iPhone tracks users' movements

Johnmb

BrianD wrote: »

You say that Apples profits come from their users - so does Googles.

While a fair bit off topic, I'd be interested to hear who you consider to be Google's users? If you mean the people who use the product (e.g. the person who has an android phone, or Chrome) then how exactly does Google get its profit from them? If you mean the advertisers that Google sell their information and ad space to, then fine, but how does that do the ordinary people any good? Apple makes its money from the ordinary people who use their iPhones, Macs etc. It's in their best interest to keep any information they gather to themselves to help them develop new ways to sell more products to maximise profits. Google on the other hand don't have any hardware, it is in their best interest to sell your information on to as many buyers as possible to maximise their profits.

seamus

BrianD wrote: »

There's no silly sensationalism here. Apple have been caught red handed capturing and storing private data on the devices they sell. They have doing this by design and have declared it as a feature to their customers. This is unethical and dishonest from a brand that prides itself as being a lighthouse brand with lofty values.

Storing information about someone on their own personal device is unethical now?
There is no evidence whatsoever that any data is sent to Apple nor that there is or has been ever any plans to do so. I'm pretty sure these security researchers lifted every rock and piece of code they could to find some evidence that the data was being nefariously transmitted. But they didn't. The information is simply being stored, again on the person's own device and nowhere else.

It's only people who are obsessed about privacy to the point of delusion who have taken this news and assumed that it means that Apple are now spying on people and sending information to the CIA.

It would most likely be used for some sort of location based marketing or advertising services e.g. iAds Anybody who is in this sphere would love this info - I can see you went to Tescos 4 times in a month spent X and an average 16 min journey time and so on.

Well the info isn't being sent to anyone else. And can't be, really. In this country Data Protection would annihilate them. And many european countries have similar policies. You can't include "clauses" in EULAs and the like, you have to specifically get Irish people's buy-in on that.

For a company the size of Apple, intentionally hiding nefarious code and illegal collecting information will eventually lead them being destroyed by the courts, because they will be found out. So this is not happening.

However, there's a fair argument to say that this could be used for targetted iAds - show ads which are relevant to the user's current location. But there's a problem with that; Most people already use location services and allow location services on their phone. This seems like a lot of effort to go to, to try and send ads to a statistically small number of people who have GPS functionality switched off. Indeed, anyone who goes to the effort to switch off location services is unlikely to respond positively to relevant ads.

As usual, the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one.

The reason this is a big security concern is because someone can steal your handset and use the information to profile your movements. Where someone is (for example) a bank manager, you don't need to be following them around for a couple of weeks to see what they're doing. Instead you just rob their phone, analyse it and you instantly know what time they usually leave for work, what route they normally take, what time they usually get home, go to bed, go shopping, etc. Steal his wife's phone and you can get a full mash-up of the entire family's daily routine over the past year.
That's a big problem.

The next iOS update will probably include an auto-delete patch for this.

Sad Professor

BrianD wrote: »

What's unique about Apple is that it's an integrated channel. They have control of your device and what you put on it (for the average joe soap) and the payment channels that you use.

That's true. But so what? What has this got to do with them not caring about their customers or their privacy? Google have a unique position in terms of their control of people's personal data, no? But you think they are benign. Why?

I wouldn't characterise Apple as solely a hardware company. Yes, I'm sure the bulk of their revenues comes from there but their non-hardware activities - specificallu iTunes - can only get bigger and bigger. The scope of expanding iTunes to sell almost anything is there.

Perhaps. But this is not the case at the moment. So your statement that their business is "not about selling hardware" is incorrect. I know there's there's an theory out there that Apple keep such tight control over their hardware because they want to redirect people to their supposedly real revenue stream in iTunes and the App Store, but the figures don't support it at the moment. As of right now, iTunes, the App Store, subscriptions, whatever, are just other ways for Apple to make their devices more appealing than their competitors.

You are certainly right about philantrophy - not an ounce of it in Apple or Steve Jobs.

That there is a record of. Not every wealth individual calls their publicist every time they make a donation. But what has that got to do with anything?

~Rebel~

Johnmb wrote: »

I'd be with Sad Professor on this. Even if Apple are planning on using this info to try to make more money out of me, at least I know it is Apple who has, and is using, the information. I don't even use Chrome because I don't trust Google with my information, who knows who they'd be selling it on to. Apple get it, Apple use it, Google get it, whoever pays uses it.

They don't actually get this information - you do. The only issue here is that you didn't know you did.

Personally, I dont care.

Some people have said they dont want their boss knowing they were going for an interview elsewhere. Then don't sync your phone with their machine or give them your phone.

At the end of the day, there are a lot of emails and other bits and bobs on my phone id rather everyone didn't have access to - so i don't give other people access to them. Its the same with this.

Sad Professor

bedlam wrote: »

Some clarifications and corrections regarding the research done by the O'Reily Duo

Hopefully this will put an end to all the sinister theories about how Apple are using this data... but I doubt it. The blog sites need their hits.

PogMoThoin

Watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GynEFV4hsA0

The information gathered isn't all from the one device, its from iphone 3GS and 2x iphone 4's he's owned in that time

Whats the big issue here is not that the information is stored, but that its completely un-encrypted and there is no way for the iphone user to delete it. Lose your phone and the finder has your movements for the last year

Stuxnet

Untrackerd tweak from cydia will stop it

Johnmb

~Rebel~ wrote: »

They don't actually get this information - you do.

Yeah I know, but the conspiracy theorists say they plan on getting that information to use it. My point was that even if they do make such changes, at least I know who is getting my information, and I'd be ok with that as Apple wouldn't sell it to anyone else.

mufcboy1999

Mellor wrote: »

Candidate for stupidiest post ever (and yes i know you were joking)

you must of left your sense of humor on the plane over to Sydney. Candidate for biggest dry arse ever:D.

PogMoThoin

Johnmb wrote: »

Yeah I know, but the conspiracy theorists say they plan on getting that information to use it. My point was that even if they do make such changes, at least I know who is getting my information, and I'd be ok with that as Apple wouldn't sell it to anyone else.

Yeah, right,

Even your local Super Valu and Topaz sell your info, You agree to it once you sign up to their rewards tag. Apple just getting in on the game

Sad Professor

It needs to be emphasised once again that there's no evidence that Apple is collecting this data.

Apple is not harvesting this data from your device. This is data on the device that you as the customer purchased and unless they can show concrete evidence supporting this claim – network traffic analysis of connections to Apple servers – I rebut this claim in full. Through my research in this field and all traffic analysis I have performed, not once have I seen this data traverse a network. As rich of data as this might be, it’s actually illegal under California state law:

https://alexlevinson.wordpress.com/2011/04/21/3-major-issues-with-the-latest-iphone-tracking-discovery/

PogMoThoin

The very fact that the devices collected it and leave it un-encrypted on the devices says it all TBH

Sad Professor

PogMoThoin wrote: »

The very fact that the devices collected it and leave it un-encrypted on the devices says it all TBH

What about all the other info that is stored on the phone? Calendars, email, browsing history - they aren't encrypted by default either.

Johnmb

PogMoThoin wrote: »

Yeah, right,

Even your local Super Valu and Topaz sell your info, You agree to it once you sign up to their rewards tag. Apple just getting in on the game

They're not Apple. Apple are in competition with other hardware vendors, such as Samsung, HTC, Dell, Nokia, etc. One of the advantages they have is information on their customers that those other vendors could only dream of (although they don't have the information that is the subject of this thread). They wouldn't sell that information because then they would lose their advantage. They have it, and they use it. If they sold it, their competitors would have it and use it, not very smart.

PogMoThoin

Sad Professor wrote: »

What about all the other info that is stored on the phone? Calendars, email, browsing history - they aren't encrypted by default either.

Yes but its the user puts them there, its the users responsibility what information he has on his phone. This is info thats gathered without permission and stored in a place not easily accessible to the user. People need to have the choice and a way and of at least deleting this data. It should be encrypted

cornbb

There's an awful lot of hand wringing and sensationalism about this. The Guardian calls it a "hidden" file. Isn't every file on iOS hidden from the user? It's not a secret that the iPhone collects location information, and it's not a secret that software logs or caches data for all sorts of reasons. Private data is being gathered on a private device and is being kept on that device and/or the owner's computer. Nobody seems to be emphasising that none of this data is going anywhere else. I can't understand why people are freaking out about this and saying nothing about googles practices, given that their core business is targetted advertising...

Sad Professor

PogMoThoin wrote: »

Yes but its the user puts them there, its the users responsibility what information he has on his phone. This is info thats gathered without permission and stored in a place not easily accessible to the user. People need to have the choice and a way and of at least deleting this data. It should be encrypted

They can encrypt it themselves quite easily, along with everything else. It's a little box in iTunes - you tick it, problem solved. And they can set a passcode on their phone. If they care about the privacy of their emails, contacts, etc they will have already done this.

aidan_walsh

It’s not just the iPhone, Android stores your location data too
It appears to be cell tower information collected, not your GPS information.

Rambo

bren2002 wrote: »

Id love to see a Windows version of the mapping software.

I love to have a iphone app to read the data, would be cool
to look back where you have been

HINT HINT Vinny Coyne

PogMoThoin

aidan_walsh wrote: »

It’s not just the iPhone, Android stores your location data too

Article says Android overwrites info after 12-48 hours, iOS stores it indefinitely

aidan_walsh

PogMoThoin wrote: »

Article says Android overwrites info after 12-48 hours, iOS stores it indefinitely

So maybe thats a bug. Or maybe Apple decide to cache information longer than Google do. Either way there is no evidence that its used by anything off system.

Sad Professor

The article also says this:

The size of the database on the iPhone is what Eriksson attributes the accuracy of the location maps created by the iPhone location data file to. Normally the data would be much more crude, but with a lot more data sampling to work with, the map grows more detailed and more accurate.

This means that the only reason that the Apple system yields such detailed results is that it has far more data than it’s supposed to have in it’s database.

PogMoThoin

It'll certainly be interesting what Apple say on the matter

aidan_walsh

You know I wouldn't be surprised if it was intentional. There are benefits to keeping the information on record (speculatively faster location services results and better hand offs between cell zones as you move between towers) and the storage cost of the data is pretty much nought compared to the capacity of the device. By keeping the information longer you don't need to regularily repoll at the expense of battery life when the user may not be venturing far from specific areas very often.

I'm betting its intentional, and simply that such an uproar was never considered.

Rambo

using windows 7

Just extracted the file consolidated.db from phone backup
I used the full version of MobileSyncBrowser

download sqlite browser open consolidated.db
and there was all the data
mac.timestamp,latitude longitude


anybody know how to translate this time stamp
298852557.902248

PogMoThoin

aidan_walsh wrote: »

I'm betting its intentional, and simply that such an uproar was never considered.

This one isn't going to go away
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20110421/twl-hidden-iphone-file-tracks-users-ever-3fd0ae9.html
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Technology/Video-Apple-Security-Called-Into-Question-After-Tracking-File-Found-In-iPhones-And-iPads/Article/201104315976574?lpos=Technology_First_World_News_Article_Teaser_Region_3&lid=ARTICLE_15976574_Video%3A_Apple_Security_Called_Into_Question_After_Tracking_File_Found_In_iPhones_And_iPads
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13145562

aidan_walsh

PogMoThoin wrote: »

This one isn't going to go away
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20110421/twl-hidden-iphone-file-tracks-users-ever-3fd0ae9.html
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Technology/Video-Apple-Security-Called-Into-Question-After-Tracking-File-Found-In-iPhones-And-iPads/Article/201104315976574?lpos=Technology_First_World_News_Article_Teaser_Region_3&lid=ARTICLE_15976574_Video%3A_Apple_Security_Called_Into_Question_After_Tracking_File_Found_In_iPhones_And_iPads
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13145562

Many said the antenna uproar was never going to go away either, if I recall correctly.

jamesbrond

Rambo wrote: »

I love to have a iphone app to read the data, would be cool
to look back where you have been

HINT HINT Vinny Coyne

Me too. There are times i'd love to know where i've been in the last few days.

cornbb

Point to note: user locations are not being recorded, the locations of cell towers in the vicinity are. I wonder if all the people freaking out about this consider that their network (O2 or whoever) are constantly logging the same information.

Some of the headlines are ridiculous. There's a world of difference between "Apple is tracking iPhone users' movements" and "iPhones log the location of nearby cell towers". Which is more accurate?

~Rebel~

For **** sake the false information is insane!

Just saw on the rte news they're stating apple collects this information when this is simply not the case. This will actually really hurt sales and marketing image in the short to medium term id say, despite the fact it's largely unsubstianted rumour-mongering going on.

Nuts that the news can get away with stating something like that with zero proof to back it up.