Top five reasons small businesses dump their PC for a Mac

Talisman

Johnmb wrote: »

He'd be told "no can do, download or live without"

Are you mad? Nobody would be that eager to piss off clients/business partners.

For that very reason Microsoft released free viewers for .docx etc so that people that had Office 2000 and earlier versions didn't need a whole new suite of software just to view a document they have received.

Talisman

kippy wrote: »

Never mind the actual desktop level practicalities (where retraining is a massive cost whatever way you look at it). Many organisations have Active Directory domains, which are linked in with other numerous in house applications, file and print server permissions and indeed most importantly desktop management and settings config. To change over all of this to another network or even desktop OS would require a hell of a lot more work than most would think.

Centrify allows easy integration with Active Directory for Linux, Mac OS X and Unix.

SharePoint is where you would run into problems. To get the full SharePoint experience you need MS Office and Internet Explorer, there are alternatives but if your company has spent big money on developing a SharePoint infrastructure then it's not going to be dropped for the sake of getting on the OS X band wagon.

mickoneill30

I think a lot of replies about OpenOffice are from people that don't know much about business or haven't worked in any major ones.

1: You don't retrain all of your users unless the software is bringing significant features to the company. Training is not free. Telling a user to cop on is not training. Most users will come in with MS Office experience and need minimal training. Sorry about that. That's the way it is.

2: You don't tell customers well "I'm sending in OpenOffice format. Live with it.". Well you can say that and then watch your customers bin your documents.

3: If the new software doesn't work with your existing documents a business is not going to spend time and money to convert the thousands of documents they've created before. And even if they do that what if an external customer sends in a document they've edited in Office 2000 / 2003 that gets messed up in OpenOffice. You adapt for the customer. Not the other way around.

So as a business you have to add up
Cost of software + cost of training + cost of document conversion + potential hassle with documents from external customers

Anyway this is a Mac thread. How did it get onto OpenOffice?

kippy

Talisman wrote: »

Centrify allows easy integration with Active Directory for Linux, Mac OS X and Unix.

SharePoint is where you would run into problems. To get the full SharePoint experience you need MS Office and Internet Explorer, there are alternatives but if your company has spent big money on developing a SharePoint infrastructure then it's not going to be dropped for the sake of getting on the OS X band wagon.

I hadnt heard of that suite - any idea of the costs - just out of interest mind.

Talisman

I enquired about it for a client a few years ago and was quoted €1k per server for the Enterprise version if I recall correctly.

Talisman

Odaise Gaelach wrote: »

The one thing that really turned me off OS X is that a fresh install of Snow Leopard has the firewall turned off by default, with no prompt to say that it was off.

In the interest of ease of use, and better user experience it's best to have it switched off by default - ignorance is bliss.

jester77

What is wrong with using the best tool for the job? Every business is different and every business has different business needs.

Where I work, the finance guys use windows because of software needs, graphics guys use mac because of software needs, ruby guys use mac because of better developments environment, java guys use either windows or linux, operation guys use linux, and so on

This mac vs pc debate is just ridiculous. Just use what serves your needs best.

kippy

jester77 wrote: »

What is wrong with using the best tool for the job? Every business is different and every business has different business needs.

Where I work, the finance guys use windows because of software needs, graphics guys use mac because of software needs, ruby guys use mac because of better developments environment, java guys use either windows or linux, operation guys use linux, and so on

This mac vs pc debate is just ridiculous. Just use what serves your needs best.

Indeed - I agree however the thread title is "Top five reasons small businesses dump their PC for a Mac" and a few of us are pointing out that its not as simple as some would think.

BostonB

True. But in the business environment theres wider issues at play.

Watching a TV show earlier and they showed the offices of the sun or the star, and they were all doing their work, layouts etc on iMac's. I know apple have always been strong in graphics/print, but I'd not seen so many iMacs in an office before.

I haven't seen a Mac anywhere since I was in secondary school, I'm 30 now.

Talisman

BostonB wrote: »

True. But in the business environment theres wider issues at play.

Watching a TV show earlier and they showed the offices of the sun or the star, and they were all doing their work, layouts etc on iMac's. I know apple have always been strong in graphics/print, but I'd not seen so many iMacs in an office before.

Design/Publishing companies and Printers are full of Macs. I had a friend who worked for the Tribune in Baggot Street some years ago. A new IT manager came in and got rid of their Macs in favour of PCs because he was a Windows head. It caused absolute mahem but my mate was delighted because the Macs were just being dumped in a skip outside so he liberated a few of them - they weren't iMacs though.

Odaise Gaelach

Talisman wrote: »

In the interest of ease of use, and better user experience it's best to have it switched off by default - ignorance is bliss.

I don't accept that argument at all. It's like saying that you don't lock your front door because it's easier not to have to put the key in the lock, and no one would ever break into your house anyway.

kippy

RoverJames wrote: »

I haven't seen a Mac anywhere since I was in secondary school, I'm 30 now.

I've worked in a number of companies at this stage (similiar age) and I've only ever seen three - they were in use by the graphic design section of a large enough pensions company (since been outsourced I believe)
Almost every graphic design company, photographer I have dealt with however was using Macs exclusively. As one of the posters said, it does depend on your need.

mickoneill30

RoverJames wrote: »

I haven't seen a Mac anywhere since I was in secondary school, I'm 30 now.

Have you got a TV. If you ever see any laptop on any programme on the TV it's usually a mac. Mac has about 80% market share in TV land.

old_aussie

http://www.romow.com/computer-blog/mac-viruses-and-trojans-becoming-more-prevalent/

02.25.11
A new trojan horse is targeting Mac OS X, and SecureMac has identified multiple variants of the threat. The trojan horse labeled as BlackHoleRAT, created by a hacker calling himself Das_Virus, appears to originate from Germany. Although in early stages this trojan horse is actively being developed.

Read more details about BlackHole RAT

http://www.securemac.com/

Ignorance is bliss for mac owners

Talisman

Odaise Gaelach wrote: »

I don't accept that argument at all. It's like saying that you don't lock your front door because it's easier not to have to put the key in the lock, and no one would ever break into your house anyway.

It's not an argument, Apple sells a life style choice, there's a lot of PR and marketing BS - the "Apple experience" - it's Style over Substance. It looks good and it's "secure". The reason it's "secure" is because it's in a niche that hackers haven't begun to exploit yet.

The reason the firewall is off by default is so that users don't have a bad experience with applications not working - call support and have a conversation along the lines of "Have you got a firewall? If so, turn it off and try again." By having the firewall off - it just works (tm).

jester77

old_aussie wrote: »

http://www.romow.com/computer-blog/mac-viruses-and-trojans-becoming-more-prevalent/

02.25.11
A new trojan horse is targeting Mac OS X, and SecureMac has identified multiple variants of the threat. The trojan horse labeled as BlackHoleRAT, created by a hacker calling himself Das_Virus, appears to originate from Germany. Although in early stages this trojan horse is actively being developed.

Read more details about BlackHole RAT

http://www.securemac.com/

Ignorance is bliss for mac owners

The user still has to install this locally, which means having to enter the admin user and password. Not that easy to get infected unless you are very very naive.

kippy

jester77 wrote: »

The user still has to install this locally, which means having to enter the admin user and password. Not that easy to get infected unless you are very very naive.

Don't underestimate the naivety of the user - ever - even a Mac user.

PeakOutput

kippy wrote: »

Don't underestimate the naivety of the user - ever - even a Mac user.

that is obviously correct but it dosnt matter how many passwords and protections apple puts in place in that case a virus will just be released that requires the user to manually bypass all of them and a few people will do it, that does not mean its an insecure os, it means people are stupid

mickoneill30

jester77 wrote: »

The user still has to install this locally, which means having to enter the admin user and password. Not that easy to get infected unless you are very very naive.

It's a trojan. Wrap it up in an app like bigboobs or justinbieber or whatever (depending on your target) and they'll type in the password. A lot of users are very very naive.

Really for Windows too it's not that hard to stay virus free if you're not very very naive. Install virus checker and dont install crap. It really is that easy. The amount of users that install every bit of crud they download off the internet though is depressing. They're the ones that fall into the naive category.

Mr. Presentable

Who are these small businesses that are dumping their PC for a Mac? What industry are they in?

I have a small business and see no reason for switching to Mac. It would provide no benefit over what I have in place and cost more.

5 PCs with Windows, 1 Server with Linux. No software shortcomings, no viral holocaust, file compatibility with every other company I do business with.

My experience of Mac is very limited - I tried a business machine years ago, and played with a relatives Macbook for an hour. But really from a business point the best tool at the best price dictates for me, and that is a PC with MS Windows for about €500

jester77

kippy wrote: »

Don't underestimate the naivety of the user - ever - even a Mac user.

I don't. But now that Apple has introduced their App store for the desktop, the chances of these type of virus's spreading will greatly reduce. Most users will source their apps from the store and I can't image any renegade apps getting past the Apple approval process.

BostonB

Unix/OSX is more secure than Windows. How specifically UNIX compares with Windows 7 I have no idea. So with the same level of user, Unix I assume will be more secure.

That said business are often full of stupid users, and business security policies come into play there. Power users aren't going to have problem with Windows used properly. But not everyone is a power user.

Talisman

PeakOutput wrote: »

that is obviously correct but it dosnt matter how many passwords and protections apple puts in place in that case a virus will just be released that requires the user to manually bypass all of them and a few people will do it, that does not mean its an insecure os, it means people are stupid

I'm surprised there wasn't a trojan infection developed for OS X in 2009/10. There was a major security hole found in the Java VM in December 2008, Sun had patched their VM immediately but the fix was only applied by Apple in mid 2010 - only 18 months later. The security hole allowed rogue applets to execute code with the privileges of the logged in user without the need for authentication. How many home users only have a single login on their Mac?

Apple have a responsibilty to make the environment secure where possible and not just say it's secure and stick their head in the sand.

Take a look at the Security blurb for OS X. The first paragraph mentions "sandboxing", but the OS doesn't automatically sandbox applications. There is a kernel extension which a developer can chose to call in the code for their application to protect segments of code/processes from being hijacked. There is also no screen capture of the firewall dialog, is that because it's switched off by default?

Johnmb

kippy wrote: »

If it was one that was reliant on customers it wouldnt be a very successful one.


Never mind the actual desktop level practicalities (where retraining is a massive cost whatever way you look at it). Many organisations have Active Directory domains, which are linked in with other numerous in house applications, file and print server permissions and indeed most importantly desktop management and settings config. To change over all of this to another network or even desktop OS would require a hell of a lot more work than most would think.

I think you'll find most small businesses have nowhere near this level of complexity in their systems.

Back on the desktop level, if you want to us macs you are also looking at a significantly higher hardware cost initially.
Then you've got the issue of who is going to do the work, a lot less *ux heads out there than microsoft heads.
Finally you've got the support costs, due to previous point you'll have a more expensive support service.

Now, if you've a new business and you are starting out fresh then this kinda thing may be a bit easier to implement but my point about cost of people to do the work and training costs would still stand.

Training costs are pretty much non-existent. I was more discussing the tangent of using OpenOffice.org rather than MS Office, and anybody who can use MS Office, and has even a little intelligence, can easily do most things on OpenOffice.

kippy

Johnmb wrote: »

I think you'll find most small businesses have nowhere near this level of complexity in their systems.


Training costs are pretty much non-existent. I was more discussing the tangent of using OpenOffice.org rather than MS Office, and anybody who can use MS Office, and has even a little intelligence, can easily do most things on OpenOffice.

Yep, but they do have this thing called cost.
Macs cost considerably more than standard business PC's. Then there is the support side of it. There arent that many Mac supporting companies out there which keeps costs relatively high.
Training costs being non existent is NONSENSE. Of course there are training costs. Your business will suffer if your staff dont know how to use the software.

Johnmb

kippy wrote: »

Yep, but they do have this thing called cost.
Macs cost considerably more than standard business PC's. Then there is the support side of it. There arent that many Mac supporting companies out there which keeps costs relatively high.
Training costs being non existent is NONSENSE. Of course there are training costs. Your business will suffer if your staff dont know how to use the software.

As I said, I'm talking about OpenOffice software. If you know how to use MS Office, you know how to use OpenOffice, no further training necessary in 99.999% of cases, unless it is someone who is just being awkward because their union told them to hold out for a pay rise or something. For what most small businesses use MS Office for, the change would involve allowing a bit more time for staff to get used to the new UI, but that would be the same even if the business had updated to a newer version of MS Office. I would also add that I received no training when I switched OS from Windows to Mac, it was no more difficult for me to get used to than when I had to switch from XP to Vista, but once I got used to it the benefits were well worth the few lost moments where I had to google for information!

BostonB

The likelihood of a union in a small business is very slim, and it has nothing to do with this thread.

My experience even in small business is of people using extensive Work/Excel Macro's and large Access DB's. Often inappropriately but often the business is anchored around it. Its entrenched. Its not some trivial UI issue.

Johnmb

BostonB wrote: »

The likelihood of a union in a small business is very slim, and it has nothing to do with this thread.

So you've no point to make about what was actually being said (i.e. that no further training is needed for most people to switch from MS Office to OpenOffice).

My experience even in small business is of people using extensive Work/Excel Macro's and large Access DB's. Often inappropriately but often the business is anchored around it. Its entrenched. Its not some trivial UI issue.

Then I have to say you have a very limited experience with small business. My guess is that you provide some sort of service that would severely limit the types of small business that would be in contact with you. I come from an auditing/accounting background, and most small businesses that I've been in contact with only had a handful of computers, often with no server, and used to do very basic word processing and spreadsheet tasks (and email). Usually one of them would have the accounting/payroll software (which was usually installed on the "recommendation" of the auditors). Only the programmers would have specialist stuff, and even they would have no need for anything fancy with regard to their usage of MS Office.

BostonB

The point was, If you spent 10~20yrs learning all the functions and macros in excel or access its not trivial to learn something else. Thought that was obvious. Even if you just do basic stuff for 20yrs its may or may not be trivial to change. While it doesn't matter to me what I use, and can switch easily, not everyone else is the same. Many people can't even switch to a different mobile phone.