Is money controlling deerhunting grounds?

steyrprohunter

This should make an interesting conversation lads!1 Just been around to a few farmers getting permission forms signed for the coming deer season. Was told by 2 farmers where Id shot for years that a syndicate from Dublin had offered him €2000 for the land and he couldnt refuse.To make matters worse he withdrew all the locals lads permission. Next landowner had the same bloody story. It seems now that big wallets and new 4x4's are trying to take over everyones land where Im from (part of Wicklow) and its just sickening. These so called hunters are "once in a blue moon deerhunters" with lots of cash and like the idea of "big guns" and fancy clothes and the stereotypical propaganda that is so often associated with deerhunting. The same farmer said I was still welcome to shoot the foxs on his land cos the "deerhunters" told him they've no interest in that shooting! Now isnt that typical! I politely refused his offer with a sweet F*** you!!!:D:mad:(

endasmail

sorry to hear that
fools and their money and all that
come in ,p*iss all over the local lad,disgraceful

poulo6.5

sorry to hear that. i'm sure once a season or two has passed and the lads have there one or two trophy stags shot and nothing else then he will be crying out for some one to shoot all the deer that are getting out of control.

it could be worse though they could shoot it out completely and then move on to the next spot.

i hate to see it turn out like this. lads with plenty of cash pushing out a local genuine hunter:mad:

Mauser 308

steyrprohunter wrote: »

This should make an interesting conversation lads!1 Just been around to a few farmers getting permission forms signed for the coming deer season. Was told by 2 farmers where Id shot for years that a syndicate from Dublin had offered him €2000 for the land and he couldnt refuse.To make matters worse he withdrew all the locals lads permission. Next landowner had the same bloody story. It seems now that big wallets and new 4x4's are trying to take over everyones land where Im from (part of Wicklow) and its just sickening. These so called hunters are "once in a blue moon deerhunters" with lots of cash and like the idea of "big guns" and fancy clothes and the stereotypical propaganda that is so often associated with deerhunting. The same farmer said I was still welcome to shoot the foxs on his land cos the "deerhunters" told him they've no interest in that shooting! Now isnt that typical! I politely refused his offer with a sweet F*** you!!!:D:mad:(

Just wondering how big the farm is? also is it bordering much caoilte forestry? Just thinking to my self but if a group knew that the forrest was a good one and Caoilte were looking for too much money or maybe they had it and lost it in a bid senario, then they may have said Fxxk it, lets offer some money to the farmer with the surrounding land, as that is were the deer will be. In that case he most lightly sold out way too cheep. Guys reading this and another post "who are they" about a similar situation in the south west(though the guys there dont pay, just force/trick their way in) I am very worried about the future of the sport for the ordinary person. Its going to get like the UK where money talks, and sole permissions rule. Caoilte have created this situation of money gets you stalking permissions, it was always going to happen the guys who pay the big money would find a way of tapping into local farmers. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

steyrprohunter

Mauser 308- both farms are joined and next to a coillte letting. They had this letting last year too but from what I heard the deer were scarce in the woods and this is prob why they paid the farmer.They're still taking the lease this year again.Makes you wonder why if it was apparently no good!! Its a minor gliche in my shooting diary but i still have lots of places signed up where I can hunt and lots of invites this year so I suppose I should be thankful to those landowners and the invites Im offered!:D

fallowbuck

Im afraid money is power......

Tackleberrywho

steyrprohunter wrote: »

Mauser 308- both farms are joined and next to a coillte letting. They had this letting last year too but from what I heard the deer were scarce in the woods and this is prob why they paid the farmer.They're still taking the lease this year again.Makes you wonder why if it was apparently no good!! Its a minor gliche in my shooting diary but i still have lots of places signed up where I can hunt and lots of invites this year so I suppose I should be thankful to those landowners and the invites Im offered!:D

Happened in 2 areas I used to casual shoot in Sliabh Blooms. Fella's from Dublin offered €3000 a year to a farmer with 100 acres of poor land. As that was almost what he got from the EU for area aid and REPS he jumped at it.

Sad but true, can't blame a poor farmer with a low income

steyrprohunter

Ok fair enough a poor farmer u might understand but both of these pricks are driving 2010 and 2009 landcruisers so I dont think money is a priority.The deer hunting scene seems to be turning a circle and into a wealthy mans game by all accounts. One example- a well known photographer and stalking man who is currently on 6 leases for fallow and sika approached a number of landowners around our area 3 years ago on his travels and offered money to each of them in return for the solo shooting rights and to withdraw all previous permissions. Thank God he was laughed at otherwise alot of stalkers would have been screwed. Anywhere I hunt the farmer knows im not full of money and they're very content with the leg of deer, box of miller and sweets for kids.

Tackleberrywho

steyrprohunter wrote: »

Ok fair enough a poor farmer u might understand but both of these pricks are driving 2010 and 2009 landcruisers so I dont think money is a priority.The deer hunting scene seems to be turning a circle and into a wealthy mans game by all accounts. One example- a well known photographer and stalking man who is currently on 6 leases for fallow and sika approached a number of landowners around our area 3 years ago on his travels and offered money to each of them in return for the solo shooting rights and to withdraw all previous permissions. Thank God he was laughed at otherwise alot of stalkers would have been screwed. Anywhere I hunt the farmer knows im not full of money and they're very content with the leg of deer, box of miller and sweets for kids.

+1
My permissions appreciate helping move cattle, mending broken wire, or letting them know if it needs more than a bit of a tidy up.

I gave 24 cans of Miller at Christmas for the lads and a nice box of chocs for the ladies (or vise versa)

Most of the farmers are wary of Fella's with D reg Range Rovers coming down and trying to buy them off.

It is true that rich people are trying to take the sport over.
The fact that Coillte leases sky-rocketed in the Celtic Tiger era made approaching Farmers a softer option.

If guys were on a lease in an era they would try chisel up all farmers for shooting in the environs

reddeer1

It's clear that times are changing and that getting free shooting will be a scarcity over the next few years. The fact of the matter is that deer shooting permission costs money all over Europe. I would do the exact same if I was interested in a bit of ground and I had the money. Doesn't mean these fella's are not going to manage the deer in the area properly. I work with farmers on a professional basis and would certainly suggest to them that they lease their land for deer stalking. Things will change once more land owners actually find out that the deer permissions they are giving every year can be worth a few euro.

endasmail

reddeer1 wrote: »

It's clear that times are changing and that getting free shooting will be a scarcity over the next few years. The fact of the matter is that deer shooting permission costs money all over Europe. I would do the exact same if I was interested in a bit of ground and I had the money. Doesn't mean these fella's are not going to manage the deer in the area properly. I work with farmers on a professional basis and would certainly suggest to them that they lease their land for deer stalking. Things will change once more land owners actually find out that the deer permissions they are giving every year can be worth a few euro.

yea?
what about the everyday lad that does it for the love of the sport but hasnt got money coming out his arsehole
id say your all about the money
u should get a job with the government

Mauser 308

reddeer1 wrote: »

It's clear that times are changing and that getting free shooting will be a scarcity over the next few years. The fact of the matter is that deer shooting permission costs money all over Europe. I would do the exact same if I was interested in a bit of ground and I had the money. Doesn't mean these fella's are not going to manage the deer in the area properly. I work with farmers on a professional basis and would certainly suggest to them that they lease their land for deer stalking. Things will change once more land owners actually find out that the deer permissions they are giving every year can be worth a few euro.

But that is a downward spiral, the guys who offered 2k this year for the land, what happens if another group offer 4k next year etc, It will get out of control very quickly. And I dont care what anyone says, people have no interest or incentive to manage deer on a 1 to 5 year lease, especially on the last few years. I would be prity sure lads who suspect they might not retain a lease do their damdest to get as many animals as they can in the last 2 years. Also in the case beind discussed wait and see, if them guys dont get a decent few animals or they dry up in a few years due to over stalking, they wont be returning to pay any money to the farmer anymore, then the farmer will be happy top have the op back. Guys its all a myth about having to pay for stalking its ourselves that are creating the situation, if the guys in question had just asked for permission chances are they would have got it and saved €2k, granted they would have to share with a few locals, but so what thats what most of us have to do but we all still manage.

Grizzly 45

Dont worry about the D10 Range Wova crowd..As harder as this depression bites,their monies will dry up too,and they will find they have priced themselves out of their own leases by offering too high a price for them to the farmers in the first place.They wont make any money from the Continent either,as everyone has shot out the trophy stags,and the Continentals will see thru the Irish Blarney/BS very quickly these days,and report back pronto.Why pay a fortune in Ireland,when you can drive East to Poland ,Hungary,etc and pay very good money for genuine trophy beasts that can be almost suited to your cheque book,and get almost two weeks hunting for a price of a week here???
I mean we could already be highlighting this problem on www.yeswehunt.eu. About our poaching problems and fleece you for money shoots.Changed world folks,the ol Interweb is a mighty thing for message distribution.:D

pedroeibar1

endasmail wrote: »

yea?
what about the everyday lad that does it for the love of the sport but hasnt got money coming out his arsehole
id say your all about the money
u should get a job with the government

Why jump on Redeer and abuse him for saying what he did, he is quite accurate. The day of free shooting is coming to an end and it is being hastened by those who are shooting too many animals and by those who are not prepared to make a reasonable contribution.

If a film company wanted to use your house to record the next episode of Neighbours, wouldn’t you be delighted if they offered you a wad of cash to grant them sole access?

A farmer has an asset – land with deer on it – and it is his right to allow or forbid people access, free of charge or for a fee if he wants to. Doesn’t matter if you like it or not, it’s fact. It is called capitalism.
:rolleyes:
P.

Tackleberrywho

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Why jump on Redeer and abuse him for saying what he did, he is quite accurate. The day of free shooting is coming to an end and it is being hastened by those who are shooting too many animals and by those who are not prepared to make a reasonable contribution.

If a film company wanted to use your house to record the next episode of Neighbours, wouldn’t you be delighted if they offered you a wad of cash to grant them sole access?

A farmer has an asset – land with deer on it – and it is his right to allow or forbid people access, free of charge or for a fee if he wants to. Doesn’t matter if you like it or not, it’s fact. It is called capitalism.
:rolleyes:
P.

`Telling a Fella to get a job with the Government is Hardly abusing him.

Every year I see fella's on here buddying up to get a lease.
20 lads a couple of hundred for a few acres.

Then the locals who have been shooting teh area all their lives suddenly find out that a small wood that teh Local gunclub used to lease for €100 or so a year now has become a couple of thousand.

Or more important they don't find out.
Just find No Shooting/Trespassing signs one morning.

Thankfully it is not as pandemic as some might think.
However the Guys that pay would love the Free Shooters to Pay up or ship out.

Most locals will be looking after the deer.
How does a group who live 100 miles away or more be expected to look after a deer herd?

Considering during the Harsh weather of 2010/11 the country almost came to a stand still.
It is only right an proper that locals get preference over outsiders.

I visit my permissions as much in the off season as I do in the Open season.

Only this week did I pick up some LIVE electric fence that had fallen down (by the Insulators) and located a large rock and re-instated the fence post in the ground.

Do you really think that a fella who is paying $$$$$$$$$$ to shoot deer will be bothered doing things like that?

Drive in, load up and Blaze away more like.
Shoot only Trophy Stags/Bucks when it is the Doe's that do the most Damage to young trees and Crops.

Most Farmers will not entertain Fella's trying to BUY the farmer off.

It's an Culchie thing, we don't like People Telling us what to do!!

GixxerThou

Lads its all a case of supply and demand! For years we have enjoyed the best of shooting for free but look how many more people are shooting deer now! I was at the wild deer conference on Saturday and the figures were staggering, in the last 20 years the number of licenced hunters has gone from under 1000 to 4300 odd last year. With this increase come a bigger demand for better deer stalking ground. Now over the last couple of years with the increase in shooting, lads who are paying big money for woods (myself included) have seen a marked decline in deer numbers in these woods even though some of them are being managed reasonably well. So we look to the private ground around the wood and offer the farmers a few quid to tie the land up so we have a chance to keep the deer numbers at a good level. Now I know this annoys lads but its the only way good ground is going to be minded IMHO, there are too many lads out there with access to private ground beside a coillte wood who shoot everything that sticks its head out, now I know thats not everyone but we all know someone who does it and if it continues then good ground will be a thing of the past and if you want shooting you will have to pay a fortune for access to ground that has been well managed. Deer stalking will become a very expensive hobby in this country.

Sparks

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Most Farmers will not entertain Fella's trying to BUY the farmer off.

Most farmers I know have bills to pay and families to feed. A fella knocking a fencepost back into the ground with a rock won't make sure the mortgage gets paid this month.

I don't have any opinion on whether this is a good step or not for hunting; but I suspect that if your argument to the farmer is that he shouldn't take a few thousand euro from someone because that someone isn't a local (while the locals aren't paying anything), he may well point out the deficiency in your argument in slightly less polite tones.

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

Most farmers I know have bills to pay and families to feed. A fella knocking a fencepost back into the ground with a rock won't make sure the mortgage gets paid this month.

I don't have any opinion on whether this is a good step or not for hunting; but I suspect that if your argument to the farmer is that he shouldn't take a few thousand euro from someone because that someone isn't a local (while the locals aren't paying anything), he may well point out the deficiency in your argument in slightly less polite tones.

Farmers Sparks Rarely have Mortgages that are excessive, Farmers normally cut their cloth to their measure.

Beating a steak into the ground could say the farmer a fortune if his stock got out on the road and caused a RTA.

If you make Fella's pay for shooting what happens?

More deer go to a Game dealer to finance the Payments.
Then more deer are shot so populations drop.
Then these guys have to widen their nets.
Then they need more money, so they shoot more deer.

What was a sport becomes Private Enterprise.
The local lads who help out the farmer, shoot foxes in Lambing times, Rabbits that are eating grass and do various odd jobs FOC are a far better option both on ecological grounds and on financial grounds.

I do have an opinion on Hunting, being a Hunter!
Currently filling out my Permit for 2011/2012

DR6.5

Gixerthou was the wild deer conference any good, anything significant come out of it.



dr6.5

Sparks

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

More deer go to a Game dealer to finance the Payments.

Doesn't matter to the farmer.

Then more deer are shot so populations drop.

Doesn't matter to the farmer at all since that's good for him.

Then these guys have to widen their nets.

So more farmers earn more money.

Then they need more money, so they shoot more deer.

Which is better for more farmers.

You see my point here Tack? Your argument to the farmer to not accept thousands of euro from someone is not exactly up to snuff from the point of view of the chap who has to turn down a few thousand euro and accept more damage from deer to give you what you want.

a far better option both on ecological grounds and on financial grounds.

On ecological grounds, perhaps so. On financial grounds, nope. Not from the point of view of the guy who has to give up the money anyway. Think of a better argument!

GixxerThou

From my experience of farmers in Wicklow they see deer as a pest and will allow as many lads as possible in to shoot them! However by offering them some money the deer are now a valuable asset to their farm and they might tolerate them and help keep an eye out for poachers.. AND maybe not apply for totally unnecessary section 42's!

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

Doesn't matter to the farmer.Doesn't matter to the farmer at all since that's good for him.So more farmers earn more money.Which is better for more farmers.

You see my point here Tack? Your argument to the farmer to not accept thousands of euro from someone is not exactly up to snuff from the point of view of the chap who has to turn down a few thousand euro and accept more damage from deer to give you what you want. On ecological grounds, perhaps so. On financial grounds, nope. Not from the point of view of the guy who has to give up the money anyway. Think of a better argument!

Sparks For a Fella with NO opinion you still like to voice one.:p


I never EVER told a farmer not to accept 40 pieces of Silver;)

I do my Job, Shoot deer, Keep population in check and the Farmer is happy.
Farmers may say they want all deer shot, but if they see you pick off a few every year they are happy.

Tackleberrywho

GixxerThou wrote: »

From my experience of farmers in Wicklow they see deer as a pest and will allow as many lads as possible in to shoot them! However by offering them some money the deer are now a valuable asset to their farm and they might tolerate them and help keep an eye out for poachers.. AND maybe not apply for totally unnecessary section 42's!

I feel yer pain GSXR having to pay, and unless the Farmer has Barley Section 42's I believe are not required.

However, if Wicklow was moved by magic down to Leitrim you would not see half the Hunters there as the Ordeal of having to drive "down the country" would be too much to bear for those lads in there Range Rover Sports and the like.

GixxerThou

DR6.5 wrote: »

Gixerthou was the wild deer conference any good, anything significant come out of it.



dr6.5

Yes it was very interesting and there was a lot of good stuff talked.. The main subject was trying to put together a deer management scheme which is a great idea but we are far from being in a position in this country to do that due to poaching for one and lads overshooting areas. Good day out though, Liam Nolan spoke very well as did Barry Coad, learned a lot of things I didnt know!

Sparks

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Sparks For a Fella with NO opinion you still like to voice one.:p

I have an opinion of farmers and money, mainly because I've seen one farmer in my family lose his farm. What you're dismissing as highly unlikely, I've seen happen up close and personal (and no, it's not a pretty sight in case you're curious); and the argument that you're making for turning down several thousand euro just holds no water in the face of that. I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm just saying your argument needs to be a lot better. It's constructive criticism.

I never EVER told a farmer not to accept 40 pieces of Silver

Yeah, that kind of language won't help your argument much either, I suspect.

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

I have an opinion of farmers and money, mainly because I've seen one farmer in my family lose his farm. What you're dismissing as highly unlikely, I've seen happen up close and personal (and no, it's not a pretty sight in case you're curious); and the argument that you're making for turning down several thousand euro just holds no water in the face of that. I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm just saying your argument needs to be a lot better. It's constructive criticism.Yeah, that kind of language won't help your argument much either, I suspect.

My family are farmers who would not feed them selves if it meant animals were not fed.

I have many relatives with hundreds of acres that would not sell a patch of ground.
I hate to see any farmer pushed off the land.
Not even the famine pushed mine off teh land (they were lucky as they very also craftsmen and could make money other than off the land...........going off topic here.

I suppose I am lucky, most of my permissions are medium to large sized farmers who make a living off their farms so they were never tempted by money.

I have one permission who has 25 acres of farmland on the edge of mountain/forestry.
He told me once he was locked up with TB 3 times in the one year, so he was death on Deer/badgers or any animal that strayed across his land and could spread disease.

I know he requested not so legal methods of deer control measure back in the mid naughties.(it did not happen, but he thought about it)

Being locked up with TB was more of a threat than deer eating grass as his Income stopped completely, however he was convinced rightly or wrongly that deer were spreading it, and nobody was telling him otherwise.

His Farm was Alive with deer, I often saw herds of 30-40 in his fields.

Any amazing sight for anybody!

Sparks

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

they were lucky as they very also craftsmen and could make money other than off the land

Which should tell you that getting enough money to keep the land is the important thing. If Joe Bloggs from D10 will pay €5k to shoot deer on the land, and Joe Local from down the road wants to shoot there for free, and the mortgage payments are due and the diesel bill has gone up again this month, and the feed bill is getting unmanagable....

...well, Joe Local is going to need a very convincing argument. And "erra, you'll be grand" is probably not going to cut it.

Cass

Gonna throw my tuppence worth in here.

Money will always prevail. Most times its not fair on the "average Joe" that has been shooting the land for years, but unfortunately thats the nature of the beast.Of all the permissions i have i know that if offered, 65% or more would take the money and tell me to have a nice day. I also know that at least 25% of them would not do it. Thats not making assumptions, they have been offered money already but refused. I wouldn't blame them for taking the money. I may feel "hard done by" but if in their position saying no to a wad of cash is something i don't think i could do.

A permission/land onwer i had a few years ago took the money. Within 2 seasons the deer were all but wiped out. The lads that paid turned up in numbers greater than he expected. Bringing friends, family, etc. Then there was the cars nearly every day( all hours), and the phone calls from surrounding farmers complainng of lads crossing their land without permission, and shooting on the fringes of their land again without permission. After 2 years this farmer withdrew his "lease" and offered it back to my cousin and i.

Lads paying for land will make it pay. They have to. Very few hunters these days can afford to hand out large sums of money for land without making something from it. I know if i were paying €4,000+ for land that i would not be happy taking 10 - 12 deer a year.

The argument that these lads will not help about the land is kinda moot. They are paying for the land and hence do not need to help out. We do it as an incentive to the land onwers to continue to allow us to shoot their land.

Fact is its a pain that we cannot pay for the lands. If someone can then i can only smile and wish the farmer the best of luck. Remember they are giving free shooting. If someone was so inclined he could shoot 100+ deer a year, make a nice few pound selling the deer without it costing him a penny in leasing. Why shouldn't a farmer (struggling or not) make a few quid if he can?

pedroeibar1

You miss the point Tack.
Why should some farmer not be entitled to rent his shooting when it is what Coillte have been doing for years? Any landowner with shooting rights has the right to control access to shooting on his/her land. If that owner is happy to grant access to a person / group that will in return mend fences, clear rubbish, control vermin, that’s fine. It is a question of balance, of give and take - you take the shooting, you give service in kind, but there should be relevance in the values..

If the same landowner wants to lease the shooting to somebody for cash, well, that’s the prerogative, and he/she will quickly learn that side-benefits like loss of vermin control, fence mending, etc., are the price of the trade-off. I’ve seen worse happen around me with land – years back some farmers sold land @ top $$ to Germans & Dutch and now, the money spent on drink, they moan that they no longer arte allowed graze it.
By your definition I am a city person, but I am lucky enough (and grateful) to have been given several permissions to go rough-shooting. Those permissions I have because I have done / do ‘stuff’ for the owners, they know that they can call on me for a word, a lift to Mass or home from the pub, they know that I will tell them if their cattle are out, etc. If they retract those permissions, well, I will not be available on the way to Mass, or the car will be full on the way home. It is a question of balance.

Your comments on ‘trophy hunting’ and ‘Drive in, load up and Blaze away more like. Shoot only Trophy Stags/Bucks ‘ are an exaggeration – I do not (yet) shoot deer but the deer shooters I know (mainly Dublin based) are more interested in getting out in the fresh air, the stalk, and the freezer than in the size of a rack. There are one or two people around me who bring in the occasional hunter for cash – what they take is considerably less that the numbers poached, usually by lamping.

I was invited to a stalk (my second) at the end of last season to a wood in Wicklow that a friend has permission to shoot – apparently it is a great place – but we saw nothing. Calling in to the farmer on the way home he said he was not surprised that we saw nothing, adding ‘it was like Vietnam up here for the last few nights.’

Rs
P.

PS FWIW to those who wrote giving out about shooting types from Dublin 10, that code is for Ballyfermot, where the denizens are unlikely to drive (their own) Range Rover Vogues or pay several grand for deer stalking.;)

Deerspotter

A few points;

Who says these D4 / 10-D lads are selling the deer? If they are able to pay €4k for the shooting, do you think they’d be arsed going to the game dealer to get €20 for a deer? Most likely the deer will be given (un-skinned & badly gutted) to neighbors or ‘poor’ friends…

Also, why do they have to be bad deer managers? It is just another tainted assumption from the usual Irish begrudgers!
Everyone gives out about trophy hunters and the damage they do. The fact is, even in October, it is tricky to get close enough to a real trophy stag for a photo or a shot, so if these lads are able to do it – then they deserve the trophy! If it was easy – anyone who could piss could do it. It is worse to shoot six pointers – as they taste like muck and will be trophy’s next year…

When money gets involved with sport – the result is 15 minutes of commercials and 10 minutes of play (American Football). Money and sports shouldn’t mix! That is obvious.
It is a shame that money is involved at all – but one good thing might be that the deer hunting rights for the country could be properly carved up – making it harder for the poacher – who at the end of the day, is the real problem.

Tackleberrywho

who said D10?:D

I know lots of lads from Bally'er

Yes there are lads who are decent and only want the stalk and can afford top dollar.

But then there is the scenario that Ezridax alluded to.

Joe offers €4000 a year, next year times are tough for Joe, he brings in 4 mates for a grand a piece.
The mates, think, If I get 4 mates it will only cost me €250 or even less a piece.

Next thing 40 lads are shooting 100 acres and all deer are gone.
After 2 years, the Money is gone, and the deer are gone.


I actually do Blame Coillte as they feed into the price war.
The land should be up for Public lease auction, yes go to the highest bidder, BUT THE HIGHEST bidder is Published and how much he paid is published.
The Highest Bidder is only allowed to shoot the land NOBODY ELSE, not his Son, Cousin, Friend etc etc.

And if some say that is unfair?
Well then a syndicate, but if it is Published how much the lease goes for local gunclubs could pool resources, run a few raffles and be able to match or Better the offers.

Currently the tender system is a throw back to brown envelopes and nod nod wink wink era.

There is 4000 stalkers, and 40000 deer in Wicklow ALONE.(that's 10 deer on average per stalker JUST in WICKLA)<edit, my Maths are dreadful>
So Honors Maths suggests that there is enough deer fro everyone for Free!!

Hope fully this recession will slash prices lower than Ryanair:D:D

Cass

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

But then there is the scenario that Ezridax alluded to.

Allow me to clarify.

I am not suggesting that this is common practise, i am stating what actually happened in my area. I am not making broad sweeping generalisation about all people that pay for leases or rent private lands. Sometimes it is a necessity. Some are lucky to live in an area where land is "freely" available others are not and to guarantee shooting they pay for the privilege. Nothing wrong with that.

pedroeibar1

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

who said D10?:D

Sorry, not you, it was Grizz and then Sparks.

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

But then there is the scenario that Ezridax alluded to.

Joe offers €4000 a year, next year times are tough for Joe, he brings in 4 mates for a grand a piece. The mates, think, If I get 4 mates it will only cost me €250 or even less a piece.

Next thing 40 lads are shooting 100 acres and all deer are gone.
After 2 years, the Money is gone, and the deer are gone.

Then it that situation arises it is the fault of the lessor - any lease should stipulate who/what/where /when can be done on the property. I do not see the scenario you suggest ever happening, it is an exaggeration.

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

The land should be up for Public lease auction, yes go to the highest bidder, BUT THE HIGHEST bidder is Published and how much he paid is published.
The Highest Bidder is only allowed to shoot the land NOBODY ELSE, not his Son, Cousin, Friend etc etc.
Currently the tender system is a throw back to brown envelopes and nod nod wink wink era

Tenders have the benefit of being private. The lessor can decide to go for tender/auction and any conditions like the ones you propose would not be commercially viable who wants to pay a large sum to go out on his own? Anyway, how could your condition be policed? Tendering is not brown envelope stuff, not if it is fairly regulated or scrutinized.

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

There is 4000 stalkers, and 40000 deer in Wicklow ALONE.(that's 40 deer on average per stalker JUST in WICKLA)
So Honors Maths suggests that there is enough deer fro everyone for Free!!

Back to your Tables, Tack, Tables. Must be different honours maths to the ones I did. :P:D:D
Rs
P.

Tackleberrywho

Ok, My Maths are awful.

10 deer on average in wickla alone for every registered stalker in the country.

There is no need for anybody to pay, there is enough country wide for everyone!

steyrprohunter

Since me and my big mouth started this thread Ill add again!!! I can understand everyones point and opinions on this matter and maybe money will always prevail in this pathetic world of ours! Im still standing by my arguement and I believe most of the lads who posted on this will agree that the local hunter will always have more knowledge of the area and be more than willing to help out with fox problems and deer.How can someone living 50-150 miles away do this 3-4 times a week?

Secondly just been to visit one of my best deer stalking grounds for the signature and Mr.farmer informed me that he had a group offering money for the shooting this year cos they couldnt get land anywhere. He refused on the grounds that he had a local lad (mise)! who regurlarly shoots the deer and vermin and that he was happy with our arrangement.Ive taken 6 foxs there in 2 weeks and prob saved him a grand in dead lambs had these foxs not being shot! So fairplay to the guy and lets hope theres lots more out there with common sense and not cash grabbers;)

Sparks

steyrprohunter wrote: »

Ive taken 6 foxs there in 2 weeks and prob saved him a grand in dead lambs had these foxs not being shot!

See, that is a much stronger argument right there.

endasmail

some peoples attitude towards mixing money and sports is a bit much IMO
ya wonder how they were raised thinking that once ya have money youl get what ya want

no deer around me ,went out and made it my business to find out where there was
and i have to cross two counties to get to it

garv123

steyrprohunter wrote: »

Ive taken 6 foxs there in 2 weeks and prob saved him a grand in dead lambs had these foxs not being shot! So fairplay to the guy and lets hope theres lots more out there with common sense and not cash grabbers;)

this was my first taught when i started reading the thread. do farmers who want the foxes shot expect the local guy, who they just refused deer shooting permission to since he were offered money to come and help out and shoot the foxes on his land if he wants lambs etc protected? I highly doubt the fella's from Dublin ( seems to be where everyone says there coming from) come down and spend a night lamping for him? i dont think so. same goes for if he wants rabbits shot.

how much is each dead/injured lamb cost the farmer?

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

See, that is a much stronger argument right there.

I have shot a fox on one of my permissions in 2011 and hundreds of rabbits every year on another (rabbits+Barley= Pi**ed off farmer)

Most of the permissions I have are plagued with Bunnies. I kill Bunnies on mass all year round.

And a few tinnies at Christmas and the odd leg of "well Hung" venison

fallowbuck

look most farmer s can afford not to worry bout morgatges,deisel bills or so on, i no as my bro is a dairy farmer small with just 80 acre tipperary area deer been there as long as i can remember tho numbers have declined recent years he has had plenty of offers for rights of his land people as far as dublin and galway and he politly told them to F off not all farmers are going take the hand off them as soon as they see $$$$$ so have faith they repect the local boys for there years of service and look at them as a freind so who nose maybe in time with the word out normal local guys who love the stalking game truely will over come these (money reckless men) yeah money is power but i think it up to us normal local buys to make there time hell when they shoot on whats been land we shot on for years,they ll come destroy and begone what we cherished for so so long:(:mad:

landkeeper

fallowbuck wrote: »

look most farmer s can afford not to worry bout morgatges,deisel bills or so on, i no as my bro is a dairy farmer small with just 80 acre tipperary area deer been there as long as i can remember tho numbers have declined recent years he has had plenty of offers for rights of his land people as far as dublin and galway and he politly told them to F off not all farmers are going take the hand off them as soon as they see $$$$$ so have faith they repect the local boys for there years of service and look at them as a freind so who nose maybe in time with the word out normal local guys who love the stalking game truely will over come these (money reckless men) yeah money is power but i think it up to us normal local buys to make there time hell when they shoot on whats been land we shot on for years,they ll come destroy and begone what we cherished for so so long:(:mad:

what a load of clap trap:p i'm a farmer and worry about mortgages, diesel bills and so on :eek: every euro makes a difference believe me .but a land owner has the right to lease the shooting rights on his land to whoever he wishes just because folk have shot the local land for little or nothing dosn't give them some god given right to shoot it for ever ,and not all lads paying tidy sums for shooting are going to make a muck of things either in fact the opposite is true i have often found that the lad who is prepared to put his hand in his pocket and pay for the privelidge has more respect for what he is doing , and if they have a long term lease chances are a proper management plan can be implemented

fallowbuck

just because the folk nothing , it was yourselfs who depended on us local folk to do the business when money was nt flowing around so easily into yere hands and glad of it ye were, and yeah ye have the right to lease yere lands to whom ever you like and that you will , 95% of farmers inherited their farm inherited yere house and so on yere excempt from so much so dont give me mouth saying you aint got two penny s to rub of each other you must have a very big hole in your pocket ,greed is what brought this country to its knee,s and still lives on

Deerspotter

Not meaning to take a pop anyone, but proper spelling and grammar makes a post much easier to read.
I am sure I am not alone in saying that some posts are almost illegible. Whilst the point they make might be sound, it is weakened by how hard it is to read or understand...

bunny shooter

Deerspotter wrote: »

Not meaning to take a pop anyone, but proper spelling and grammar makes a post much easier to read.
I am sure I am not alone in saying that some posts are almost illegible. Whilst the point they make might be sound, it is weakened by how hard it is to read or understand...

And some people may have some from of disability that means they have problems reading & writing that you don't have :mad:

Tackleberrywho

I have a couple of permissions that the landowner has poor literacy levels.


I firmly believe because I have a "redneck" accent I get far more FREE shooting than some guy who tells the farmer X,Y or Z

What a previous poster tried to reiterate was, a lot of farmers inherited their farms, and their homes.

Once most Farmers can pay there Bills and have €10,000 in the bank after a years hard work they are very happy.

Farmers are generally conservative and don't like change.
So Strangers pulling in looking to take over the place rarely cuts any turf

The Fella's who used to pay top $$ are now NAMA'ed anyway.
So the Average Seamus will still be welcomed come threshing time

Sparks

fallowbuck wrote: »

we all aint up to your standards

No, but we are all under the same charter here. And it does have a rule on formatting your posts:

Respect formatting ettiquette.

90% of all human communication is non-verbal and thus we need to use that remaining 10% well in order to communicate properly on the forum. So we have a very few short guidelines on some basic formatting points. Please try to keep them in mind.

* No txt spk pls, k? There are more than 160 characters available per post and you have a full keyboard to post with, so please, use it.
* Please try to watch spelling and grammar as well as using paragraphs. Simple things like this make it a lot easier to read posts.
* Please refrain from using all CAPITAL LETTERS, this is the Internet equivalent of shouting and can make posts difficult to read.

We also have a rule - and it's rule number one for a reason - on being civil to one another. So fair warning. Anyone taking a pop at anyone else like that again in this thread gets a week's holidays.

johngalway

fallowbuck wrote: »

but when fxxk heads like you

fallowbuck wrote: »

prat!

Mod

No more of that, thank you.

/Mod

landkeeper

fallowbuck wrote: »

just because the folk nothing , it was yourselfs who depended on us local folk to do the business when money was nt flowing around so easily into yere hands and glad of it ye were, and yeah ye have the right to lease yere lands to whom ever you like and that you will , 95% of farmers inherited their farm inherited yere house and so on yere excempt from so much so dont give me mouth saying you aint got two penny s to rub of each other you must have a very big hole in your pocket ,greed is what brought this country to its knee,s and still lives on

oh how to win friends and influence people:rolleyes: just for your information our farm was not inherited from anyone it was bought and paid for with hard earned money ,the same with the house and sheds and most lads who inherit farms have spent most of their lives to that point working on them usually for very little for their parents
so just because i have a farm now im exempt from so much please tell me what so i can make sure i'm not missing out on something, for the brother of a farmer you sure have a chip on your shoulder about others with land

johngalway

landkeeper wrote: »

every euro makes a difference believe me .

True. I inherited some land, but had to buy the majority of what I own. There are farm income statistics available online, I'm not sure but I doubt most/or a large minority would come up to the average industrial wage level.

meathshooter1

getting back to the OP.money will always win its the root of all evil as they say.Knew a lad who had a lease from coillte for 9yrs was paying big money for it but managed it properly shot 30 deer between them every year only to have coillte give it to a crowd that gave a grand more. (we latter found out) and massacred all the deer in the area 200+ and gave it up the next year.the land they had before that they done the same,took the next lad nearly three years to get it back to a worthwhile shooting ground,he had the land before them and took it back after them.

fallowbuck

Deerspotter wrote: »

Not meaning to take a pop anyone, but proper spelling and grammar makes a post much easier to read.
I am sure I am not alone in saying that some posts are almost illegible. Whilst the point they make might be sound, it is weakened by how hard it is to read or understand...

I tought the whole idea of forums were for difference of opinion, ask for idea and for a general chat,not to scout out people's academic ability the world gets worse by the day:mad: