more than 3 shots in a semiauto shotgun

raff e30

is it possible to legally get a semiauto shotgun in ireland with more than 3 shots??
what sort of licence will i need for it

Cass

Yes.

If a shotgun can hold more than 3 shots you have 2 options.

• Have it plugged/blocked to not allow it to hold more than 3 and apply for a non-restricted frearms license.
• Keep it being able to hold more than 3 shots and apply for a restricted firearms license.

The only difference between the two is with the restricted license your Chief Super processess the application, and you may be required to "upgrade" your security systems/levels.

raff e30

so it isnt much different than the licence for a plugged semi?

Cass

They are two seperate licenses and require two different types of applications.

If the semi auto is already plugged so that it cannot hold more than 3 shots then its a non restricted firearm that is dealt with by your Super. I will not say these are easier to get than a restricted license, but i would imagine you would have to show more cause/need/good reason to have a semi auto that holds more than 3 shots. As mentioned above all restricted firearms applications are dealt with by the Chief Super, and may require an interview if he deems it necessary.

When i mentioned the upgrade in security what i was refering to was SI 307/2009. For example if you have no other firearms and you were going for a non restricted license for a 3 shot semi auto you come under the first level of security, namely a trigger lock and for the firearm to be broken down and stored seperately. By going for the restricted license even though its the same firearm (just able to hold more) you are now in the second level of security and require a safe bolted to a wall/solid structure.

The same applies as you go up the security list. If you have a rifle (say a .22lr) and another shotgun, Over/Under, or even a deer rifle. You have two unrestricted firearms and a semi auto with 3 shots has you still inside level 2. However the restrcited semi auto (more than 3 shots) could push you into level 3. Only the Chief Super can clarify exactly what he'll/she'll want.

Just worth keeping in mind before buying or applying.

raff e30

Ezridax wrote: »

They are two seperate licenses and require two different types of applications.

If the semi auto is already plugged so that it cannot hold more than 3 shots then its a non restricted firearm that is dealt with by your Super. I will not say these are easier to get than a restricted license, but i would imagine you would have to show more cause/need/good reason to have a semi auto that holds more than 3 shots. As mentioned above all restricted firearms applications are dealt with by the Chief Super, and may require an interview if he deems it necessary.

When i mentioned the upgrade in security what i was refering to was SI 307/2009. For example if you have no other firearms and you were going for a non restricted license for a 3 shot semi auto you come under the first level of security, namely a trigger lock and for the firearm to be broken down and stored seperately. By going for the restricted license even though its the same firearm (just able to hold more) you are now in the second level of security and require a safe bolted to a wall/solid structure.

The same applies as you go up the security list. If you have a rifle (say a .22lr) and another shotgun, Over/Under, or even a deer rifle. You have two unrestricted firearms and a semi auto with 3 shots has you still inside level 2. However the restrcited semi auto (more than 3 shots) could push you into level 3. Only the Chief Super can clarify exactly what he'll/she'll want.

Just worth keeping in mind before buying or applying.

thanks for the info!
i have a semi shotgun,and a .22 rifle
and my local guard said if i get another gun ill need a security system in the house.
to avoid that,i sold the rifle and now want to get another shotgun.
but by the looks of it im not going to get around the security thing,as im looking to buy a semi with more than 3 shots

Minky 123

Surley 3 shots is enough in any shotgun as you do get time to reload.:rolleyes:

BoatMad

The only difference between the two is with the restricted license your Chief Super processess the application, and you may be required to "upgrade" your security systems/levels.

Well thats an oversimplication, the main difference is the much higher "good reason" What is your "good reason", I suspect it will be difficult to justify


Dave

raff e30

BoatMad wrote: »

Well thats an oversimplication, the main difference is the much higher "good reason" What is your "good reason", I suspect it will be difficult to justify


Dave

trick shooting!
only thing id use it for.
what would be a better reason??

Grizzly 45

Vermin shooting, is another.If you travel,there are countries in the EU who arent too upset about you using more than three shots on driven shoots.Hungary is one..Managed for the first time ever a double double[IE four birds,four shots] on a pheasent shoot last Nov over there.First bird hit the ground as the last was being shot.:D:D

Cass

BoatMad wrote: »

Well thats an oversimplication, ...........

Did you read the rest of my posts?

You took one sentence and out of context it looks that way. My second post explains the security, good reason, application process differences.

BoatMad

Sorry I wasn't trying to joss anyone. But what is a "good reason" for a semi shotgun with over 3 , ie restricted. I can't see any good reason. It matters not what " security " you have the main justification is " good reason". I can't see " trick shots" being accepted. According my FO shotguns are not regarded as good reason in general for vermin ( non flying) control. ( rifles being better regarded)

raff e30

BoatMad wrote: »

Sorry I wasn't trying to joss anyone. But what is a "good reason" for a semi shotgun with over 3 , ie restricted. I can't see any good reason. It matters not what " security " you have the main justification is " good reason". I can't see " trick shots" being accepted. According my FO shotguns are not regarded as good reason in general for vermin ( non flying) control. ( rifles being better regarded)

im shure theres some one with a semi with more than 3 shots out there,
what reason did they give?
i wouldnt be using it for hunting or vermin control.
dont go hunting any more,just clays.
how am i gonna make that clear to a guard?

bunny shooter

raff e30 wrote: »

............just clays.
how am i gonna make that clear to a guard?

Shooting clay is that on an established clay ground?

Can't see too many clay grounds allowing more than 2 shells being loaded.

Therefore, that leaves shooting clays on private property, which Gardai may not approve of?

raff e30

bunny shooter wrote: »

Shooting clay is that on an established clay ground?

Can't see too many clay grounds allowing more than 2 shells being loaded.

Therefore, that leaves shooting clays on private property, which Gardai may not approve of?

ur right there would be on my own land.
i am a member of a clay shooting club which would probably help
my local guard knows im shooting on my own land in the forestry,and has nothing against it,he even said hed love to come some time:D
but its the super who decides if i get the licence or not?

Grizzly 45

I can't see " trick shots" being accepted. According my FO shotguns are not regarded as good reason in general for vermin ( non flying) control. ( rifles being better regarded)

UH Huh!!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:.More makey uppy law !!

You could also put down Target shotgun [falling plate and paper a recognised NASRPC and BDS shooting T & P 1 - 30 shot, Multi Target - 24 shot, Embassy Cup - 24 shot out to a max distance
of 25m] Hopefuly there will be a competition this year here for both restricted and unrestricted shotguns,as well as for the semi auto rifle segment.
Its time to come out of the closet if you have one of these guns.:D

kemen

why would you need more than 3 shells for clays? its hardlt simulated game your shooting! any clay will only allow 2 shells it a semi auto! there is however a semi auto chamionship in england which allows 3 shot!

Cass

raff e30 wrote: »

what would be a better reason??

raff e30 wrote: »

im shure theres some one with a semi with more than 3 shots out there,
what reason did they give?

It hasn't been said quite so bluntly so i'll say it.

If you need reasons that others gave, suggestions as to what reasons would suffice, etc then you would need to ask yourself if the reason you want it, other than to have it, is valid enough to get one. Clay shooting, and "i want one" will not get you there.

This could all be for nothing as your reason may be grand, and you may have no problems at all, but giving a reason that others use and you do not could end up catching yourself out.

raff e30

Ezridax wrote:

If you need reasons that others gave, suggestions as to what reasons would suffice, etc then you would need to ask yourself if the reason you want it, other than to have it, is valid enough to get one. Clay shooting, and "i want one" will not get you there.

This could all be for nothing as your reason may be grand, and you may have no problems at all, but giving a reason that others use and you do not could end up catching yourself out

ur probably right.
all i can do is try it,and see what happens.
might get lucky:rolleyes: not that i ever had any luck with guards!
all i need now is a good gun,was tinking of the benelli m2?
have a benelli already and well pleased with it:D

clivej

I was just looking through the "The Garda Commissioner’s Guidelines as to the Practical Application and Operation of the Firearms Acts, 1925-2009." and on page 22, I've put in the bold type,it says this:

"Shotguns

Shotguns for clay pigeon competitions are generally double-barrelled and of 12 gauge. Pump-action or semi-automatic shotguns are sometimes used in local or parish competitions; however shotguns which have prominent pistol grips or folding or telescopic stocks or a magazine capacity which allows more than three (3) cartridges to be loaded in the shotgun are more dangerous and are no more effective."

So does this allow for 3 shells in the mag and 1 in the chamber? Or is it double speak again 'cos in reality you can only 'load' 1 shell at a time?

raff e30

clivej wrote: »

I was just looking through the "The Garda Commissioner’s Guidelines as to the Practical Application and Operation of the Firearms Acts, 1925-2009." and on page 22, I've put in the bold type,it says this:

"Shotguns

Shotguns for clay pigeon competitions are generally double-barrelled and of 12 gauge. Pump-action or semi-automatic shotguns are sometimes used in local or parish competitions; however shotguns which have prominent pistol grips or folding or telescopic stocks or a magazine capacity which allows more than three (3) cartridges to be loaded in the shotgun are more dangerous and are no more effective."

So does this allow for 3 shells in the mag and 1 in the chamber? Or is it double speak again 'cos in reality you can only 'load' 1 shell at a time?

good point
and what does this mean "are more dangerous and are no more effective"

clivej

raff e30 wrote: »

good point
and what does this mean "are more dangerous and are no more effective"

Goes on to say no effective than single or DB shotguns

Cass

clivej wrote: »

So does this allow for 3 shells in the mag and 1 in the chamber? Or is it double speak again 'cos in reality you can only 'load' 1 shell at a time?

Our definition of loaded and the Gardai's definition of loaded are different. If someone told me the gun was loaded i would immediately consider there to be a round in the chamber/breach. As in ready to fire. In the case of the Gardai loaded means the firearm has ammunition in it, but not necessarily "one in the spout". So if a Garda caught you with a semi auto, with one in the tube and 3 in the mag, then you are in breach of your license and subject to charging/prosecution.

3 means 3 in total. Irrespective of the "position" of the round within the firearm. So 2 in the "mag" and 1 ready to fire or 3 in the mag is all the same.

raff e30 wrote: »

good point
and what does this mean "are more dangerous and are no more effective"

clivej wrote: »

Goes on to say no effective than single or DB shotguns

Again its only my inference, but as all clay shoots aonly alow for 2 shots to be fired at any one time, the Gardai do not see clay shooting as a valid reason to have a semi auto or pump action shotgun. The ability to hold more than 2 rounds is moot in their opinion.

As to the folding stock and pistol grip, well i'm not even going to speculate as to their thinking on this matter. In my own personal view the shape of the gun/stock, etc bears no relevance to how safe it is. Thats the shooters responsibility.

Sparks

Ezridax wrote: »

As to the folding stock and pistol grip, well i'm not even going to speculate as to their thinking on this matter.

That particular line of thought has been coming from them since before 2004 (long before the founding of the FCP). If it wasn't for the point that every olympic rifle on the market today technically has a telescopic/collapsing/removable buttplate, the same rule would apply for all firearms (and it nearly did anyway, the NTSA had to intervene with the DoJ to avoid it). So that line of thought is coming from a place that perhaps might be happier if we all sold all our firearms and just took up tiddlywinks instead. There isn't, by the way, a prohibition on shotguns with those features, but you do need the restricted licence for them.

(And I think it goes without saying that you're right about the reality of the stock shape's impact on safety!)

Grizzly 45

Ezridax wrote: »

Again its only my inference, but as all clay shoots aonly alow for 2 shots to be fired at any one time, the Gardai do not see clay shooting as a valid reason to have a semi auto or pump action shotgun. The ability to hold more than 2 rounds is moot in their opinion.

Its three is acceptable.And clay shooting is a valid and accepted good reason by AGS for any type of shotgun.They put it down as" hunting" irrespective if you ever intend to fire a shot at a game bird ever in your life.

As to the folding stock and pistol grip, well i'm not even going to speculate as to their thinking on this matter. In my own personal view the shape of the gun/stock, etc bears no relevance to how safe it is. Thats the shooters responsibility.

somone went away and watched one too many re runs of Miami Vice and decided that folding stocks are somhow more leathl than normal wood stocks.:rolleyes:Where all they do is make the gun more uncofortable to shoot,and not very compact either,with a min 24in barrel it isnt that easy to swing around in enclosed spaces.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Where all they do is make the gun more uncofortable to shoot,and not very compact either,with a min 24in barrel it isnt that easy to swing around in enclosed spaces.

To be fair, the 24 inch minimum wasn't in place back then. But yes, it seems like it's just someone was making up threats in the AGS and this one seems to have stuck around.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Its three is acceptable.And clay shooting is a valid and accepted good reason by AGS for any type of shotgun.They put it down as" hunting" irrespective if you ever intend to fire a shot at a game bird ever in your life.

So if i put down clays as a reason for wanting a 7 shot semi auto (example), that would be a good enough reason, and then on my license or in PULSE they (AGS) would put me down as having a 7 shot semi auto for game/hunting, even though i may not be a member of a game club or not even have land permissions to shoot on.

Without being a dick, i cannot believe that.

Firstly the having a 7 shot semi auto (again an example) for clay pigeon shooting ONLY, would be a hard sell. Any Garda with an ounce of knowledge in shooting knows that a double barrel shotgun is the preferred choice by the majority of shooters. Not to mention the ongoing "snobbery" of some ranges to only allow DB to be used and exclude semis and P/A.

Secondly if i put down on my FCA1 that i want a particular gun for a particular reason and the Garda in question changes that reason without my knowledge its the same as my giving fraudulent information. I've said for ages that the primary reason for wanting a firearm does not exclude other uses for the firearm so you are not limited, but how would it work if my details on PULSE said "Game shooting/hunting" and in the space for land/gun club details the space is blank.


I hope you can understand my confusion on this.

Grizzly 45

Ezridax wrote: »

So if i put down clays as a reason for wanting a 7 shot semi auto (example), that would be a good enough reason, and then on my license or in PULSE they (AGS) would put me down as having a 7 shot semi auto for game/hunting, even though i may not be a member of a game club or not even have land permissions to shoot on.

Without being a dick, i cannot believe that

Firstly the having a 7 shot semi auto (again an example) for clay pigeon shooting ONLY, would be a hard sell. Any Garda with an ounce of knowledge in shooting knows that a double barrel shotgun is the preferredchoice by the majority of shooters. Not to mention the ongoing "snobbery" of some ranges to only allow DB to be used and exclude semis and P/A.

Secondly if i put down on my FCA1 that i want a particular gun for a particular reason and the Garda in question changes that reason without my knowledge its the same as my giving fraudulent information


. I've said for ages that the primary reason for wanting a firearm does not exclude other uses for the firearm so you are not limited, but how would it work if my details on PULSE said "Game shooting/hunting" and in the space for land/gun club details the space is blank.

I hope you can understand my confusion on this.

.
You got the wrong end of the stick EZ. This was replying to your assertion that you can only use two shots in a clay shoot on any range.It depends on the range and its snobbery level,but many will allow three,as will flappers.
Thats what I was told,as I went thru this whole dance with unrestricted/restricted shotguns last year.Which again is a stupid,confusing waste of time for both AGS trying to sort this out in the paperwork and gunowner
Maybe we got our wires crossed somwhere.But ASFIU the game shooting/CP "Good Reason" was interchangeable.EG if you had land to hunt on,you did not need the CP reason.For CP they were happy enough if you could prove attendance at local shoots.
Bearing in mind this was appx 12 months ago,when alot of this was in a heap,and al sorts of weird and wonderful was required ,or not.This has hopefully been sorted out.

BoatMad

Therefore, that leaves shooting clays on private property, which Gardai may not approve of?

The gardai, dont have to be asked, once you are not in a built up area or are at least 60 yards from a public road.

Sparks

Well, (a) the 60 yard rule thing isn't in Irish law; and (b) you set up a clay pigeon range without a quiet chat with your local Super and you're in for a world of fun...

bunny shooter

BoatMad wrote: »

The gardai, dont have to be asked,

Didn't say they did

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

Well, (a) the 60 yard rule thing isn't in Irish law; and

Is that yards,feet or meters??It seems to change with whomever you are asking.

Cass

As best as i can remember its:

18 meters
20 yards
60 feet.

Still there is no mention of these distances in law. They are a "bastardisation" of a British rule that is as old as the hills.