Is a minimum delivery of petrol legal?

Blitzkrieger

I filled up in my local petrol station a few days ago and went in to pay. There was a woman in front of me arguing with the owner, who took my money while saying wearily : "There's a minimum delivery of 10 Euro for cars". I heard herself saying : "I don't have to pay." while I was on my way out the door, and it was clearly an argument the owner has had before.

My question is - does she have to pay? I mean I can't imagine putting less than 10 Euro's worth of petrol into my car, but is it legal to enforce a minimum delivery? And is 10 Euro normal? I can only remember seeing "Minimum delivery 2 litres" on petrol pumps.

irish_goat

If it's clearly stated at the pumps then there's no problem.

If it's only stated once you've already put some petrol into your car and gone to pay there's nothing they can do about it.

It seems like a strange rule, it's not like it costs the petrol station anything more if someone only chooses to say buy €5 of petrol, unless it's a particularly busy station. I can't imagine they'll take you to court if you do pump €5 and just leave the money in front of the cashier in a take it or leave it kind of way.

-Corkie-

I dont think so unless its in certain filling stations. Min delivery is normally 2 litres. My tank for the lawnmower takes 5 litres and I never have a bother paying..

Guy:Incognito

They own the petrol so they set the rules. Complications in law arise with the petrol already beign in the car and the person not being informed of minimums beforehand though.

But they can enforce a rule where you have to fill your tank if they want. No one is forced to use that petrol station.

biko

Which garage is it? Just curious, I usually fill to brim every time.
It doesn't make sense to me to have a €10 rule. What if I'm running dry and only have €6 on me? That's still many litres of fuel.
Perhaps I'm filling a jerry car that only holds five litres?

slimjimmc

Was she paying cash or by credit card? Many retailers have a minimum spend for credit cards otherwise bank charges outweigh any profit. Since cards are not legal tender the retailer doesn't have to accept them as payment for the debt.

The Bishop Basher

I often stick a fiver in at the local station just to get me into one of the cheaper stations near work so i can fill up there. It's a matter of principal. He's the only one in the area and knows it so reflects it in his prices.

Bandara

Only a complete and utter gob****e refuses customers because they are not spending enough money for his liking

The worlds gone mad.

robinph

I'd say it's a "not less than €10 charged to a card" and nothing to do with if you drove in the the petrol station in a car, bike or lawnmower and how much petrol they will sell you. She just needed to have a different method of paying for her items, or buy a bar of chocolate or something to take the price over a tenner.

Minimum delivery of 2 litres is usual, but they have never said anything about the minimum cost at the pump.

Lord Nikon

If all I have to 2euro to put in the tank, then 2euro it is. Your not happy, you can cyphon it yourself.

dlofnep

I normally see minimum delivery 2 litres - but never 10 euro.

PeakOutput

i imagine the reasoning behind it is they make a loss serving you and taking your 5 euro.

something like 85 cent out of every euro you spend on petrol in this country is tax so on that 5 euro the station gets 75 cent, that has to cover the electircity the pump used, and the salary of the person serving you amongst other things i imagine. it is a petty rule but they probably are genuinely making a loss if you only fill up 5 euro

a solution would be to make the price of gas decrease the more you fill up so say 2 euro a litre for the first 10/15 euro 1.75 for the next 5euro then 1.50 and progessively down so that if you fill your tank it costs you the same if not slightly less then it costs you to fill it now

andyseadog

PeakOutput wrote: »

something like 85 cent out of every euro you spend on petrol in this country is tax so on that 5 euro the station gets 75 cent, that has to cover the electircity the pump used, and the salary of the person serving you amongst other things i imagine. it is a petty rule but they probably are genuinely making a loss if you only fill up 5 euro

careful now talking logically like that or we could end up with another "why wont the empty garage fit 4 tyres for 40 euro" thread!

Terrontress

slimjimmc wrote: »

Was she paying cash or by credit card? Many retailers have a minimum spend for credit cards otherwise bank charges outweigh any profit. Since cards are not legal tender the retailer doesn't have to accept them as payment for the debt.

Credit cards are charged on a percentage basis. If they are charged 1.5%, the fee will be 1.5c on a euro and 15c on ten.

One time in Spain a garage refused to take a credit card off me as I didn't have my passport with me. This was in spite of me having supplied my PIN and signing the docket. I told them that they were welcome to take the petrol back if they had a problem. I would do the same in this instance.

robinph

Terrontress wrote: »

Credit cards are charged on a percentage basis. If they are charged 1.5%, the fee will be 1.5c on a euro and 15c on ten.

the %'age is only charged once the transaction is over a tenner, below that it is a fixed rate.

mikemac

I owned a scooter and often spent around €5 on fuel, never once was that an issue.
Not possible for me to fit €10 of fuel in the tank.....though with the way prices are going maybe one day soon lol

I think this might have been an issue with paying by credit card, some places have a €10 minimum spend

bennyx_o

Terrontress wrote: »

Credit cards are charged on a percentage basis. If they are charged 1.5%, the fee will be 1.5c on a euro and 15c on ten.

One time in Spain a garage refused to take a credit card off me as I didn't have my passport with me. This was in spite of me having supplied my PIN and signing the docket. I told them that they were welcome to take the petrol back if they had a problem. I would do the same in this instance.

Slightly OT, but when I lived in Madrid, every shop I used a Visa card in asked for ID. It's a requirement to have ID on you at all times there, the police have the power to ask to see your ID anywhere

PeakOutput

if you read the op it is specifically mentioned that he said the minimum for cars is 10euro

zuroph

PeakOutput wrote: »

if you read the op it is specifically mentioned that he said the minimum for cars is 10euro

possibly misoverheard "the minimum for CARDS is ten euro", which would be a fairly standard rule.

dr.fuzzenstein

zuroph wrote: »

possibly misoverheard "the minimum for CARDS is ten euro", which would be a fairly standard rule.

Actually in that case I'd have to agree, I do not expect my card to be accepted for anything under a tenner.
Minimum fuel purchase of E10?
Never heard of it, cannot be, my money is on cards, not cars.

zuroph

Gov should reduce the dependancy on cash by forcing banks to scrap charges for card transactions, Ireland has a ridiculously high dependency on cash, once Laser dies later this year and visa debit becomes the standard, all shops should be encouraged to upgrade hardware and allow any value transactions through on card.

testicle

Blitzkrieger wrote: »

I filled up in my local petrol station a few days ago and went in to pay. There was a woman in front of me arguing with the owner, who took my money while saying wearily : "There's a minimum delivery of 10 Euro for cars".

Are you sure you didn't mishear a minimum of 10 euro for cards?

CiniO

On my nearest petrol station it says "minimum delivery 2 litres".
But I remember once I went there, and bought 0.5 litre of petrol (I needed some to clean the paints after painting and couldn't get white spirit anywhere). There was no problem. I paid something like 70 cents without any hassle.
.

bailey99

Hammertime,

Can you send me a pm or smthg please on Adverts, need to speak to you.

Thanks

Stinicker

In my Local Tesco filling station they have a sign up in store informing customers that the minimum transaction on Laser or Credit Cards is €10, I am sure they will sell you a small amount of petrol just have the cash ready and not a Credit Card.

How do scooter drivers fare where the most they take is about a gallon of petrol? Or do they just buy a big container and fill up at home?

In Thailand on every street corner you have stores selling litre whiskey bottles of Petrol for scooters and the more enterprising have it in an oil barrel complete with glass measure and pump, just how it was about 85 years ago!

Stealthirl

zuroph wrote: »

Gov should reduce the dependancy on cash by forcing banks to scrap charges for card transactions, Ireland has a ridiculously high dependency on cash, once Laser dies later this year and visa debit becomes the standard, all shops should be encouraged to upgrade hardware and allow any value transactions through on card.

sorry to go OT but what ?

Senna

Stealthirl wrote: »

sorry to go OT but what ?

PTSB have already replaced Lazer with Visa Debit, i assume that other banks are following.

Our man in Havana

All the banks apart from the 2 dinosaurs (AIB and BOI) have abandoned Laser for Visa Debit.

Tea 1000

zuroph wrote: »

Gov should reduce the dependancy on cash by forcing banks to scrap charges for card transactions, Ireland has a ridiculously high dependency on cash, once Laser dies later this year and visa debit becomes the standard, all shops should be encouraged to upgrade hardware and allow any value transactions through on card.

Nothing rediculous about cash.

28064212

PeakOutput wrote: »

i imagine the reasoning behind it is they make a loss serving you and taking your 5 euro.

something like 85 cent out of every euro you spend on petrol in this country is tax so on that 5 euro the station gets 75 cent, that has to cover the electircity the pump used, and the salary of the person serving you amongst other things i imagine. it is a petty rule but they probably are genuinely making a loss if you only fill up 5 euro

That doesn't make any sense. The salary is being paid regardless. The difference between the electricity used to power the pump for 10 x 5 litres or 1 x 50 litres is negligible, if it exists at all. The only cost difference between 10 cars filling up 5 litres and 1 car filling up 50 litres would be in a busy station, where a queue of 10 cars might put off any other people, but even that would be a very rare situation

Blitzkrieger

testicle wrote: »

Are you sure you didn't mishear a minimum of 10 euro for cards?

Definitely said cars. I can remember two occaisions where I got less that 10 Euro worth of petrol there (once on a motorbike and once in a can) but he had to repeat himself so I'm sure.

pippip

Can they enforce this rule under law?

Even if they have a sign up and you only put 5euro in your car and they refuse to accept your Laser/Credit card can they force you to purchase more as you can simply tell them they can take the fuel back.

I don't think they would be in a position to do anything other than put the transaction through.

antodeco

Under contract law, a shopkeeper does not have to return change to you. So for example, if she bought €7 of petrol and only had €10, legally the shop keeper doesnt have to return the €3. It is the duty of the person who is playing for goods, to have the correct amount of money. Anything over is regarded as a "gift" and its the discretion of the shop keeper to return it. Its a weird stipulation within the law, but I doubt any business would last if they kept to this practice. I know that this isint really what the OP was on about, but there are plenty of weird things out there!!

Max Power1

If you have already consumed the goods (read put petrol in the car) then a debt has been incurred.

Legal tender (cash) must be accepted in settlement of a debt. If they refuse, then you may legally leave without paying.

If they subsequently bring you to court (unlikely over a €5 but still) the defense of "legal tender was proffered but refused" is a valid defense and you will be acquitted.


EDIT: As antodeco said above, legal tender must be accepted but there is no obligation to give change

Forest Master

robinph wrote: »

I'd say it's a "not less than €10 charged to a card" and nothing to do with if you drove in the the petrol station in a car, bike or lawnmower and how much petrol they will sell you. She just needed to have a different method of paying for her items, or buy a bar of chocolate or something to take the price over a tenner.

Minimum delivery of 2 litres is usual, but they have never said anything about the minimum cost at the pump.

^^ This. It's more likely that she wanted to pay by Laser or Credit Card, and the minimum transaction on these is usually €10, due to the surcharges the retailer incurs. Minimum petrol delivery is usually 2L - I've never seen signs indicating any more than this.
So it's most likely she bought <€10 of fuel and wanted to pay by card.

Max Power1

Forest Master wrote: »

So it's most likely she bought <€10 of fuel and wanted to pay by card.

+1

thats what I assume. No shop will turn away a transaction via cash, even if its only break even. Better to break even than not have a sale.

Forest Master

Max Power1 wrote: »

+1

thats what I assume. No shop will turn away a transaction via cash, even if its only break even. Better to break even than not have a sale.

Exactly - looks like the OP got his wires crossed and made a whole load of fuss over nothing. People freaking out with "The worlds gone mad" statements, when it's based on duff info.

28064212

Forest Master wrote: »

Exactly - looks like the OP got his wires crossed and made a whole load of fuss over nothing. People freaking out with "The worlds gone mad" statements, when it's based on duff info.

Except for the fact that the OP came back and said that it definitely was "cars", not "cards"

Forest Master

28064212 wrote: »

Except for the fact that the OP came back and said that it definitely was "cars", not "cards"

He's backtracking though to avoid looking stupid.

28064212

Forest Master wrote: »

He's backtracking though to avoid looking stupid.

...What?

Blitzkrieger wrote: »

"There's a minimum delivery of 10 Euro for cars"

Blitzkrieger wrote: »

Definitely said cars

How is that back-tracking exactly?

Forest Master

28064212 wrote: »

...What?


How is that back-tracking exactly?

Apologies - he's not backtracking - he's being stubborn by sticking to his story even though he knows it's wrong now.
He thought it was Cars - then he realised it was actually Cards - and now he's trying to pretend it was DEFINITELY cars. He won't even name the station so it can be verified.

-Chris-

Forest Master wrote: »

He's backtracking though to avoid looking stupid.

Unless you know something the rest of us don't, I think this is a pretty "stupid" statement. Pot, kettle, and all that stuff....

-Chris-

Forest Master wrote: »

He's backtracking though to avoid looking stupid.

Forest Master wrote: »

Apologies - he's not backtracking - he's being stubborn by sticking to his story even though he knows it's wrong now.
He thought it was Cars - then he realised it was actually Cards - and now he's trying to pretend it was DEFINITELY cars. He won't even name the station so it can be verified.

Has he been asked to name the station? Has he actually refused to name it?

I foresee some more backtracking in the near future.... mmmmm?

bladebrew

it must be cards, i have seen signs saying minimum laser card transaction €10,
i used to have a moped with a 7litre tank and never had trouble putting 3,4, or 5 euro in,

Forest Master

-Chris- wrote: »

Has he been asked to name the station?

biko wrote: »

Which garage is it?

Biko asked him on Page 1 and he ignored the request. He should just name the station, so his story can be verified. I still reckon he made a mistake and is now sticking to his guns to avoid looking stupid. And I'll keep believing that as long as he doesn't provide the evidence to verify his story.

-Chris-

OK, and now we re-state the request to name the garage. If he ignores it again, I'd say it's fair for your spidey senses to be tingling.
Until then, I'd say you're being a little harsh.

zuroph

Stealthirl wrote: »

sorry to go OT but what ?

BOI is abandoning laser, its expected that will be the end of it and AIB will follow suit.


There is plenty ridiculous about cash. Ireland uses cash too much. if it was electronic, we wouldnt as taxpayers spend so much on safe cash transit, and there would be less scope for tiger kidnappings. Its an inefficient antiquated way of doing business. the example of someone going into a petrol station, using the atm to take out 20, then paying for their petrol, thats ridiculous, and happens all too often. that €20 note doesnt need to be in the shop at all, and presents all sorts of extra security issues for the shop.

tobsey

As an aside I'm pretty sure the "minimum delivery 2 litres" is purely there so that the pump is accurate. There will be a slight difference between what the clock says and the exact amount of fuel that was pumped, could be more or less. I think the pumps are rated to be accurate to acceptable limits but only after 2 litres have been pumped. I don't think it's the petrol stations doing it to force people to get more petrol.

Our man in Havana

tobsey wrote: »

As an aside I'm pretty sure the "minimum delivery 2 litres" is purely there so that the pump is accurate. There will be a slight difference between what the clock says and the exact amount of fuel that was pumped, could be more or less. I think the pumps are rated to be accurate to acceptable limits but only after 2 litres have been pumped. I don't think it's the petrol stations doing it to force people to get more petrol.

You are correct, here is the explanation from UK trading standards.

All petrol and diesel dispensers have electric pumps and the dispense can occur when this mechanical lever on the nozzle is squeezed. Each delivery commences when the customer lifts the nozzle from its stowage point and has been authorised by the forecourt operator. The customer can then take fuel, including short stops as might occur if the customer wants to completely top up his tank, or get to exactly £20 say. The delivery ceases when the customer returns the nozzle to the dispenser stowage point. We require the dispenser to be accurate for any quantity greater than two litres. For type approval we carry out tests at the minimum delivery and various other quantities, and at different flow rates. We also carry out a flow interruptio >test to ensure that the dispenser is still accurate when the flow stops and starts within a delivery. The limitation of a two litre minimum delivery is mainly an acknowledgement that the dispenser is less accurate with smaller deliveries due to a number of random errors that become insignificant with larger quantities. However I would accept that the uncertainties of our test methods also tend to increase with smaller quantities.

Forest Master

-Chris- wrote: »

OK, and now we re-state the request to name the garage. If he ignores it again, I'd say it's fair for your spidey senses to be tingling.
Until then, I'd say you're being a little harsh.

So shall we assume I'm right then? The OP has been online since; I've seen him browsing this forum since yesterday - yet no naming of this "disgraceful" garage that only allows €10 minimum fuel transactions, because he knows it doesn't exist.

Blitzkrieger

Forest Master wrote: »

Apologies - he's not backtracking - he's being stubborn by sticking to his story even though he knows it's wrong now.
He thought it was Cars - then he realised it was actually Cards - and now he's trying to pretend it was DEFINITELY cars. He won't even name the station so it can be verified.

Hmm. I've looked like an idiot here before and will do again, and getting in a prolonged argument with you over something so trivial would definitely, sorry, DEFINITELY, make me look like one.

I haven't named the station because I don't think it's relevant. I am positive he said cars.

I think the original question of legality is still in a bit of a grey area. I can't see it being a problem - I was just curious.