Fake WW2 stuff on adverts.ie

danpatjoe · 27-03-2011 6:26pm #1

Hello All,

Has anyone noticed the amount of fake WW2 stuff on adverts recently? :mad:
(just do a search on WW2).
A lot of it is from the one seller who openly admits to know little about it although they do have some original stuff in there too, but should one point out the fakes/repros to save someone else from getting burned?

What's the general opinion on this?

Regards - Dan

Morlar · 28-03-2011 11:28am

I hadn't noticed that until I searched all categories for 'ww2' but yep there is a lot of clear fake crap on there at the moment.

I doubt the adverts moderators (as opposed to the militaria forum moderators) would be able to tell the difference.

Possibly they need a rule about collectibles' descriptions, ie something like 'Guaranteed pre 1945 manufacture', which should only be reserved for those which are not questionable and everything else under a different tag or else marked as 'repro /fantasy item' which some of those clearly are.

Wibbs · 28-03-2011 4:53pm

Report the ad as they take that kinda thing seriously. Much more seriously than ebay and they have a fair chunk of people who would be up to speed on various subjects. I've been asked once about a concern over a potentially dodgy watch seller.

Dr Strange · 30-04-2011 11:11am

I think it's time to also start looking at what's actually out there on www.adverts.ie. This is so close to "home" so to speak.

I find this seller has a lot of very dubious items and, when challenged, insists on his items being original.

We probably can't do much about it on adverts but we can warn people here to be careful.

So here are some items I don't believe to be original WWII militaria:

WW2 GERMAN BADGE
http://www.adverts.ie/512445

My opinion: shoddy workmanship, would've never passed stringent German quality checks of the time. To any potential collector: the first thing about German WWII medals and decorations is quality. No matter what metals where used they were a stickler for quality and detail. If you see any workmanship you feel isn't up to standard you can be pretty sure it wouldn't have come out of official production companies.

WW2 GERMAN RING SIGNED
http://www.adverts.ie/512463

Same as above.

WW2 GERMAN BADGE CRIMINAL POLICE
http://www.adverts.ie/512441

Known fake. Terrible cast. What else can I say?

WW2 GERMAN BADGE
http://www.adverts.ie/512435

An RZM mark on a badge like this? Oh dear.

WW2 GERMAN IRON CROSS II CLASS
http://www.adverts.ie/512395

Read the comments on this one and then look at the seller's replies. For someone who claims "he's not an expert" but tries to justify this fantasy product as original, it's just beyond me.

WW2 GERMAN ORIGINAL RING SIGNED, SILVER
http://www.adverts.ie/512416

and

WW2 GERMAN ORIGINAL RING SIGNED, SILVER
http://www.adverts.ie/512411

For crying out loud what rubbish is this?

WW2 GERMAN ORIGINAL LAHSS II STAMP VERY RARE!!!
http://www.adverts.ie/512390

Very rare indeed. Like all the other seals and stamps that have flooded in from Eastern Europe over the last decade. Rubbish!

Wibbs wrote:

Report the ad as they take that kinda thing seriously. Much more seriously than ebay and they have a fair chunk of people who would be up to speed on various subjects. I've been asked once about a concern over a potentially dodgy watch seller.

I did and nothing happened, Wibbs.

phaethon · 30-04-2011 6:43pm

Like all the other seals and stamps that have flooded in from Eastern Europe over the last decade. Rubbish!

Not only Eastern Europe. There is few trends around:

1. Iron Crosses (as well 1870 model) most fakes (and dangerosly good!) are coming from Latvia.
2. every kind a badges (IABs, PABs, etc) + imperial fakes are coming mostly from Germany
3. Pour le Merite - famous "Spanish fakes"
4. Medal bars - Austria - there is few sourses but one of them is dangerous because looks like they are studing items over the forums. One of my German general bar, what I owned was faked same time (put together from original and fake awards) and sold with the details what I have listed on the forum.
5. Ribbon bars - USA - so called "Ohio fakes". Bars are butted together, using original ribbons and partialy original devices. Good reason why to always check the back. Details, what gives i away there. Also "black light" test.

This kind a grap, what user "Salma 333" sells on adverts is harmless - you can see that these are fakes from the mile.

Bad copies of ODMs; wrong material, crude details or even fantacy awards - main factories of these.... suprise suprise China (I think in 90s Russia).

Just my two cents,

Phaethon

danpatjoe · 30-04-2011 6:49pm

Preusse wrote: »

.... I did and nothing happened, Wibbs.

Same here, so now that's 3 people (that I know of) that reported ads and nothing happened.

There was an absolutely terrible one piece 1870 EK1 fake on sale last week that has now sold, but I presume by the price the buyer knew it was a fake. It started at €65 and went for €45 (I think).
What annoyed me was that when the ad was first posted, the seller did not state that it was a fake, but included the line "sold as is". However the ad was later edited and this was removed, leaving the ad with no indication that the item was a fake.

Looks like there's not a lot we can do about it. :mad:

Morlar · 30-04-2011 8:35pm

FYI I reported them too. That user should be banned.

danpatjoe · 30-04-2011 9:33pm

phaethon wrote: »

...This kind a grap, what user "Salma 333" sells on adverts is harmless - you can see that these are fakes from the mile....

I agree that 'we' can see that they are fakes, but I disagree about them being harmless - how many times do we see new collectors showing up on forums posting their first purchase only to hear that they have just purchased a fake?

I believe that selling this crap without stating that it is reproduction/fake (or downright fantasy), will ruin the hobby for many young collectors. Many get into the hobby in the first place after buying their first item - this is how I started. I was not even aware of on-line fora when I purchased my first EK2, but I was lucky that it turned out to be good - my collecting might have stopped before it even got started had I found out that I had been ripped off.

Regards - Dan

BTW.. I'm really having trouble fighting the impulse to buy your ORS on adverts at the moment!

Do you know from the serial number when it was awarded?

EDIT: Dang! already sold, someone else got there first!
Good luck to them, it was a very nice looking example.

Little Alex · 30-04-2011 11:07pm

I have to admit that I would not be able to tell if any of that stuff is real or fake. But then again, I know very little about WWII stuff other than it is all sensationally expensive and that because of this there are a lot of fakes around. That and the fact that you need a degree in Third Reich Regalia Studies to be able to tell if something is real or fake.

The collar tabs are real I think, but they are DDR and not Third Reich. In my opinion.

phaethon · 01-05-2011 1:55pm

danpatjoe wrote: »

I agree that 'we' can see that they are fakes, but I disagree about them being harmless - how many times do we see new collectors showing up on forums posting their first purchase only to hear that they have just purchased a fake?

Yes, in this way I take my words back - anything what is made in order to sell for a profit as a Third Reich item, is dangerous for a starters and who don't know the stuff.

However, nowadays we have a possibility to learn and study, using internet, forums, publifications, before the purchase. Of course lots of depend of exerience as well but some kind a "homework" has to be done. Based on that, mistakes like the seller on adverts are avoidable.
When I start collecting, I spent almost 50% of my monthly "collection budget" for a materials, memberships to different forums, etc. I think saved me some money in the end.

90% stuff in Ireland fairs and Dublin only awards seller on the market looks like a garbage and are not even close to the fakes what are now floating around in the collectors communities.
In the end, just this period awards are way too much over priced and some grade/awards has more fakes in the market then original ever produced during 1939-1945. Even if you get a nice original item, you can't never be sure when it was actually made because few German manufactures produced items after the war, using same tools, materials, etc...

Here is the link to the one price list from 60s....

Someone asks, what the heck is this.... answer is; on this address was Gebrüder Godet & Co... owner's daughter was married with dr. Kurt Klietmann

.

danpatjoe wrote: »

BTW.. I'm really having trouble fighting the impulse to buy your ORS on adverts at the moment! Do you know from the serial number when it was awarded?

EDIT: Dang! already sold, someone else got there first!
Good luck to them, it was a very nice looking example.

Sorry, this one went fast! I will add more stuff up on there some moments now, when I get time to check my boxes.

Serial number indicates end of the war 1945 spring/summer awarding. Most likelly awarded for long service.

Sold one of my earliest 120 xxx few months ago and the new owner let the research done - turned out a pilot! Lucky bas...rd!:D
Somehow happened with few of my very good stuff what I have let go - can you imagine USA THREE PLACE RIBBON BAR, what was possible to narrow down to the owner just based on the award combination on the set?:rolleyes:

Regards,

Timo

Dr Strange · 01-05-2011 3:26pm

phaethon wrote: »

...
90% stuff in Ireland fairs and Dublin only awards seller on the market looks like a garbage and are not even close to the fakes what are now floating around in the collectors communities.

Not only that, but there are so-called Irish "experts" (or in this case one particular "expert", who has his own business in medals) who is telling his customers porkies about genuine articles they bought somewhere else.

I had a case like that, sold some 100% genuine items only for this guy to put a flea in the buyer's ear. The buyer sent the items (bar one, an Iron cross second class) back to me and I refunded the whole amount, so the buyer got the EK for free. It wasn't really the buyers fault (although he could've researched this a bit more in-depth himself rather than just taking this guys word as gospel) though it was the "expert" who put doubt into the buyers mind. Not only that, the "expert" also damaged the items which I only saw after the items were returned to me. I then proceeded to put these on a forum in Germany yet again with the resulting opinions that they were absolutely genuine. I didn't doubt it as I got it directly from the family but wanted to see other people's opinions. I didn't sell them again though but gave to a new collector for free (wouldn't want to sell this again with the damage done to it).

There are some serious chancers out here in Ireland and some will go to great length to rubbish anything bought outside their own shops/stalls just to make them look legitimate.

phaethon · 01-05-2011 7:29pm

There are some serious chancers out here in Ireland and some will go to great length to rubbish anything bought outside their own shops/stalls just to make them look legitimate.

Totally agree with you on this point;). I don't know which "expert" you are talking about but I quess....:p

BUT there is always funny part with them as well. Especially when it comes to the world orders and decoraions. I have got some of my best deals like this because they just don't know what they have or-and bother to reasearch. Some examples what I have got during last year or so:

- Austrian War Merit Cross with the war ribbon and swrods device - 60 eur
- Serbia Bravery medal, smaller (pre 1914) paid 25 eur (sold to me as a imperial russian "thing"!)
- MBE, 2nd type - 30 euro

These are few examples what I am remember straight away. But there has been more. These items I bought from the award dealers, who have shown sometimes not the best manners to the customers, etc. And it is they work to check out what they have in first place! If I am buying something from the person, I always show the prices, what online shops, etc are showing and then make them fair offer.

Ah, stories about the dealers, purchasing items are endless I quess.

Regarding he adverts - someone whould bring it up to the moderators that the fakes on there, sold as a originals (even when they are bought from Germany - hey, they have fakes there as well:D!!!!!) will be bad to their business in first place. End of story!

Have a nice Sunday guys,

Timo

danpatjoe · 20-05-2011 2:00am

Well, that's a good way to get rid of comments regarding fakes on a sales thread... pull the ad and then re-list it. :mad:

The old fake iron cross is back up, still without any comment about it being a fake despite numerous people informing the seller of this fact, AND the ad being reported more than once. :mad: :mad:

Not a good thing for Adverts.ie's credibility.

http://www.adverts.ie/memorabilia/ww2-german-iron-cross/605789

jill_valentine · 20-05-2011 2:13am

Just a thought, but maybe everything should be labelled a reproduction by default unless it's vetted as probably genuine by somebody from Militaria?

Morlar · 20-05-2011 2:46am

jill_valentine wrote: »

Just a thought, but maybe everything should be labelled a reproduction by default unless it's vetted as probably genuine by somebody from Militaria?

I think that is a good idea. Considering the total lack of action by the adverts moderators to reported items I don't expect it to happen but it would save some people from getting burned. Gets my vote.

Dr Strange · 20-05-2011 7:55am

I sent a link of this thread to an adverts admin. Hopefully, we can have a discussion with adverts on this soon.

If you find any new links by that the seller please put them in here as well so we can keep them updated.

Thanks!

PS: Smashey, sorry for the triple PM, for some reason boards stalled for me when I sent the message.

smashey · 20-05-2011 6:40pm

Hi Preusse,

Thanks for alerting me to this. We take this very seriously and as mentioned here previously the items on sale are things that, while we were aware there was an issue, we had to take the seller's word for it when we asked the question. Now that I have the collective experience from the regulars in this forum, it gives me a clearer view of these items and we will act accordingly.

Dr Strange · 20-05-2011 7:19pm

smashey wrote: »

Hi Preusse,

Thanks for alerting me to this. We take this very seriously and as mentioned here previously the items on sale are things that, while we were aware there was an issue, we had to take the seller's word for it when we asked the question. Now that I have the collective experience from the regulars in this forum, it gives me a clearer view of these items and we will act accordingly.

Hi smashey,

Thanks very much for replying here. That sounds good. Please don't hesitate to bounce anything off the guys and moderators here if you have any questions.

smashey · 09-06-2011 3:05pm

Hey guys,

Busy over at adverts recently. The ads for the WWII items are here - http://www.adverts.ie/for-sale/antiques-collectables/memorabilia/70/user-435549/type_all/

Are they all replicas?

Thanks

Dr Strange · 09-06-2011 4:26pm

smashey wrote: »

... for operational reasons changed by Preusse...

How fitting

As for the ads, for now definitely the Iron Cross, SS Watch, LAHSS Stamp and SS ring are highly suspect. Others may be able to tell you more. The problem is that if you have mainly fakes/reproductions it makes it very difficult to believe that any of the not-so-suspect items are in fact genuine.

smashey · 09-06-2011 5:27pm

Preusse wrote: »

How fitting

As for the ads, for now definitely the Iron Cross, SS Watch, LAHSS Stamp and SS ring are highly suspect. Others may be able to tell you more. The problem is that if you have mainly fakes/reproductions it makes it very difficult to believe that any of the not-so-suspect items are in fact genuine.

Cheers Preusse. I'll wait for a few of the other regulars to have a look here as well

Morlar · 09-06-2011 5:58pm

smashey wrote: »

Cheers Preusse. I'll wait for a few of the other regulars to have a look here as well

Hi Smashey,

There are some genuine/possibly genuine items mixed in there.

The following have a chance of being genuine, everything else is faked or 'fantasy' items being sold fraudulently, represented as genuine. The binoculars I am not sure about.

BTW what is the adverts policy on a faked (SS Iron Cross) item being withdrawn but then re-listed ? Is there a number of 'strikes' before a seller is perma-banned ?

http://www.adverts.ie/memorabilia/ww2-german-kvk-brown-medal-with-swastika/483150
possibly genuine, approx 3 times the market value.

http://www.adverts.ie/memorabilia/ww2-german-kvk-gold-medal-with-swastika/483137
possibly genuine - approx 3 times market value.

http://www.adverts.ie/memorabilia/arbeitsbuch-x-2-husband-and-wife-100-authentic/483129
possibly genuine -approx 5 times market value

http://www.adverts.ie/memorabilia/german-kennkarte-100-authentic/483114
possibly genuine - approx 8 times market value

http://www.adverts.ie/memorabilia/ww2-german-kvk-ii-class-medal-with-swastika/483070
possibly genuine - approx 2 times market value.

Dr Strange · 09-06-2011 6:47pm

Morlar wrote: »

Hi Smashey,

There are some genuine/possibly genuine items mixed in there.

The following have a chance of being genuine, everything else is faked or 'fantasy' items being sold fraudulently, represented as genuine. The binoculars I am not sure about.

BTW what is the adverts policy on a faked (SS Iron Cross) item being withdrawn but then re-listed ? Is there a number of 'strikes' before a seller is perma-banned ?

http://www.adverts.ie/memorabilia/ww2-german-kvk-brown-medal-with-swastika/483150
possibly genuine, approx 3 times the market value.

http://www.adverts.ie/memorabilia/ww2-german-kvk-gold-medal-with-swastika/483137
possibly genuine - approx 3 times market value.

http://www.adverts.ie/memorabilia/arbeitsbuch-x-2-husband-and-wife-100-authentic/483129
possibly genuine -approx 5 times market value

http://www.adverts.ie/memorabilia/german-kennkarte-100-authentic/483114
possibly genuine - approx 8 times market value

http://www.adverts.ie/memorabilia/ww2-german-kvk-ii-class-medal-with-swastika/483070
possibly genuine - approx 2 times market value.

I would agree with you on these items.

arnhem44 · 09-06-2011 6:55pm

His dishonesty and greed is evident.Sticking a few (possibly) authentic items in with the suspect ones and claiming he's not an expert on such items opens up the problem even more I think,they'll always be someone not just this seller selling something that they may think is real turn out to be fake.Whilst we all here know that he's blatantly selling fakes how does one tackle this problem now or in the future.Maybe an opinion poll built into the listings for people to add a vote whether they think an item is genuine,fake or unsure may provide a potential buyer a better understanding of the item that's for sale and ask questions before rushing into buying something.Also make it compulsory for the seller to vote on his listing and let people negotiate from there.Just an idea.

Wibbs · 09-06-2011 7:03pm

The watch is wrong. 100% ready up of the wrong era with later SS stickers. It was never issued or owned by a member of the SS. It's worth about 20, if you could get a buyer.

The binoculars are post war, as during the war they would have had a code on them, not the makers name(berlin). But they're not claiming more and the price is OK if the optics work.

danpatjoe · 09-06-2011 7:55pm

Morlar has pretty much summed it up here alright.
I agree that all except the (overpriced) few he has mentioned here are fake or fantasy pieces.

I have no problem with the seller having these up for sale but ONLY if the are clearly stated to be reproductions.

Regards - Dan

Morlar wrote: »

Hi Smashey,

There are some genuine/possibly genuine items mixed in there.

The following have a chance of being genuine, everything else is faked or 'fantasy' items being sold fraudulently, represented as genuine. The binoculars I am not sure about.

BTW what is the adverts policy on a faked (SS Iron Cross) item being withdrawn but then re-listed ? Is there a number of 'strikes' before a seller is perma-banned ?

http://www.adverts.ie/memorabilia/ww2-german-kvk-brown-medal-with-swastika/483150
possibly genuine, approx 3 times the market value.

http://www.adverts.ie/memorabilia/ww2-german-kvk-gold-medal-with-swastika/483137
possibly genuine - approx 3 times market value.

http://www.adverts.ie/memorabilia/arbeitsbuch-x-2-husband-and-wife-100-authentic/483129
possibly genuine -approx 5 times market value

http://www.adverts.ie/memorabilia/german-kennkarte-100-authentic/483114
possibly genuine - approx 8 times market value

http://www.adverts.ie/memorabilia/ww2-german-kvk-ii-class-medal-with-swastika/483070
possibly genuine - approx 2 times market value.

Jagdtiger · 09-06-2011 8:54pm

I also agree with the Morlar on these medals.

This sellers dishonesty even with the original items amazes me, it seems

to me that he knows more than he's letting on, the use of German

abbreviation in the medal descriptions shows that there is some

knowledge or research gone into them and a short browse on the internet

will inform someone that these medals aren't "VERY RARE" (and even if he

knows very little about them as he claims, he still shouldn't be using

"VERY RARE" in the description as he wouldn't know).

Rant over

Morlar · 22-06-2011 4:58pm

These all need to be looked at in my view.

In fact it could well be the faker salma333 re-registered:
List

http://www.adverts.ie/search/user-467406

A)

medaille fur besondere kulturelle leistungen

Posted by janek1979
Blanchardstown, Dublin
http://www.adverts.ie/other-antiques-collectables/medaille-fur-besondere-kulturelle-leistungen/674981

Schnellboot-Kriegsabzeichen 2. Form ORIGINAL

Asking price:
€300

http://www.adverts.ie/memorabilia/schnellboot-kriegsabzeichen-2-form-original/674957

C)

Schnellboot-Kriegsabzeichen 2. Form ORIGINAL

Asking price:
€300

http://www.adverts.ie/other-antiques-collectables/schnellboot-kriegsabzeichen-2-form-original/674966

D)

http://www.adverts.ie/memorabilia/ww2-german-original-second-stamp-with-star-of-david-very-rare/670121

WW2 GERMAN ORIGINAL SECOND STAMP WITH STAR OF DAVID VERY RARE!!!

Asking price:
€70
Description:

WW2 GERMAN ORIGINAL SECOND STAMP WITH STAR OF DAVID VERY RARE!!!

MEASURE 3,7 CM X 12 CM

I HAVE BOUGHT IT WITH MANY OTHER GERMAN BADGES IN BERLIN A FEW YEARS AGO.

PLEASE SEE MY OTHER ITEMS FROM II WORLD WORD

Dr Strange · 22-06-2011 7:02pm

Danzig -Fuer besondere kulturelle Leistungen

Absolutely not original. I know, I specialise in Danzig items. This one can create problems for many non-Danzig collectors as the original looks really close but the swastika and eagle on the back is a give-away. The original time-period ones did not have any insignia on them but just the price winner and maybe category at the back.

kowloon · 23-06-2011 4:39am

This is why I never even attempted to collect German, and why I stopped collecting Soviet. Way too many fakes around for someone with my poor eye for detail.

As far back as primary school I always wanted an Iron Cross. Funny thing is, if I had picked one up at the time not only would there have been a decent chance of it being genuine, but it would have been affordable. Now they're just taunting me.

Dr Strange · 23-06-2011 7:49am

kowloon wrote: »

This is why I never even attempted to collect German, and why I stopped collecting Soviet. Way too many fakes around for someone with my poor eye for detail.

As far back as primary school I always wanted an Iron Cross. Funny thing is, if I had picked one up at the time not only would there have been a decent chance of it being genuine, but it would have been affordable. Now they're just taunting me.

I am sure you can get one from the Militaria boardsies and can be safe in the knowledge that you got an original!

Fake WW2 stuff on adverts.ie

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