Placebo fraud

Hookah

Anyone for a placebo surgery?

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,990267,00.html

I had the dilemma of meeting a friend on his way to the hospital for arthroscopic knee surgery, yesterday, which I know has the same effectiveness as a placebo surgery, and not knowing whether to tell him or not.

http://www.naturopathydigest.com/important_research/general_health/healing/02.php

clever_name

This really makes very little sense, you say

33 wrote: »

No doctors and nurses do a brilliant job, they do cure people,

So they cure people by giving them drugs they do not need

33 wrote: »

but mainly treat them, with drugs, some are necessary, most are not.

Which is it? they cure people by giving them drugs or they give people drugs they do not need?

33 wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Breuning#Health_history_.26_Habits

Walter attributes much of his longevity to his diet.
Walter takes a baby asprin daily, besides that he takes no other medication.

Thats great for Walter, the same man who was treated for cancer (in a hospital I guess) the same man who was recently hospitalised for an unspecified illness. It looks like he believes in conventional medicine.

I would be very interested in a reply to the questions I asked, in particular the following;

Please let us know the natural cures and treatments (and how they compare to medical treatment) for the following;

cataracts, appendicitis, ulcers, gallstones, renal failure, septicemia, heart failure, severe burns, brain herniation & lymphoma.

And

If as you say "the majority of medicine is a fraud" and "natural is always better" then why are people who forsake "natural" treatment for "conventional" treatment living longer than at any time in history?

Surely if you were correct most people would be dying younger?

33

clever_name wrote: »

This really makes very little sense, you say

So they cure people by giving them drugs they do not need


Which is it? they cure people by giving them drugs or they give people drugs they do not need?



Thats great for Walter, the same man who was treated for cancer (in a hospital I guess) the same man who was recently hospitalised for an unspecified illness. It looks like he believes in conventional medicine.

I would be very interested in a reply to the questions I asked, in particular the following;

Please let us know the natural cures and treatments (and how they compare to medical treatment) for the following;

cataracts, appendicitis, ulcers, gallstones, renal failure, septicemia, heart failure, severe burns, brain herniation & lymphoma.

And

If as you say "the majority of medicine is a fraud" and "natural is always better" then why are people who forsake "natural" treatment for "conventional" treatment living longer than at any time in history?

Surely if you were correct most people would be dying younger?

cataracts

appendicitis

ulcers

gallstones

renal failure

septicemia

heart failure

severe burns

brain herniation its not exactly a perfected art in medicine may require medication http://www.medicinenet.com/brain_hemorrhage/page3.htm

lymphoma

All medicine is not bad, all doctors are not evil, but some medicine is unnecessary and pushed on people.
A healthy body with plenty of vitamins and good things nature provides and always has will mostly remain healthy.

Drug companies push drugs, foolish or greedy doctors prescribe certain products at the first mention of a simple problem, rarely will you leave a doctors with only words of rest or exercise, when either would be all thats required, he may give valium to help relax or stimulant to help you exercise.

There is too much money involved in medicine to let go.

Doctors don't tell patients the truth about the treatments they'd use themselves.

King Mob

33 wrote: »

appendicitis

renal failure

severe burns

Jesus, I hope no one is stupid enough to take this **** seriously.

Whoever wrote this crap should be arrested for reckless endangerment and the text should be replaced with: "Stop looking for medical advice on the internet and go to a doctor you ****ing idiot".

So 33, how do you know any of these treatments are actually effective?

Monty Burnz

33 wrote: »

Doctors don't tell patients the truth about the treatments they'd use themselves.

33 - you haven't really addressed the issue of the agenda of the website that you are linking to there, and the 'cures' that they are advertising, and the books that the site owner writes and sells.

They also have a serious profit motive - but their 'cures' are NOT tested and are not subject to the scientific method.

So you have:

option A: Profit motive + scrutiny and science

or

option B: Profit motive + no scrutiny or science

I know who I am going to trust. That does not mean, of course, that all 'alternative' medicine is bull**** - but the stuff that works will be absorbed into conventional medicine (and how it works will eventually be understood), and the rest will stay 'alternative'.

Monty Burnz

King Mob wrote: »

Jesus, I hope no one is stupid enough to take this **** seriously.

Whoever wrote this crap should be arrested for reckless endangerment and the text should be replaced with: "Stop looking for medical advice on the internet and go to a doctor you ****ing idiot".

Don't be so harsh - they do recommend you see a real doctor if your burns are serious:

[SIZE=-1]*IMPORTANT* Do not attempt to treat a third degree burn yourself these types of injury are life threatening and they require professional attention. Natural remedies can help after hospitalization to prevent infection and boost immune system defenses. [/SIZE]

33

King Mob wrote: »

Jesus, I hope no one is stupid enough to take this **** seriously.

Whoever wrote this crap should be arrested for reckless endangerment and the text should be replaced with: "Stop looking for medical advice on the internet and go to a doctor you ****ing idiot".

So 33, how do you know any of these treatments are actually effective?

You could try this

http://www.rexonomy.com/post/DIY-Appendix-Removal/5745184

33

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Don't be so harsh - they do recommend you see a real doctor if your burns are serious:

All medicine is not bad, all doctors are not evil, but some medicine is unnecessary and pushed on people.

from a couple of posts back.

King Mob

33 wrote: »

You could try this

http://www.rexonomy.com/post/DIY-Appendix-Removal/5745184

Looks to be as clever a decision as any of the other "treatments" you posted.

So since you ignored the question, can I assume you don't think any of those are effective?

33

I was once dating a person in a senior position in the lab in wyeth, newbridge, kildare, one night we were drunk and I asked her about efexor xl, I was after been presibed efexor xl from a doctor a few months before that and I only realised then that she worked for the company who made them, and I was feeling pretty weird from them, shudders, jolts, feeling like I was looking out of somebody elses head, so I mentioned it to her and she said something I can only remember as weird and trivial, then it was almost like she realised she had said something she shouldn't have and blocked up about it, refusing to talk about it, mentioning something about her job, then refusing to answer my calls, bye bye.

I decided to just stop taking them, it was hell for weeks, I found a thread here and post 7 would be quite similar to what I experienced, the doctor never mentioned the side effects to me, he had the efexor notepad and pen and presribed them for basically stress, when they finally came out of my system I had felt suicidal, depressed, hysteric, mental, during the process of ridding my body of this questionable medicine.
The same doctor was prescribing it to other people I knew for a wide variety of syptoms, all after a 5 minute chat and a diagnosis of depression, anybody I have spoken to about it cannot stop it now, and the doctor just keeps prescribing it, this is years later now, people who only felt down temporarily are now addicted to this useless zombie making medicine.

heres the thread
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055258623


http://www.imt.ie/mims/06-new-clinical-evidence/2008/02/efexor-xl-approved-for-the-treatment-of-panic-disorder.html

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/medicines/100000898.html

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/opinions/19018/

I've been on Effexor for close to 13 YEARS now. Doses ranging from 75 mg/day to 300. Coming off this stuff is a nightmare. Whoever came up with the description of brain "zaps" hit it on the head. Between the zaps, nausea & diarrhea, working has been almost impossible - I'm a paramedic

clever_name

33 wrote: »

cataracts

appendicitis

ulcers

gallstones

renal failure

septicemia

heart failure

severe burns

brain herniation its not exactly a perfected art in medicine may require medication http://www.medicinenet.com/brain_hemorrhage/page3.htm

lymphoma

Do you really think that people waiting on a new kidney could drink 3 glasses of cranberry juice each day, have an enema and take plenty of herbs and forget about the transplant? I guess not as you also linked to a cemetery as the natural treatment for something else.

Your recent post

33 wrote: »

but some medicine is unnecessary and pushed on people.

You earlier stated

33 wrote: »

But the majority of medicine is a fraud and totally unnecessary,

So have you changed your mind?


As for this

33 wrote: »

all doctors are not evil, but some medicine is unnecessary and pushed on people.

Drug companies push drugs, foolish or greedy doctors prescribe certain products at the first mention of a simple problem

So doctors are not evil, they are just part of a massive fraud and act as drug pushers.

You mention foolish doctors, as someone else posted, these same doctors studied for years to become doctors but are too stupid to understand what you worked out from reading something on the internet?


Lastly

33 wrote: »

A healthy body with plenty of vitamins and good things nature provides and always has will mostly remain healthy.

So if you are healthy to begin with you will stay mostly healthy.

How about seeking medical help and being fully healthy?

Monty Burnz

33 wrote: »

I was once dating a person in a senior position in the lab in wyeth, newbridge, kildare, one night we were drunk and I asked her about efexor xl, I was after been presibed efexor xl from a doctor a few months before that and I only realised then that she worked for the company who made them, and I was feeling pretty weird from them, shudders, jolts, feeling like I was looking out of somebody elses head, so I mentioned it to her and she said something I can only remember as weird and trivial, then it was almost like she realised she had said something she shouldn't have and blocked up about it, refusing to talk about it, mentioning something about her job, then refusing to answer my calls, bye bye.

33, Do you not consider it possible that she broke up with you because she had a problem with seeing someone who was suffering from depression? Not a very nice attitude, I would say, but certainly one that does exist? It certainly seems more likely than the notion that there was some sort of conspiracy going on that a low-level lab worker in Wyeth would be in on.

Saila

there is a time and a place for medicine and treatments, I dont think anyone is suggesting all medicine is bad, but people going to doctors want quick fixes, they dont want to hear eat better or exercise when they cant so pills are a quick fix its the modern way, there is a time and a place yes but the problem is the overuse and the lack of understanding out there that alot of drugs are only marginally better than placebo anyway. The amount of people on preventative medicine is unreal.

Create the fear ---> give them something to alleviate the fear
create your own market!

Medicine works on the principle that if you are improving/ holding at bay whatever condition you may have then its the medication working
its just stats though and stats in isolation mean nothing, they are used to back up your selling agenda usually.

Monty Burnz

Saila wrote: »

there is a time and a place for medicine and treatments, I dont think anyone is suggesting all medicine is bad, but people going to doctors want quick fixes, they dont want to hear eat better or exercise when they cant so pills are a quick fix its the modern way, there is a time and a place yes but the problem is the overuse and the lack of understanding out there that alot of drugs are only marginally better than placebo anyway. The amount of people on preventative medicine is unreal.

Good points. And the point made in the article quoted earlier about many drugs offering no benefits to those who use them is that depending on your genetics or various other factors, a drug that cures/treats a disease in person A might not work at all on person B, yet it will be prescribed for both of them as you don't know a priori whether or not it will work on a given person, only that it works in (say) 30% of cases.

33

Monty Burnz wrote: »

33, Do you not consider it possible that she broke up with you because she had a problem with seeing someone who was suffering from depression? Not a very nice attitude, I would say, but certainly one that does exist? It certainly seems more likely than the notion that there was some sort of conspiracy going on that a low-level lab worker in Wyeth would be in on.

Yes of course it is quite possible, or possibly one of the other side affects of this drug, sexual performance of lack of, or one of the others, sudden fits of rage, or the jolts in the brain when not taken or the elevated tendancy towards suicidal thoughts.

Read some of the links I posted, this drug is still being pushed to people who simply need something to relieve stress.
I wasn't depressed or suicidal, I was feeling low from recent events and something to ease my mind was all I sought, post#7 in the link I also provided was only looking for xanax or valium for a buzz, he ended up on efexxor xl, and felt the power of it, I sometimes still get the very occasional jolt or shock as its described.
As I said I just stopped cold turkey, it was hell, but I was determined not to take it to relieve the symptoms, I wasn't told anything about its possible and very realistic affects by the doctor who prescribed it, it took weeks of mental torture to rid myself of this stuff.

I found exercise, relaxation, meditation and the sunshine vitamin D to do wonders, 100% more effective is an understatement.
I went to the doctor for a quick fix to get me over a troubling period that a little time would heal anyway, he gave me trouble multiplied by 1000.


http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/medicines/100000898.html

Following a review of data from clinical trials of venlafaxine in children under 18 years of age, the Committee on Safety of Medicines has concluded that venlafaxine is ineffective for treating depressive illness in this age group and actually increases the risk of harmful outcomes such as self-harm and potentially suicidal behaviour. Venlafaxine is not licensed for any use in children aged under 18 years and should not be used to treat depressive illness in this age group. It is not recommended for other uses in this age group as its safety and efficacy have not been established.



Just to add, this drug can and does cause personality change, I am still undecided on the overall lenght and severity of it after finishing it, but it does, and this is one drug I have experience with so its all first hand information here.

Monty Burnz

33 wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Breuning#Health_history_.26_Habits

Walter attributes much of his longevity to his diet.
Walter takes a baby asprin daily, besides that he takes no other medication.

Walter is dead.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0415/breuningw.html

So that's the anti-medication theory blown out of the water, as he passed away aged a mere 114.

whiteonion

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Walter is dead.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0415/breuningw.html

So that's the anti-medication theory blown out of the water, as he passed away aged a mere 114.

According to your reasoning then we shouldn't be anti-alcohol or anti-smoking because after all Winston Churchill smoked cigars and he was a heavy drinker, yet he lived to become 90.

Monty Burnz

whiteonion wrote: »

According to your reasoning then we shouldn't be anti-alcohol or anti-smoking because after all Winston Churchill smoked cigars and he was a heavy drinker, yet he lived to become 90.

You may have missed the irony in my post.