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Placebo fraud

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    #32
    Talk E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 461 ✭✭Talk E


    clever_name wrote: »
    A few points about that link, first it does not state that medicine does not work in general but that different people respond to different medicines better.

    Yeah, it's the patients who are broken, not the prescription.
    clever_name wrote: »
    also consider that Dr. Roses setup a company to do genetic testing of patients to see what drug would be most effective and wanted the rest of the medical community to join him, this would make a lot of money for his company, possibly a new conspiracy theory for you.

    Consider it considered. :rolleyes:

    A few points and a consideration all in one, great.


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    #33
    Talk E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 461 ✭✭Talk E


    Pharmaceutical drugs causing spike in diseases they supposedly treat

    (NaturalNews) A recent U.S. News & World Report piece highlights new studies that point to serious problems down the road for the over-medicated population. According to reports, more than 60 percent of American adults now take at least one drug every day for a chronic health problem, and more than half of seniors take at least three medications every day. But the end result is more diseases like diabetes, heart disease, obesity, arthritis and cancer.

    While some disease rates have declined over the years, many others have rapidly increased in their place, even though a lot more people take pharmaceutical drugs than they used to. The cause, say many, is the drugs themselves. And experts fear that millions of people are being over-diagnosed and over-medicated due to aggressive, uncontrolled marketing by drug companies, which is exacerbating the problem even more.

    Most of the approved drugs on the market today are backed by studies very limited in scope. Besides having been manipulated to show favorable results, most studies evaluate the effects of drugs on a very limited cross-section of people with isolated illness symptoms, and for a very short period of time. Little, if any, consideration is given to the long-term effects of such drugs on a wide spectrum of diverse people.

    Another major problem is off-label prescription practices in which doctors prescribe drugs for conditions the drugs were not meant to treat. And drug companies themselves play a major role in making this happen by literally paying doctors to recommend certain drugs to their patients, even if the drugs are unnecessary. A great example of this was identified in a government report back in March that found that 22 percent of Massachusetts nursing home residents had been prescribed antipsychotic medications for conditions they did not have.

    Some experts are calling on regulatory reform to end the cozy relationship between agencies like the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and drug companies, which many now recognize as a primary cause of the problem.
    http://www.naturalnews.com/032016_pharmas_disease.html
    Sources for this story include:
    http://health.usnews.com/health-news/managing-your-healthcare/diabetes/articles/2010/10/07/overmedication-are-americans-taking-too-many-drugs.html


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    #34
    Talk E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 461 ✭✭Talk E


    clever_name wrote: »
    Have you ever broken a bone? If so please answer the following

    How was it splinting it yourself? unless it was a compound fracture you might have been wrong about it being broken, hard to tell without an x-ray sometimes, so how did you confirm the break?

    have you ever had a tooth removed? if so please answer the following

    Did it hurt much without the anesthetic? was there any infection and if so what did you treat it with?

    I am presuming that if any of these things did happen to you that you did not ask anyone involved in conventional medicine for help?

    Do you believe in alternative medicine?

    If so it would be useful if you could give a breakdown of what you fell is conventional vs alternative.

    Some amazing questions there just dying to be answered.

    please answer the following

    What time is it ?

    oh yeah 11:16

    doesn't matter


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    #35
    Donny5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭Donny5


    33 wrote: »
    If you would like me to prove it pm me your email, give me permission to attempt it and open the mail I send you, then do whatever you want on your computer for 15 minutes and then I will show you your activity and tell you to format your computer to erase what I just sent you in disguise.

    I'd like you to show me this, please. You can e-mail me at donal@netsoc.com.


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    #36
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Talk E wrote: »
    http://www.naturalnews.com/032016_pharmas_disease.html

    So leaving aside the what the article says, how come you think this site is reliable when it very very clearly has an interest in spreading distrust in mainstream medicine?
    How come this crowd are immune to the same accusations of big pharma?


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    #37
    Talk E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 461 ✭✭Talk E


    King Mob wrote: »
    So leaving aside the what the article says, how come you think this site is reliable when it very very clearly has an interest in spreading distrust in mainstream medicine?
    How come this crowd are immune to the same accusations of big pharma?

    Coz their Natural man


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    #38
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Talk E wrote: »
    Coz their Natural man
    So a serious answer out of the question then?

    You'd think this question was a deep philosophical riddle it's so often left unanswered.


  • Options
    #39
    clever_name
    Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭clever_name


    Talk E wrote: »
    Some amazing questions there just dying to be answered.

    please answer the following

    What time is it ?

    oh yeah 11:16

    doesn't matter

    Why does it not matter?

    I was asking whiteonion some questions based on the quote
    whiteonion wrote: »
    Conventional medicine is all a big fraud.

    As a result I tried to find out if whiteonion had ever used "conventional medicine".

    I think whiteonions useage (or not) of conventional medicne is at the heart of this thread.

    Its not important to you and thats fine but I'm interested and I will allow whiteonion to respond or not.


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    #40
    Talk E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 461 ✭✭Talk E


    I hope it's ok if I answer this.
    clever_name wrote: »
    Have you ever broken a bone? If so please answer the following
    no
    clever_name wrote: »
    How was it splinting it yourself? unless it was a compound fracture you might have been wrong about it being broken, hard to tell without an x-ray sometimes, so how did you confirm the break?
    no
    clever_name wrote: »
    have you ever had a tooth removed? if so please answer the following

    no
    clever_name wrote: »
    Did it hurt much without the anesthetic? was there any infection and if so what did you treat it with?
    no
    clever_name wrote: »
    I am presuming that if any of these things did happen to you that you did not ask anyone involved in conventional medicine for help?
    no
    clever_name wrote: »
    Do you believe in alternative medicine?
    no
    clever_name wrote: »
    If so it would be useful if you could give a breakdown of what you fell is conventional vs alternative.
    and no.


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    #41
    Talk E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 461 ✭✭Talk E


    King Mob wrote: »
    So a serious answer out of the question then?

    You'd think this question was a deep philosophical riddle it's so often left unanswered.

    Ok i'll go along with this for a minute..
    So leaving aside the what the article says, how come you think this site is reliable when it very very clearly has an interest in spreading distrust in mainstream medicine?
    How come this crowd are immune to the same accusations of big pharma?
    You are suggesting that the website that is warning us of the dangers associated with big pharma and their products are actually benafitting from the same agenda as big pharma ?

    Now who's the conspiracy theorist ?

    I think it's clear to see what's going on here.....


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    #42
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Talk E wrote: »
    Ok i'll go along with this for a minute..

    You are suggesting that the website that is warning us of the dangers associated with big pharma and their products are actually benafitting from the same agenda as big pharma ?

    Now who's the conspiracy theorist ?

    I think it's clear to see what's going on here.....
    Still not an answer to the question.

    I'm suggesting that they are spreading fear and uncertainty which causes people to loose confidence in mainstream medicine, and that they are also selling their own products as an alternative to mainstream medicine.
    I doubt you'll dispute these facts.

    Now given that this clearly shows they would have a reason to make up or distort information, just as you believe that Big Pharma does, aren't they vulnerable to the same corruption as mainstream doctors thus untrustworthy?
    If not, why not?


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    #43
    Talk E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 461 ✭✭Talk E


    King Mob wrote: »
    Still not an answer to the question.
    King Mob wrote: »
    I'm suggesting that they are spreading fear and uncertainty which causes people to loose confidence in mainstream medicine, and that they are also selling their own products as an alternative to mainstream medicine.
    I doubt you'll dispute these facts.

    If it werent for these damned sites we'd all love big pharma !!

    Have you listened to yourself ?

    Those words, are the words of a fanatic.

    King Mob wrote: »
    Now given that this clearly shows they would have a reason to make up or distort information, just as you believe that Big Pharma does, aren't they vulnerable to the same corruption as mainstream doctors thus untrustworthy?
    If not, why not?
    If you ! have to make up and distort information at times, dont you think they have the ability to do it too ? Maybe the ones who are really good at it collaborate at it.
    They might be, and most likely are, better than you at it.


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    #44
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    And still haven't answered the question.
    Talk E wrote: »
    If it werent for these damned sites we'd all love big pharma !!
    There's plenty of watchdogs out there on various levels, all of which use actual facts and science. And most importantly, don't sell you anything at the same time.
    Talk E wrote: »
    Have you listened to yourself ?

    These are the words of a fanatic.
    Why? What have I said that's fanatical?
    That they are saying things that shake people's confidence in mainstream medicine?
    That they sell alternatives to conventional medicine on that same site?
    That there might be a conflict of interest because of these facts?
    Talk E wrote: »
    If you ! have to make up and distort information at times, dont you think they have the ability to do it too ? Maybe the ones who are really good at it collaborate at it.
    They might be, and most likely are, better than you at it.
    So anyone can be faking and distorting information however they want.
    Then how do you know exactly that the guys at natural news aren't distorting and faking information?


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    #45
    Talk E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 461 ✭✭Talk E


    King Mob wrote: »
    And still haven't answered the question.
    King Mob wrote: »
    There's plenty of watchdogs out there on various levels, all of which use actual facts and science. And most importantly, don't sell you anything at the same time.

    Facts and science ? sounds all very serious now lol, Facts and science :D
    King Mob wrote: »
    Why? What have I said that's fanatical?
    That they are saying things that shake people's confidence in mainstream medicine?
    That they sell alternatives to conventional medicine on that same site?
    That there might be a conflict of interest because of these facts?

    If you have proof of this conspiracy theory you should start a new thread. Inform and alert the public, it's your duty.
    King Mob wrote: »
    So anyone can be faking and distorting information however they want.
    Then how do you know exactly that the guys at natural news aren't distorting and faking information?
    Take from NN what you will, which is nothing; by the sounds of it.


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    #46
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,229 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Yet again, failing to answer the question.
    Talk E wrote: »
    Facts and science ? sounds all very serious now lol, Facts and science :D
    Yea, novel concepts around here alright.
    Talk E wrote: »
    If you have proof of this conspiracy theory you should start a new thread. Inform and alert the public, it's your duty.
    Now you see I'm just showing how your logic should also apply to these guys. But there's a reason you aren't. This is what I'm trying to figure out.
    Talk E wrote: »
    Take from NN what you will, which is nothing; by the sounds of it.
    And this isn't an answer.
    You seem to have no issue ignoring anything from mainstream medicine because they have something to gain, there should be no difference for this crowd, if you're being consistent that is.

    So how do you know that anything at all is reliable from Natural News?
    Do you believe they give any false or distorted information?


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    #47
    clever_name
    Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭clever_name


    Talk E wrote: »
    I hope it's ok if I answer this.


    no


    no



    no

    no


    no


    no


    and no.


    Answer away but without context its pointless, do you believe, as whiteonion does, that all conventional medicine is a fraud?

    If you do believe its a fraud would you do in the event of a suspected broken bone or problem tooth.

    I am curious about what peoples perception of what conventional medicine is.


  • Options
    #48
    33
    Closed Accounts Posts: 188 ✭✭33


    Donny5 wrote: »
    I'd like you to show me this, please. You can e-mail me at donal@netsoc.com.

    I said pm me it, theres bots sending allsorts to it already open them all, take all the deals and free viagra, then do a scan.

    But actually I shouldn't and wouldn't do it, you can google it and try it out on your self, it's grey area material but a lot more simple than you would think.

    Look at some of the more underground sites, I wont link them, google is your friend, it could be a crime to do what i proposed so I wouldn't do it after a little advice.


  • Options
    #49
    33
    Closed Accounts Posts: 188 ✭✭33


    clever_name wrote: »
    Answer away but without context its pointless, do you believe, as whiteonion does, that all conventional medicine is a fraud?

    If you do believe its a fraud would you do in the event of a suspected broken bone or problem tooth.

    I am curious about what peoples perception of what conventional medicine is.

    What medacine heals bones and solves problem teeth?, a broken bone and a plaster of paris, or if you want to stay away from the conventional a splint and some vine will solve your broken bone and a little pain making sure its a good reconnection of the bone before splinting it.


    Problem teeth, probably a pliers would be the less painful in the longrun, medication is available to kill the pain but not extract the tooth or repair it, good old natural vitamins, minerals, nutrient's would help a speedy recovery from the broken bone, and less crap and better dental hygiene would do beter for your teeth.

    But the majority of medicine is a fraud and totally unnecessary, some has it's benefits of course, but natural is always better, good hygiene and sanitation, vaccines have done a lot more damage than good, but it's covered up, so I wont bother putting in a link, healthy people make bad customer for one of the biggest businesses in the world.

    Don't anybody ask me to prove it, if people want answers to what I just said they can look themselves, I am just expressing my opinion, which I'm entitled to, and you yours.


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    #50
    upandcumming
    Registered Users Posts: 2,715 ✭✭✭upandcumming


    33 wrote: »
    I said pm me it, theres bots sending allsorts to it already open them all, take all the deals and free viagra, then do a scan.

    But actually I shouldn't and wouldn't do it, you can google it and try it out on your self, it's grey area material but a lot more simple than you would think.

    Look at some of the more underground sites, I wont link them, google is your friend, it could be a crime to do what i proposed so I wouldn't do it after a little advice.

    No surprises here...


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    #51
    clever_name
    Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭clever_name


    33 wrote: »
    What medacine heals bones and solves problem teeth?, a broken bone and a plaster of paris, or if you want to stay away from the conventional a splint and some vine will solve your broken bone and a little pain making sure its a good reconnection of the bone before splinting it.

    And you would do all this yourself?, as you stated
    33 wrote: »

    But the majority of medicine is a fraud and totally unnecessary

    So doctors spend almost all their time dealing in the unnecessary, there is no way you would trust them if thats the case, right?
    33 wrote: »
    Problem teeth, probably a pliers would be the less painful in the longrun

    Try it and let us know how it goes, joking, pulling your own teeth can be pretty dangerous if you mess it up.
    33 wrote: »

    But the majority of medicine is a fraud and totally unnecessary, some has it's benefits of course, but natural is always better

    So all of the doctors are in on this scam?, I mean they would have to be, if none of their patients get better as a result of the treatment they provide they must know that its all a sham.

    Please let us know the natural cures and treatments (and how they compare to medical treatment) for the following;

    cataracts, appendicitis, ulcers, gallstones, renal failure, septicemia, heart failure, severe burns, brain herniation & lymphoma.
    33 wrote: »
    healthy people make bad customer for one of the biggest businesses in the world.

    Dead people are the worst customers for any business.


    Lastly please answer the following questions,

    If as you say "the majority of medicine is a fraud" and "natural is always better" then why are people who forsake "natural" treatment for "conventional" treatment living longer than at any time in history?

    Surely if you were correct most people would be dying younger?


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    #52
    gibraltar
    Registered Users Posts: 330 ✭✭gibraltar


    33 I will assume based on your posts that you have never worked or studied in any area of healthcare so allow me to point some things out to you. In the highly unlikley event that this assumption is wrong please correct me.
    33 wrote: »
    But the majority of medicine is a fraud and totally unnecessary, some has it's benefits of course, but natural is always better

    First, you say that most medicine is a fraud, this is based on reading something on the internet?

    So please tell me something about all the doctors, nurses, anaesthetists, radiographers, lab techs and other healthcare professionals who have studied for many years and continue to work within various fields of medicine everyday - is it that they are too stupid to understand that medicine is a fraud or are they just too greedy to care?

    I mean several years of study, exams passed, day to day real world experience and constant training and recertification... well what would they know? afterall you read it on the internet so it must be true.

    Secondly, your point that
    33 wrote: »
    But the majority of medicine is a fraud and totally unnecessary, some has it's benefits of course, but natural is always better,

    One friend describes this way of thinking best as "a pile of hippie sh1te".

    Take the following on board,

    Its not natural to survive on dialysis.
    Its not natural to live with another person's liver in your body.
    Its not natural to recover from a brain tumor.
    Its not natural to have a severed body part successfully reattached.

    These and many more things an entirely unnatural but are all possible thanks to modern medicine and also thanks to the ongoing care provided by people who you think are not smart enough to know that what they do helps people through some of the worst parts of their lives.

    Ignorance is excusable, willful ignorance is not.


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    #53
    Donny5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭Donny5


    33 wrote: »
    I said pm me it, theres bots sending allsorts to it already open them all, take all the deals and free viagra, then do a scan.

    But actually I shouldn't and wouldn't do it, you can google it and try it out on your self, it's grey area material but a lot more simple than you would think.

    Look at some of the more underground sites, I wont link them, google is your friend, it could be a crime to do what i proposed so I wouldn't do it after a little advice.

    Right, bull**** as I though.


  • Options
    #54
    digme
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,584 ✭✭✭digme


    whiteonion wrote: »
    http://www.annals.org/content/153/8/532.abstract
    You hear frequently about "medical research" being done where they say pill X performs much better than placebo, but what if all this medical research is just a big fraud?

    In the reports being released they don't have to tell what the actual placebo is. The placebo itself can affect the outcome of the clinical trials.
    http://www.naturalnews.com/030209_placebo_medical_fraud.html
    http://www.annals.org/content/153/8/532.abstract

    Conventional medicine is all a big fraud.
    Looking at conventional medicine it's safe to say nothing has been done really since around the 1940/50's.


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    #55
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    whiteonion wrote: »
    This is not a conspiracy theory it's a fact.
    You're on the wrong board so tbh :D

    This 'conventional medicine is fraud' position you are adopting is plainly ridiculous, but it would make sense if the type of placebo used was identified in studies - as these people have recognised. That's how science progresses I suppose - they spot a flaw and write a paper on it, and everybody learns.


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    #56
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    33 wrote: »
    People underestimate the inbuilt immune system, some drugs do save lives, some make people worse and dependant for the rest of their lives.
    Drugs are over prescribed and pushed on people, and totally over used and over prescribed, such as antibiotics which have created superbugs which are immune to the drugs.
    Just on a point of logic: 'superbugs' is just tabloidese for antibiotic-resistant bacteria. Having a bacterial infection and not having antibiotics ('conventional medicine') is no better than having antibiotics and a antibiotic-resistant infection.


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    #57
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    33 wrote: »
    Just download any free virus scan, install it, you will be shown umpteen viruses that are on your computer, the majority of which were slipstreamed in with the install, and low and behold the only way to rid your computer of these is to buy the full version.
    I recommend Avast or Avira. Don't just click on random links offering to heal your computer, they are there to suck in the IT-illiterate.


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    #58
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Talk E wrote: »
    Ok i'll go along with this for a minute..

    You are suggesting that the website that is warning us of the dangers associated with big pharma and their products are actually benafitting from the same agenda as big pharma ?
    I thought it was fairly obvious that this webite is pushing 'alternative' medicine (i.e. medicine that has either not been proved to work, or has been proved to not work). Check out the guy behind the website (the site the OP linked: http://www.naturalnews.com) - maybe you have bought some of his books? Maybe he sells his books for free? Maybe he sells advertising on his site for free? Maybe those advertising on his site heal for free?

    Looking at the site now, I see links on the side saying 'Worried about radiation? Aroniaberries - nature's healer and protector' (somebody cashing in on the false fears of Natural News readers about the radiation from Fukushima, who could not take iodine tablets I suppose as they are too 'conventional'). I also see someone claiming to be able to allow you to 'Cure almost any cancer from home' for $5.15 per day - nice, cashing in on desperate people. These people have no agenda?

    Or maybe the agenda of this site is blindingly obvious, except to those who pretend not to see it.


  • Options
    #59
    33
    Closed Accounts Posts: 188 ✭✭33


    upandcumming wrote: »
    No surprises here...
    Donny5 wrote: »
    Right, bull**** as I though.
    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    I recommend Avast or Avira. Don't just click on random links offering to heal your computer, they are there to suck in the IT-illiterate.
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/04/12/avast_update_snafu/

    http://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2009/03/10/mystery-symantec-pifts/


    Ok guys first google PIFTS.EXE (the link is to a google search for results only)
    or heres the long version
    http://www.google.ie/search?q=PIFTS.EXE&hl=en&rlz=1T4PRFA_enIE420IE420&prmd=ivns&ei=hlikTb6FFYmDhQfH96jPCQ&start=10&sa=N

    check out "Crypter", theres a UD version and an FUD version, here is an example of crypter, just so as you know, if you google latest FUD software you will find links to more up to date versions of such programs.
    http://www.emoiz.com/ud-crypter-hacking-software-bypass-antivirus-detection-of-keylogger

    This is as far as I'll be taking this, anybody with a little interest can take it further themselves, and try it on themselves, get your best antivirus and put it up against the best FUD, see who wins.


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    #60
    33
    Closed Accounts Posts: 188 ✭✭33


    clever_name wrote: »
    And you would do all this yourself?, as you stated


    So doctors spend almost all their time dealing in the unnecessary, there is no way you would trust them if thats the case, right?



    Try it and let us know how it goes, joking, pulling your own teeth can be pretty dangerous if you mess it up.



    So all of the doctors are in on this scam?, I mean they would have to be, if none of their patients get better as a result of the treatment they provide they must know that its all a sham.

    Please let us know the natural cures and treatments (and how they compare to medical treatment) for the following;

    cataracts, appendicitis, ulcers, gallstones, renal failure, septicemia, heart failure, severe burns, brain herniation & lymphoma.



    Dead people are the worst customers for any business.


    Lastly please answer the following questions,

    If as you say "the majority of medicine is a fraud" and "natural is always better" then why are people who forsake "natural" treatment for "conventional" treatment living longer than at any time in history?

    Surely if you were correct most people would be dying younger?


    No doctors and nurses do a brilliant job, they do cure people, but mainly treat them, with drugs, some are necessary, most are not.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Breuning#Health_history_.26_Habits

    Walter attributes much of his longevity to his diet.
    Walter takes a baby asprin daily, besides that he takes no other medication.


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    #61
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    33 wrote: »
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Breuning#Health_history_.26_Habits

    Walter attributes much of his longevity to his diet.
    Walter takes a baby asprin daily, besides that he takes no other medication.
    But this is a sample size of one. You might talk to another centenarian and they'll tell you that they lived so long because they enjoyed smoking and boozing or whatever - it's totally meaningless in isolation.

    Edit: I looked at the guy who was the oldest man in the world in 2009 (linked at the bottom of the page you linked) and found this:
    Allingham credited "cigarettes, whisky and wild, wild women – and a good sense of humour" for his longevity.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Allingham


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