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Alternative therapies

eilo1

A friend of mine is studying herbal medicine. She is very into alternative therapies and only eats organic food and generally goes against medical advice (she has a chronic illness and will not follow gp advice).

Anyway's unfortunately her dad now has prostate cancer and is delaying treatment because he wants to fly abroad and have an alternative treatment instead. The practitioner promises a 50/50 chance of success this is not only not evidence based but also below the survival rate of traditional treatment.

So please discuss, personally I think this kind of quakary should be banned but then Im biased. What do the witty AH's peeps have to say on the matter?

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Orando Broom

easyeason3 wrote: »

I don't want to sound harsh but if he doesn't take every option of treatment available to him the he won't have to worry about long term toxicity affecting him.

The worms aetin' him out of the ground won't give two fücks about toxicity either. Alternative remedies are find for crap like bloat or smelly farts that kind of stuff but medicine, western, peer reviewed medicine took the best and most potent of these therapies and made them work. Any ways far too many cranks in the AT game preyimg on the vulnerabilities of ill people.

Regards the OP's friend, you are best to stay quiet. It is a family issue and unfortunately none of your business. Just be there for her when there are tough times in the future.

Giselle

Crosáidí wrote: »

It's not unimformed, there is a Dr. in Italy that
believes he can cure it with Baking Soda

Just because he believes it doesn't make it true.

doctor evil

dvpower wrote: »

Homeopathy != Herbal medicine.

Homeopathy is pure hogwash mind.

Thread is about alternative medicines, should have clarified the last bit. It was meant to illustrate the daftness of AM.

dvpower

Crosáidí wrote: »

It's not unimformed, there is a Dr. in Italy that believes he can cure it with Baking Soda

No doubt he believes it. Lots of people 'believe' lots of stuff.

desertcircus

Strictly speaking, there's nothing stopping a seriously ill person from trying both traditional Western treatments and alternative "medicine" at the same time. There's also nothing stopping a seriously ill person from combining Western-style allopathic medicine and prayer to He-Man, Holder Of The Power Of Grayskull for all the good it might do.

People who profit from alternative "medicine" are either liars and con artists, or delusional lunatics. Either way, there's no way in hell they should be allowed to try to flog their snake oil to desperate people in appalling circumstances. Seriously. Anyone found to be selling a "treatment" to someone with a serious illness is by definition either scum or mad, and the only question after that is whether they deserve a cell with brick walls or padded ones.

dar4

Giselle wrote: »

Just because he believes it doesn't make it true.

true story my grandfather drank and smoked every day of his life washed his teeth with sut from the chinmey and baking soda eat fresh veg and kept fit he dyed at 94 and i might add didnt go the docter much

Krusader

Giselle wrote: »

Just because he believes it doesn't make it true.

Well Daw

Krusader

dar4 wrote: »

true story my grandfather drank and smoked every day of his life washed his teeth with sut from the chinmey and baking soda eat fresh veg and kept fit he dyed at 94 and i might add didnt go the docter much

Baking Soda is a great cure for a hangover, it's actually one of the ingredients in Alka Selzer

desertcircus

easyeason3 wrote: »

So can he not use medical & alternative treatments at the same time to optimise his chances?

It doesn't optimise anything. If it's not already medicine, then it falls into one of two categories.

1. We don't know if it's good or bad for this illness. Probably a thoroughly dangerous idea to take a patient already undergoing serious treatment and just feed them something random, to be honest - the effects are as likely to be bad as good.

2. We've tested it, and it's actively bad. This one is a massive no-no.

You can only optimise by adding a treatment if that treatment is shown to work better than placebo in a randomised double-blind trial. If it's not, you could well be making things worse, which is definitely not optimising anything.

easyeason3

Orando Broom wrote: »

The worms aetin' him out of the ground won't give two fücks about toxicity either. Alternative remedies are find for crap like bloat or smelly farts that kind of stuff but medicine, western, peer reviewed medicine took the best and most potent of these therapies and made them work. Any ways far too many cranks in the AT game preyimg on the vulnerabilities of ill people.

Regards the OP's friend, you are best to stay quiet. It is a family issue and unfortunately none of your business. Just be there for her when there are tough times in the future.

I agree with that statement but there is something in AT. I have had family & friends going to what I would describe as quacks - idiots that think they know what they are doing & somehow manage to convince others that they are good at what they do.

One friend I have has gone to a man who is considered a healer. Whatever he does seems to work. She is using medical treatment along with the healer & hasn't looked back. Her health is the best it has been in a long time.

So yes you are right that there are con artists out there waiting to make money but there is a few who have a natural gift. There is something in AT if you meet the right person but it certainly isn't the be all & end all of a serious medical condition. AT can compliment medical treatment to benefit the patient.

dvpower

tony 2 tone wrote: »

Also have a look at "Trick or Treatment" by Simon Singh and Edzard Ernst, goes over various alternative treatments and shows if they are worth while or not.

That's a good book. It looks at various herbal treatments and the various clinical trials that have been done on them. Some have some evidence to back them (but iirc those that do have a modern medical alternative that have more and better evidence)

Biologic

Crosáidí wrote: »

It's not unimformed, there is a Dr. in Italy that believes he can cure it with Baking Soda

Ah, when you put it like that it's clear you know what you're talking about.

Giselle

dar4 wrote: »

true story my grandfather drank and smoked every day of his life washed his teeth with sut from the chinmey and baking soda eat fresh veg and kept fit he dyed at 94 and i might add didnt go the docter much

Right.

Not really seeing your point here.:)

El Weirdo

easyeason3 wrote: »

One friend I have has gone to a man who is considered a healer. Whatever he does seems to work. She is using medical treatment along with the healer & hasn't looked back. Her health is the best it has been in a long time.

Your anecdote is not evidence that it works.

easyeason3

desertcircus wrote: »

It doesn't optimise anything. If it's not already medicine, then it falls into one of two categories.

1. We don't know if it's good or bad for this illness. Probably a thoroughly dangerous idea to take a patient already undergoing serious treatment and just feed them something random, to be honest - the effects are as likely to be bad as good.

2. We've tested it, and it's actively bad. This one is a massive no-no.

You can only optimise by adding a treatment if that treatment is shown to work better than placebo in a randomised double-blind trial. If it's not, you could well be making things worse, which is definitely not optimising anything.

So acupuncture, meditation, natural supplements & changing a persons diet can be bad for an illness?
I know people who have no illness but do the above in order to gain more energy, feel healthier & feel more relaxed. None of the above would hinder medical treatment as far as I know.

Bloody Nipples

true-or-false wrote: »

Non AH response: Many, if not most traditional herbal remedies do in fact have viability as a solution or aid to medical problems. Most medicines were discovered in plants. The reason a doctor will not hand out the plant is because synthesising the active chemicals in a lab is more economical and easier to regulate in terms of dosage, administration etc. In other words, it's safer. While I would always go to the doctor for serious health problems, I do use herbal remedies (mainly teas, because I like drinking them anyway) to help stuff like sleep, energy levels, digestion. Stuff that I figure what the hell.

Your friend isn't being unwise by seeking herbal remedies, but she is being unwise to seek them not only in favour of but instead of conventional western medicine. Her actions are probably dangerous to her health. But it's her choice and it could well turn out that she's a lot smarter than any of us.

AH response: em... something about blasting with piss? I hear it's good for the skin...

True as far as it goes but tablets can contain far higher quantities of medicinal compounds than are found in a single plant, like a single Vit C tablet contains the same Vitamin C conc. of 20 oranges. While it is her friends choice, Dara O'Briain's point still stands that if it works the doc is going to get his hands on it. Doctors have access to a far wider range of medicines and potential medicines than any alternative practitioner and have the efforts of thousands of researchers behind them, in microbiology, biochemistry, neuroscience, human physiology and other areas of biomedical research churning out info on those treatments already available and actively looking for new ones.

Any potential treatments one of these quacks has will, in all likelihood, have been studied by someone with actual scientific expertise on it and it will have been accepted or discarded based on its merits as medical treatment.

eilo1

doctor evil wrote: »

OP do you think the daughter is pushing these ideas on him or is he in some kind of denial? Elder abuse can come in many forms...

Ah you see its complicated, he has some pre-cancerous cells a year ago. She encouraged him to take on an organic "healthy" diet and some herbs. He lost lots of weight and on reassessment 1 year later all cells where gone. Until he had some pain and they thought he might have gall stones. The family are fortunate to have health insurance and he went in for an investigation and the cancer was found.

Im a bit confused as to where his motivation comes from. I assume it is a combination of media fear mongering, a lack of acceptance of his situation and the blind faith he has in alternative therapy.

He cannot do both therapies at once as he needs to travel to Germany to start the alternative one. The German treatment lasts for 5 weeks.

Paparazzo

dar4 wrote: »

jim stynes ? is still alive why?

Chemotherapy and surgery

dvpower

Crosáidí wrote: »

Baking Soda is a great cure for a hangover, it's actually one of the ingredients in Alka Selzer

It has a number of medical uses. Curing cancer isn't one of them.

desertcircus

easyeason3 wrote: »

One friend I have has gone to a man who is considered a healer. Whatever he does seems to work. She is using medical treatment along with the healer & hasn't looked back. Her health is the best it has been in a long time.

The mind boggles. God forbid we might credit her recovery to the stuff she's using that's been tested in controlled circumstances and been shown to have exactly the effect she's now experiencing. Clearly it's the crank/fraudster with the fabulous line in bollockology that made her better, not the TESTED BLOODY REGIME OF TREATMENT THAT'S SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO MAKE HER BETTER.

I mean, really. She's on Treatment A, which has been tested, examined, and found to be good at treating what's wrong with her; and Treatment B, which is ten minutes of chanting and moving hands around while an incense stick burns in the background. And you're crediting Treatment B? You might as well credit her reading a new magazine for it.

AnonoBoy

Giselle wrote: »

Right.

Not really seeing your point here.:)

Isn't it obvious? Eating and drinking every day ensures you will live to 94.

I'd imagine doing drugs too merely increases your longevity.

Aishae

i tried acupuncture for a while there - seemed to work on the leg pain for a bit but it was short lived. i had weekly treatments for a year but the effect got smaller as time went on. but id give it a go again - maybe for something else though, hurt like a b*tch getting pins in the lower back. but when i went they always tried to sell me herbal pills and teas for pain - well i gave them a lash. by then i was already on pain medication to manage pain (from my GP) i told em this but the pain meds only took the edge off. well the herbal stuff made no diff at all. they did cost something like 40 for 2 weeks worth. i said i wasnt interested after that...

it seems with things like acupuncture, acupressure etc. they work for some people. but i wouldnt rely on the herbal stuff for serious complaints.
might take it in conjunction with western treatments.

i would never ever delay a western treatment - for an unproven alternative treatment when time is of the essence - to do so seems mad... or maybe just denial. is there any reason to delay western treatment that will most likely work - for what might amount to a quack treatment?!

easyeason3

El Weirdo wrote: »

Your anecdote is not evidence that it works.

It works for her & is the difference of taking a variety of much stronger drugs. So to me that works.

I would have always been a complete sceptic, & I still am. But whatever it is that he does seems to help her. I can't explain it really & I know that comes across as contributing her improving to his quackery but it works for her.

Bloody Nipples

easyeason3 wrote: »

It works for her & is the difference of taking a variety of much stronger drugs. So to me that works.

I would have always been a complete sceptic, & I still am. But whatever it is that he does seems to help her. I can't explain it really & I know that comes across as contributing her improving to his quackery but it works for her.

You mentioned she's undergoing medical treatment for her illness as well, why would you not credit that? It strikes me as far more realistic that that's what's making her better, though I admit you've got a fuller picture of it than me.

dar4

Giselle wrote: »

Right.

Not really seeing your point here.:)

if often thought about this his diet was fresh veg ranicid bacon unpasturised milk bottles of stout and tobbaca and as i said washed his teeth with sut and baking soda the only thing i can think of is he lived in a world that wasnt soaked in chemicals?

desertcircus

Yes. Sticking needles into random points of the body can be harmful. Taking supplements produced by an unregulated industry with no guarantee that the ingredients are as described can be harmful. Changing a person's diet can be disastrous without a concrete knowledge of what they may need more or less of. Consuming unknown quantities of specific minerals and vitamins without considering the impact on the body can be harmful. Listening to the people who produce those supplements - Gillian McKeith, Patrick Holford, the repulsive Mathias Rath - can be harmful.

dar4

Paparazzo wrote: »

Chemotherapy and surgery

hav u watch d his documentirty ?

AnonoBoy

Of course anything that will help a person's outlook improve is not going to hurt.

But relying solely on this sh*te to cure you when you have something like cancer.... well that's just going to end up with you being dead sooner than you had to be.

OutlawPete

Some alternative therapies are beneficial and some are not. You'll always get the "science" heads slating stuff and I see the book Bad Science has been recommend, surprise surprise (it's become almost a mantra at this stage). Herbal medicine cures many disorders and ailments that mainstream medicine has failed to. Anyone that says anything else, is talking out of their bottoms.

The cry will usually go something along the lines of: "The plural of anecdotes is not data" or some other such pompous tripe.

Sean Boylan is a close friend of my family and I can assure that he (and his father before him) have been helping people for many years to recover and heal from a whole range of illnesses.He has worked alongside oncologists and many other different specialists over the years and indeed had many consultants who he in fact treated, many times they referred patients of theirs onto Sean.

The guy was curing people with crippling stomach ulcers for years before the medical profession discovered that it was the H Pylori bug that was the causing them. People that were just dismissed as suffering from stress and referring on to psychiatrists. Of course there are charlatans out there ripping people off and homoeopathy is a joke as far as I'm concerned but to dismiss ALL forms of alternative medicine as all being quackery is in itself quackery.

easyeason3

desertcircus wrote: »

The mind boggles. God forbid we might credit her recovery to the stuff she's using that's been tested in controlled circumstances and been shown to have exactly the effect she's now experiencing. Clearly it's the crank/fraudster with the fabulous line in bollockology that made her better, not the TESTED BLOODY REGIME OF TREATMENT THAT'S SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO MAKE HER BETTER.

I mean, really. She's on Treatment A, which has been tested, examined, and found to be good at treating what's wrong with her; and Treatment B, which is ten minutes of chanting and moving hands around while an incense stick burns in the background. And you're crediting Treatment B? You might as well credit her reading a new magazine for it.

You mind boggles? My mind does fcuking backflips when I think of it.
I usually don't believe in quacks. And even now I still question what he does but whatever it is it works whether I believe in it or not. By the way it's not a money racket for him, apparently it's just something he does. Now when I first heard this alarm bells rang because I was waiting for her to be tapped for money at some stage. Three years later & he's doing whatever it is he's doing & it's working.

I never said her success was down to him entirely. However I do think that medical & alternative therapies can work hand in hand.