Alternative therapies

eilo1

A friend of mine is studying herbal medicine. She is very into alternative therapies and only eats organic food and generally goes against medical advice (she has a chronic illness and will not follow gp advice).

Anyway's unfortunately her dad now has prostate cancer and is delaying treatment because he wants to fly abroad and have an alternative treatment instead. The practitioner promises a 50/50 chance of success this is not only not evidence based but also below the survival rate of traditional treatment.

So please discuss, personally I think this kind of quakary should be banned but then Im biased. What do the witty AH's peeps have to say on the matter?

AnonoBoy

Your friend is a f*cking moron.

mickydoomsux

Get her to read the book "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre.

Shows a lot of the science (or lack thereof) behind alternative therapy. If that doesn't sway her then **** her.

diddlybit

I have no problem with alternative medecine for minor complaints, but do find the treatment of terminal illneses with it problematic. There are no studies or evidence of its effects in these cases. Use it as a supplement by all means, but no also the only way to cure it.

As my grandfather was dying of cancer, he got fixated on a potion that some guy he knew from his church used to sell to him out of the boot of his car at an exordinate price. Guy was just trying to make a quick buck out of a sick, dying man. It was disgusting.

I don't think they should be banned, but they should be regulated and proper research conducted.

easyeason3

Alternative medicine has it's uses. I usually try to avoid painkillers or antibiotics as much as I can because I personally think GPs are too quick to write out a prescription that I may not need. When my GP sees me going into his surgery he knows I'm genuinely sick instead of looking for a prescription & sympathy.

In the case of a serious or long term illness then I feel you are insane if you rely soley on alternative medicines to cure you.

'New' medical treatments & alternative therapies can actually be used in harmony if used properly.

Oh_Noes

eilo1 wrote: »

So please discuss, personally I think this kind of quakary should be banned but then Im biased.

If your friend has a chronic illness herself and has been treating it successfully then why do you think it's quackery?

A lot of people in that position get frustrated with how Western medicine concentrates specifically on the manifestation of the illness rather than the whole. If her dad has confidence in her then I don't know why you would have a problem with it.

What is the success rate of traditional treatment for the type of cancer he has?

Krusader

Isn't there suppose to be a doctor in Italy that cures cancer with Baking Soda (Sodium Bi-Carbonate), it occurs naturally in nature so drug companies can't patent it

tony 2 tone

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Get her to read the book "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre.

Shows a lot of the science (or lack thereof) behind alternative therapy. If that doesn't sway her then **** her.

Also have a look at "Trick or Treatment" by Simon Singh and Edzard Ernst, goes over various alternative treatments and shows if they are worth while or not.

mikemac

I am a fan of alternative therapy. There realy is a lot there and a lot to learn.

Yeah there is some quackery but there are terrible GP's and doctors in Ireland also

If your dad has confidence in this they give it a go

eilo1

Oh_Noes wrote: »

If your friend has a chronic illness herself and has been treating it successfully then why do you think it's quackery?

A lot of people in that position get frustrated with how Western medicine concentrates specifically on the manifestation of the illness rather than the whole. If her dad has confidence in her then I don't know why you would have a problem with it.

What is the success rate of traditional treatment for the type of cancer he has?

She has isn't treating it successfully, she has been trying to treat it for the last 18 months with purely alternative therapies and has had no success. She will admit that herself, that isn't just my observation.

The cancer is early diagnosed prostate so about 80% survival after 5 years. Although they have said it is aggressive therefore early treatment should be vital.

EverEvolving

As Dara O'Briain put it so well "Herbal medicine has been around for years and we tested it and the stuff that works became medicine"

dar4

Crosáidí wrote: »

Isn't there suppose to be a doctor in Italy that cures cancer with Baking Soda (Sodium Bi-Carbonate), it occurs naturally in nature so drug companies can't patent it

is this so id like/hope for sum more info on this please

easyeason3

eilo1 wrote: »

She has isn't treating it successfully, she has been trying to treat it for the last 18 months with purely alternative therapies and has had no success. She will admit that herself, that isn't just my observation.

The cancer is early diagnosed prostate so about 80% survival after 5 years. Although they have said it is aggressive therefore early treatment should be vital.

So can he not use medical & alternative treatments at the same time to optimise his chances?

dar4

EverEvolving wrote: »

As Dara O'Briain put it so well "Herbal medicine has been around for years and we tested it and the stuff that works became medicine"

the chinise were cureing things with herbs while we were stuck in the dark ages

epgc3fyqirnbsx

This clip says it all for me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0

eilo1

he needs to go to Germany for 5 weeks to start the alternative treatment. He is also refusing to begin hormone therapy. I dont know why, but she has hinted that they are worried about the long term toxicity of these treatments.

To me this sounds like risking your life on a 2 horse race, when one horse has never run before!

Im studying to be a physio so this is really upsetting and stressful to me. I just cant understand the mentality.

Fluorescence

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHVVKAKWXcg

Crock of shit. If it was a valid treatment it would be adopted by western medicine.

Biologic

Crosáidí wrote: »

Isn't there suppose to be a doctor in Italy that cures cancer with Baking Soda (Sodium Bi-Carbonate), it occurs naturally in nature so drug companies can't patent it

Don't come out with crap like that please. There's almost sure to be someone with cancer reading this thread, they dont deserve to have their desperation taken advantage of by uninformed posts like yours.
Re: your friend OP. She's an idiot. If you're talking to her, tell her I've got some magic beans for sale. Good price for her.

Non AH response: Many, if not most traditional herbal remedies do in fact have viability as a solution or aid to medical problems. Most medicines were discovered in plants. The reason a doctor will not hand out the plant is because synthesising the active chemicals in a lab is more economical and easier to regulate in terms of dosage, administration etc. In other words, it's safer. While I would always go to the doctor for serious health problems, I do use herbal remedies (mainly teas, because I like drinking them anyway) to help stuff like sleep, energy levels, digestion. Stuff that I figure what the hell.

Your friend isn't being unwise by seeking herbal remedies, but she is being unwise to seek them not only in favour of but instead of conventional western medicine. Her actions are probably dangerous to her health. But it's her choice and it could well turn out that she's a lot smarter than any of us.

AH response: em... something about blasting with piss? I hear it's good for the skin...

eilo1

Biologic wrote: »

Don't come out with crap like that please. There's almost sure to be someone with cancer reading this thread, they dont deserve to have their desperation taken advantage of by uninformed posts like yours.
Re: your friend OP. She's an idiot. If you're talking to her, tell her I've got some magic beans for sale. Good price for her.

I dont really want to make this too serious, but I do find it really hard to hold my tongue around her!

Im just trying to be supportive and objective at the same time, which basically means saying "okay, sure, well if thats what he wants............."

easyeason3

eilo1 wrote: »

he needs to go to Germany for 5 weeks to start the alternative treatment. He is also refusing to begin hormone therapy. I dont know why, but she has hinted that they are worried about the long term toxicity of these treatments.

To me this sounds like risking your life on a 2 horse race, when one horse has never run before!

Im studying to be a physio so this is really upsetting and stressful to me. I just cant understand the mentality.

I don't want to sound harsh but if he doesn't take every option of treatment available to him the he won't have to worry about long term toxicity affecting him.

dvpower

dar4 wrote: »

the chinise were cureing things with herbs while we were stuck in the dark ages

But that was, well, back in the dark ages.
Much of modern medicine has its origens in plants etc. We've isolated the active ingredients, tested them, and made medicines from them.

El Weirdo

Ah. Darwinism at work.

doctor evil

In todays Irish Times health supplement there are one or two articles on herbs in medicine.

IMO the stuff that works becomes medicine and the rest is hogwash. If water has memory would it not remember all the cr*p it has been through? (homeopathy)

dar4

Biologic wrote: »

Don't come out with crap like that please. There's almost sure to be someone with cancer reading this thread, they dont deserve to have their desperation taken advantage of by uninformed posts like yours.
Re: your friend OP. She's an idiot. If you're talking to her, tell her I've got some magic beans for sale. Good price for her.

jim stynes ? is still alive why?

Krusader

dar4 wrote: »

is this so id like/hope for sum more info on this please

Coriolanus

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Get her to read the book "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre.

Shows a lot of the science (or lack thereof) behind alternative therapy. If that doesn't sway her then **** her.

I'd suggest fúcking her regardless.

Anyway, yeah, get the the book. Few euros on amazon will get it for you. It could very well save her life.

Miguel_Sanchez

Crosáidí wrote: »

Isn't there suppose to be a doctor in Italy that cures cancer with Baking Soda (Sodium Bi-Carbonate), it occurs naturally in nature so drug companies can't patent it

Ah that's handy. I'll just go get some now. I wonder will it raise all the family members I've lost to cancer from the dead as well?

They're going to feel fairly silly when they find out they died when the cure was in the press beside the salt and behind the raisins the whole time.

Krusader

Biologic wrote: »

Don't come out with crap like that please. There's almost sure to be someone with cancer reading this thread, they dont deserve to have their desperation taken advantage of by uninformed posts like yours.
Re: your friend OP. She's an idiot. If you're talking to her, tell her I've got some magic beans for sale. Good price for her.

It's not unimformed, there is a Dr. in Italy that believes he can cure it with Baking Soda

dvpower

doctor evil wrote: »

In todays Irish Times health supplement there are one or two articles on herbs in medicine.

IMO the stuff that works becomes medicine and the rest is hogwash. If water has memory would it not remember all the cr*p it has been through?

Homeopathy != Herbal medicine.

Homeopathy is pure hogwash mind.

doctor evil

OP do you think the daughter is pushing these ideas on him or is he in some kind of denial? Elder abuse can come in many forms...

Orando Broom

easyeason3 wrote: »

I don't want to sound harsh but if he doesn't take every option of treatment available to him the he won't have to worry about long term toxicity affecting him.

The worms aetin' him out of the ground won't give two fücks about toxicity either. Alternative remedies are find for crap like bloat or smelly farts that kind of stuff but medicine, western, peer reviewed medicine took the best and most potent of these therapies and made them work. Any ways far too many cranks in the AT game preyimg on the vulnerabilities of ill people.

Regards the OP's friend, you are best to stay quiet. It is a family issue and unfortunately none of your business. Just be there for her when there are tough times in the future.

Giselle

Crosáidí wrote: »

It's not unimformed, there is a Dr. in Italy that
believes he can cure it with Baking Soda

Just because he believes it doesn't make it true.

doctor evil

dvpower wrote: »

Homeopathy != Herbal medicine.

Homeopathy is pure hogwash mind.

Thread is about alternative medicines, should have clarified the last bit. It was meant to illustrate the daftness of AM.

dvpower

Crosáidí wrote: »

It's not unimformed, there is a Dr. in Italy that believes he can cure it with Baking Soda

No doubt he believes it. Lots of people 'believe' lots of stuff.

desertcircus

Strictly speaking, there's nothing stopping a seriously ill person from trying both traditional Western treatments and alternative "medicine" at the same time. There's also nothing stopping a seriously ill person from combining Western-style allopathic medicine and prayer to He-Man, Holder Of The Power Of Grayskull for all the good it might do.

People who profit from alternative "medicine" are either liars and con artists, or delusional lunatics. Either way, there's no way in hell they should be allowed to try to flog their snake oil to desperate people in appalling circumstances. Seriously. Anyone found to be selling a "treatment" to someone with a serious illness is by definition either scum or mad, and the only question after that is whether they deserve a cell with brick walls or padded ones.

dar4

Giselle wrote: »

Just because he believes it doesn't make it true.

true story my grandfather drank and smoked every day of his life washed his teeth with sut from the chinmey and baking soda eat fresh veg and kept fit he dyed at 94 and i might add didnt go the docter much

Krusader

Giselle wrote: »

Just because he believes it doesn't make it true.

Well Daw

Krusader

dar4 wrote: »

true story my grandfather drank and smoked every day of his life washed his teeth with sut from the chinmey and baking soda eat fresh veg and kept fit he dyed at 94 and i might add didnt go the docter much

Baking Soda is a great cure for a hangover, it's actually one of the ingredients in Alka Selzer

desertcircus

easyeason3 wrote: »

So can he not use medical & alternative treatments at the same time to optimise his chances?

It doesn't optimise anything. If it's not already medicine, then it falls into one of two categories.

1. We don't know if it's good or bad for this illness. Probably a thoroughly dangerous idea to take a patient already undergoing serious treatment and just feed them something random, to be honest - the effects are as likely to be bad as good.

2. We've tested it, and it's actively bad. This one is a massive no-no.

You can only optimise by adding a treatment if that treatment is shown to work better than placebo in a randomised double-blind trial. If it's not, you could well be making things worse, which is definitely not optimising anything.

easyeason3

Orando Broom wrote: »

The worms aetin' him out of the ground won't give two fücks about toxicity either. Alternative remedies are find for crap like bloat or smelly farts that kind of stuff but medicine, western, peer reviewed medicine took the best and most potent of these therapies and made them work. Any ways far too many cranks in the AT game preyimg on the vulnerabilities of ill people.

Regards the OP's friend, you are best to stay quiet. It is a family issue and unfortunately none of your business. Just be there for her when there are tough times in the future.

I agree with that statement but there is something in AT. I have had family & friends going to what I would describe as quacks - idiots that think they know what they are doing & somehow manage to convince others that they are good at what they do.

One friend I have has gone to a man who is considered a healer. Whatever he does seems to work. She is using medical treatment along with the healer & hasn't looked back. Her health is the best it has been in a long time.

So yes you are right that there are con artists out there waiting to make money but there is a few who have a natural gift. There is something in AT if you meet the right person but it certainly isn't the be all & end all of a serious medical condition. AT can compliment medical treatment to benefit the patient.

dvpower

tony 2 tone wrote: »

Also have a look at "Trick or Treatment" by Simon Singh and Edzard Ernst, goes over various alternative treatments and shows if they are worth while or not.

That's a good book. It looks at various herbal treatments and the various clinical trials that have been done on them. Some have some evidence to back them (but iirc those that do have a modern medical alternative that have more and better evidence)

Biologic

Crosáidí wrote: »

It's not unimformed, there is a Dr. in Italy that believes he can cure it with Baking Soda

Ah, when you put it like that it's clear you know what you're talking about.

Giselle

dar4 wrote: »

true story my grandfather drank and smoked every day of his life washed his teeth with sut from the chinmey and baking soda eat fresh veg and kept fit he dyed at 94 and i might add didnt go the docter much

Right.

Not really seeing your point here.:)

El Weirdo

easyeason3 wrote: »

One friend I have has gone to a man who is considered a healer. Whatever he does seems to work. She is using medical treatment along with the healer & hasn't looked back. Her health is the best it has been in a long time.

Your anecdote is not evidence that it works.

easyeason3

desertcircus wrote: »

It doesn't optimise anything. If it's not already medicine, then it falls into one of two categories.

1. We don't know if it's good or bad for this illness. Probably a thoroughly dangerous idea to take a patient already undergoing serious treatment and just feed them something random, to be honest - the effects are as likely to be bad as good.

2. We've tested it, and it's actively bad. This one is a massive no-no.

You can only optimise by adding a treatment if that treatment is shown to work better than placebo in a randomised double-blind trial. If it's not, you could well be making things worse, which is definitely not optimising anything.

So acupuncture, meditation, natural supplements & changing a persons diet can be bad for an illness?
I know people who have no illness but do the above in order to gain more energy, feel healthier & feel more relaxed. None of the above would hinder medical treatment as far as I know.

Bloody Nipples

true-or-false wrote: »

Non AH response: Many, if not most traditional herbal remedies do in fact have viability as a solution or aid to medical problems. Most medicines were discovered in plants. The reason a doctor will not hand out the plant is because synthesising the active chemicals in a lab is more economical and easier to regulate in terms of dosage, administration etc. In other words, it's safer. While I would always go to the doctor for serious health problems, I do use herbal remedies (mainly teas, because I like drinking them anyway) to help stuff like sleep, energy levels, digestion. Stuff that I figure what the hell.

Your friend isn't being unwise by seeking herbal remedies, but she is being unwise to seek them not only in favour of but instead of conventional western medicine. Her actions are probably dangerous to her health. But it's her choice and it could well turn out that she's a lot smarter than any of us.

AH response: em... something about blasting with piss? I hear it's good for the skin...

True as far as it goes but tablets can contain far higher quantities of medicinal compounds than are found in a single plant, like a single Vit C tablet contains the same Vitamin C conc. of 20 oranges. While it is her friends choice, Dara O'Briain's point still stands that if it works the doc is going to get his hands on it. Doctors have access to a far wider range of medicines and potential medicines than any alternative practitioner and have the efforts of thousands of researchers behind them, in microbiology, biochemistry, neuroscience, human physiology and other areas of biomedical research churning out info on those treatments already available and actively looking for new ones.

Any potential treatments one of these quacks has will, in all likelihood, have been studied by someone with actual scientific expertise on it and it will have been accepted or discarded based on its merits as medical treatment.

eilo1

doctor evil wrote: »

OP do you think the daughter is pushing these ideas on him or is he in some kind of denial? Elder abuse can come in many forms...

Ah you see its complicated, he has some pre-cancerous cells a year ago. She encouraged him to take on an organic "healthy" diet and some herbs. He lost lots of weight and on reassessment 1 year later all cells where gone. Until he had some pain and they thought he might have gall stones. The family are fortunate to have health insurance and he went in for an investigation and the cancer was found.

Im a bit confused as to where his motivation comes from. I assume it is a combination of media fear mongering, a lack of acceptance of his situation and the blind faith he has in alternative therapy.

He cannot do both therapies at once as he needs to travel to Germany to start the alternative one. The German treatment lasts for 5 weeks.

Paparazzo

dar4 wrote: »

jim stynes ? is still alive why?

Chemotherapy and surgery

dvpower

Crosáidí wrote: »

Baking Soda is a great cure for a hangover, it's actually one of the ingredients in Alka Selzer

It has a number of medical uses. Curing cancer isn't one of them.

desertcircus

easyeason3 wrote: »

One friend I have has gone to a man who is considered a healer. Whatever he does seems to work. She is using medical treatment along with the healer & hasn't looked back. Her health is the best it has been in a long time.

The mind boggles. God forbid we might credit her recovery to the stuff she's using that's been tested in controlled circumstances and been shown to have exactly the effect she's now experiencing. Clearly it's the crank/fraudster with the fabulous line in bollockology that made her better, not the TESTED BLOODY REGIME OF TREATMENT THAT'S SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO MAKE HER BETTER.

I mean, really. She's on Treatment A, which has been tested, examined, and found to be good at treating what's wrong with her; and Treatment B, which is ten minutes of chanting and moving hands around while an incense stick burns in the background. And you're crediting Treatment B? You might as well credit her reading a new magazine for it.