9 25 9 30 mark for lsr's for this reason.

have i been undertraining my fat buring efficiency...?

What pace are you going for in the marathon?

ohdannyboy

Hi all. I went back to sport in may this year and have been jogging since then.also some cycling and swimming for my first triathlon last month. Since then I've stepped the running up. I've done 5k and 10k runs on competition. In training I have ran 20k 3 times, my longest distance. I do them in about 2 hrs 15 mins. I take it easy and feel I could jog further at that speed. I'm a 37 yr old male. Here's the crazy bit. Lately I have been thinking about doing this years marathon. I know I need to step up the distance to perhaps 35k between now and a couple of weeks before it and then wind down. I must stress time would not bother me too much, would just like to do it, hopefully in 4 anything...I'm going to keep doing roughly the higdon plan and increase slr's by 10% each time and see how it feels and that will help decide. I am determined. I have time to train but I would of course consider advice from those who have any to offer. Should I stay or should I go?

Mr Slow

ohdannyboy wrote: »

Hi all. I went back to sport in may this year and have been jogging since then.also some cycling and swimming for my first triathlon last month. Since then I've stepped the running up. I've done 5k and 10k runs on competition. In training I have ran 20k 3 times, my longest distance. I do them in about 2 hrs 15 mins. I take it easy and feel I could jog further at that speed. I'm a 37 yr old male. Here's the crazy bit. Lately I have been thinking about doing this years marathon. I know I need to step up the distance to perhaps 35k between now and a couple of weeks before it and then wind down. I must stress time would not bother me too much, would just like to do it, hopefully in 4 anything...I'm going to keep doing roughly the higdon plan and increase slr's by 10% each time and see how it feels and that will help decide. I am determined. I have time to train but I would of course consider advice from those who have any to offer. Should I stay or should I go?

Can you do it? Possibly

Should you do it? No

Respect the distance, pick a Spring marathon, train properly and specifically for it and do yourself justice instead of having a marathon medal and a chronic injury.

BobMac104

Mr Slow wrote: »

What pace are you going for in the marathon?

sorry i should have said...

hoping for 4 hours so around the 9 min mile.

menoscemo

BobMac104 wrote: »

sorry i should have said...

hoping for 4 hours so around the 9 min mile.

9:15-9:30 is still not too bad as it's at least slower than PMP. But what happens if you run 20 miles at 9'15 pace? Do you slow down coming to the end of your run? Do you struggle at all?

I always advise to start your LSR at the slower pace, and if you are feeling ok, speed up at the end. It's possible that you feel bad running a little slower because the body is burning more fat than Glycogen (it is more efficient and easier for the body to burn Glycogen). I'd advise you to try to join some of the group runs if possible and join the group running 10-10'30 min/mile. It really helps you enjoy the run when you go with other.

There is also a group that runs 9-9'30 min/mile but these guys are generally targetting sub 3'30.

RayCun

ohdannyboy wrote: »

In training I have ran 20k 3 times, my longest distance. ... I know I need to step up the distance to perhaps 35k between now and a couple of weeks before it and then wind down.

It's a bad idea.
You could probably make it around the course, if that's what you want to do. (The course is open for 7 hours, practically anybody can make it around)

But you don't have enough time for training to make you any better at running long distances. It's not just about running 30k and ticking a box on a chart, to improve you have to run spend weeks and months running consistent long distances - 20-30k in a single run, 50-60k in a week. It's the constant running that forces your body to adapt and improve, not a single long run.

The training you've been doing has made you better at running distances around 20k. You don't have time to train to run twice that distance (or for that training to have any effect, more accurately) So if you run the marathon this year, it will be at your current level of fitness.

BobMac104

menoscemo wrote: »

9:15-9:30 is still not too bad as it's at least slower than PMP. But what happens if you run 20 miles at 9'15 pace? Do you slow down coming to the end of your run? Do you struggle at all?

I always advise to start your LSR at the slower pace, and if you are feeling ok, speed up at the end. It's possible that you feel bad running a little slower because the body is burning more fat than Glycogen (it is more efficient and easier for the body to burn Glycogen). I'd advise you to try to join some of the group runs if possible and join the group running 10-10'30 min/mile. It really helps you enjoy the run when you go with other.

There is also a group that runs 9-9'30 min/mile but these guys are generally targetting sub 3'30.

Havent run 20 miles yet. 18 is the longest and ya was slowing down big time by then end . That fat /glycogen thing does make sense as its a whole body feeling not a tired legs thing.

I am going out with a local club for the first time next sunday morning for a LSR so looking forward to that and maybe it will help.

Thanks for the help lads, ye're great in fairness.

menoscemo

BobMac104 wrote: »

Havent run 20 miles yet. 18 is the longest and ya was slowing down big time by then end . That fat /glycogen thing does make sense as its a whole body feeling not a tired legs thing.

I am going out with a local club for the first time next sunday morning for a LSR so looking forward to that and maybe it will help.

Thanks for the help lads, ye're great in fairness.

Well if you are slowing down at the end of 18 it is pretty obvious that you went out too quick, so just be disciplined in the LSR's and start out slow. You might feel rubbish at the start but I guarantee you that you'll have more energy at the end of the run and will be able to speed up.

Anyone can go out fast and slow down but it is not very good training. Going out slow and speeding up a bit at the end is very good training because it is teaching your body to conserve Glycogen at the start of the run and leaving plenty in the tank for the end.

BobMac104

menoscemo wrote: »

Well if you are slowing down at the end of 18 it is pretty obvious that you went out too quick, so just be disciplined in the LSR's and start out slow. You might feel rubbish at the start but I guarantee you that you'll have more energy at the end of the run and will be able to speed up.

Anyone can go out fast and slow down but it is not very good training. Going out slow and speeding up a bit at the end is very good training because it is teaching your body to conserve Glycogen at the start of the run and leaving plenty in the tank for the end.

Thanks meno. great advice. I will be more diciplined in future with pacing on LSRs. looking forward to Sunday now!:)

Walker11

hi all another novice looking for some advice ..been following the halhigdon novice plan exactly (until this week, didn't run 5m yesterday, very tired legs). Did 1h31 in 10mile and 1h57 in halfmarathon, hoping for ~4.30 in marathon. Should I be running at 10min/mile for my 18mile LSR tomorrow? Is it normal to feel this tired..difficult to know whether to keep pushing or take a break but worried if I miss my 18mile this weekend it will mess things up..I guess I'll just have to give it a try..if it was easy everyone would do it right?

BobMac104

you could take tomorrow off and do the 18 miler on sunday?

and i think most of us novices are feeling it these days.... ive been using a bit of muscle rub on the legs this week and it seems to be helping me with recovery.

RayCun

Walker11 wrote: »

Did 1h31 in 10mile and 1h57 in halfmarathon, hoping for ~4.30 in marathon. Should I be running at 10min/mile for my 18mile LSR tomorrow?

You should never be running your LSRs at 10 minute pace, by the sound of it. You are planning to run the marathon at 10 minute pace - which looks about right, from your times in the race series - so your LSRs should be more like 11 minutes/mile.

Walker11

thanks that sounds right - my previous 16 mile LSR was 10.40m/mile so slowing it down will help!

Katie Daly

hi,

This is a great thread - pity i didn't realise it existed months ago!! I'm hoping someone might me able to give me some advice on a groin injury. I'm a first time marathoner and the training had been going well until I hurt my groin a few weeks ago. I've been attending physio but unfortunately he doesn't have a lot of experience with runners. I think I have strained it quite badly and its a bit sore when walking still. I took a week off when it happened but am trying to keep going with the training but am afriad of doing more damage. I managed to do the half last weekend and want to do the Athlone 3/4 next weekend so would like to do 17/18 this weekend. Has anyone any advice on running through a groin injury? Is there anything I can do strapping wise, any tips would be really appreciated!

Thanks a million, Kat

menoscemo

Katie Daly wrote: »

hi,

This is a great thread - pity i didn't realise it existed months ago!! I'm hoping someone might me able to give me some advice on a groin injury. I'm a first time marathoner and the training had been going well until I hurt my groin a few weeks ago. I've been attending physio but unfortunately he doesn't have a lot of experience with runners. I think I have strained it quite badly and its a bit sore when walking still. I took a week off when it happened but am trying to keep going with the training but am afriad of doing more damage. I managed to do the half last weekend and want to do the Athlone 3/4 next weekend so would like to do 17/18 this weekend. Has anyone any advice on running through a groin injury? Is there anything I can do strapping wise, any tips would be really appreciated!

Thanks a million, Kat

Wear compression shorts. Don't try to do any fast running. Don't stretch it (this can worsen the tear) and most importantly- go see a physio with experience in runners and get a proper diagnosis/ rehab programme. I managed to run through a groin injury last year bu it was only a very minor strain.

RacoonQueen

Katie Daly wrote: »

hi,

This is a great thread - pity i didn't realise it existed months ago!! I'm hoping someone might me able to give me some advice on a groin injury. I'm a first time marathoner and the training had been going well until I hurt my groin a few weeks ago. I've been attending physio but unfortunately he doesn't have a lot of experience with runners. I think I have strained it quite badly and its a bit sore when walking still. I took a week off when it happened but am trying to keep going with the training but am afriad of doing more damage. I managed to do the half last weekend and want to do the Athlone 3/4 next weekend so would like to do 17/18 this weekend. Has anyone any advice on running through a groin injury? Is there anything I can do strapping wise, any tips would be really appreciated!

Thanks a million, Kat

There's not really that much he can do to 'treat' it usually it's just ultrasound or laser therapy and massage used for muscular injuries. Depending on the severity of the injury, it's possible you shouldn't really be running. Fast running will only aggravate it. Did he tell you what grade/how severe the strain us or tell you not to run? You can tape it to take the pressure off it but you'd really need a physio to do it for you. He should be able to give you stretching and strengthening exercises for it.

Maybe you should see another physio.

slowsteady

ger664 wrote: »

Doing slow LSRs and taking the min amount of gels/food during them, the more efficient that that system will be on race day.

The suggestion is that it is more beneficial to grind out LSRs on water only so as to train the body to use its fat reserves rather than using energy drinks for fluid intake.

In that case, and I agree with it, how do you get used to taking energy drinks/gels for the big day because you will need them?

Mr Slow

slowsteady wrote: »

The suggestion is that it is more beneficial to grind out LSRs on water only so as to train the body to use its fat reserves rather than using energy drinks for fluid intake.

In that case, and I agree with it, how do you get used to taking energy drinks/gels for the big day because you will need them?

In my opinion you shouldn't 'run dry' on your first marathon because the training is about getting the miles into the legs, if you're in need of a gel on your first 20 miler and don't take it your form can suffer as you shuffle along and this can lead to injuries. I'm 'running dry' for DCM and it's fine because I've run two marathons, I know which gels and sports drinks agree with me and I've plenty of miles in the legs.

ger664

slowsteady wrote: »

The suggestion is that it is more beneficial to grind out LSRs on water only so as to train the body to use its fat reserves rather than using energy drinks for fluid intake.

In that case, and I agree with it, how do you get used to taking energy drinks/gels for the big day because you will need them?

I do one of my last 20 miler as a total prep for the race with exception of the pace. This will include my pre race nutrition as well.

People doing their first need to find out what gels/nutrition agrees with them so they need to try it earlier or at least should know at this stage in training.

Also I agree totally with Mr Slow's post above and would add take the gels towards the later end of the runs in and about the 2 hour mark.

shivDCM

slowsteady wrote: »

The suggestion is that it is more beneficial to grind out LSRs on water only so as to train the body to use its fat reserves rather than using energy drinks for fluid intake.

In that case, and I agree with it, how do you get used to taking energy drinks/gels for the big day because you will need them?

I found McMillan's article on this subject interesting:
http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/marathonlongrun.htm
Theres a fair bit of reading in it but he tackles it directly in the post script 3/4s of the way down.

A trial run 20 miler to try out gels/nutrition sounds like good advice and its what i'm going to do. I tried a couple of gels during the half too. The Powerbar gel made me want to puke, so thats off the list.

slowsteady

shivDCM wrote: »

I found McMillan's article on this subject interesting:
http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/marathonlongrun.htm
Theres a fair bit of reading in it but he tackles it directly in the post script 3/4s of the way down.

Thanks Mr Slow, Ger664 and shivDCM.

As a previous marathoner myself I have tried LSRs both with and without nutrition but I didn't have any clear methodology for mixing them up. It is good the see the above article advocating doing them alternately.

iliketorun

Hi, I signed up for the Dublin marathon at the end of July, just before going on holidays. My plan was to start training as soon as I got back. That would give me 12 weeks training. I am new to running but have developed a passion for it. I know it probably sounds foolish expecting to complete a marathon when I've only been running for 12 weeks. I am in decent shape because I cycle as much as I can(don't like driving and don't have much money to spend on petrol or public transport). I was curious to see how long it would take me to run a marathon.

In the beginning I guessed that I could probably run it in under 4 hours(possibly 3 45). I ran 30 miles in the first week and my last full week of running I did 40 miles(2 weeks ago). I was using Leibreich marathon calculator to get an idea of how well I was doing. I didn't follow a specific programme because the ones I found assume you already have some running experience. The runs in my first week of training gave predictions between 3 35 to 3 40. These times gradually improved as I got enthusiastic about the training. In week 6 they predicted times between 3 10 and 3 15.

I guess this gave me a false sense of security. A week and a half ago I got a hamstring injury and it hasn't healed. I am seeing a PT at the moment and she suggested I don't run until next week. I've been cycling alot and swimming a bit instead. I am concerned about doing the marathon now. Before my injury I was aiming for a time between 3 15 and 3 20. Assuming I am okay next week, I will only have 10 weeks running experience for the marathon. What worries me is that I will have to start my taper in 2 weeks(3 weeks before marathon). My longest run was 18 miles 2 wks ago(took 2 15 going at target marathon pace).

What would other runners here suggest I do? Should I aim for a more conservative time like 3 30, or would it be wise to just wait till I am more experienced and do another marathon in the future instead. I have a limp in my right leg and am unsure when I will be able to run again. I was hoping to do at 45 miles this week and do a long run of 21 miles tomorrow, which I obviously can't do.

Any similar experiences or advice would be greatly appreciated as I would really like to do the marathon. Thanks.

RayCun

You really should have followed a training programme

Trying to calculate a marathon time based on a training run is a bad idea, because how much of your maximum are you running at? Not 100% (probably) but 90%? 80%? 70%? Without knowing that, you can't make any useful extrapolations.

Plus a training plan would have put some useful structure to your training, building up at the right speed, including recovery weeks and a mix of different types of run. It would not have sent you out for an 18 mile run at marathon pace, and you would not have been racing yourself every week in training trying to get a better time for your calculator.

Anyway, enough about what you should have done...
I'd guess it depends on how soon your hamstring heals. If you're back running again in the next week or two you should be able to run the marathon. But I would suggest that you set yourself a more conservative target. Not just because of the injury - a week here or there isn't going to make much difference - but because this is your first marathon. You have no idea what you are going to feel like after 22 miles, and if you go out too hard you could hit the wall equally hard. You are better off setting yourself a softer target and finishing the race strong. For your next marathon, you can train better and you'll have a better idea of how hard you can push yourself in the race, so you can be more aggressive.

Mr Slow

+1 on the above, running at MP all the time will not have made any changes to your fat burning ability or your ability to store glycogen.

IMO you should aim for sub 4 hours (based on your current speed) hopefully finish strong and then you can look at doing the full training (following a comprehensive plan) and doing yourself justice in the race. If you go out at your current training pace you will blow up after 20/22 miles without doubt.

RayCun

If he's already done 18 7.30 miles, he's good for better than 4 hours.