The Imagine Wimax Challenge

MagicMarker

roy16_1977 wrote: »

You ask if was speaking for everyone, I said more than once for people to research for themselves, so I hope most people would understand from that, I'm not speaking for everyone, the only idiot is you who doesn't understand 'research yourself'

So you're not speaking for everyone, now that wasn't hard to answer was it?

So how do you know your area is great? Just because you think it's great doesn't mean there aren't 20 other people in your area who think it's crap. See, what you're doing is generalising. You shouldn't do that.

edanto

I'm by no means an expert on this, but the WiMax system I have at home is not mobile - there is a receiver fixed to the wall outside my house.

I know that other WiMAx customers, for example those in the city, have a box that they can bring about with them, and plug in anywhere, but my imagine system is not one of those.

From my reading of the techtir page, the wiMax system I have at home is broadband. The speeds are typically, 7Mb down and 512kb up on speedtest.net and pings are about 60ms. I have a Fixed Outdoor aerial.

I'm not trying to be tricky here, just maybe to say that perhaps WiMAx has improved a bit. Certainly for the few months we've had it, it's been relatively troublefree. Only one glitch in service because of a firmware problem which was really the fault of motorola, and a power cycle fixed it.

Oh - and this tip from faceman about changing the beacon interval to 5ms at 192.168.15.1:2000 so that the router can communicate properly with apple ipad/iphone is very valuable as well!

Wcool

PogMoThoin wrote: »

They got funding from Intel, Intel are only interested in mobile WiMax

I would have expected that Intel would not care if it is fixed or mobile, as long as they can sell the chipset. But maybe Intel had hopes to sell the chips for the next generation of cellphones and they didn't pull it off.

Btw I thought Motorola was behind the hardware for Imagine. Again, I don't know, just what I read.

watty

PogMoThoin wrote: »

They got funding from Intel, Intel are only interested in mobile WiMax

Used to be only interested in Mobile WiMax (Chips in every Laptop etc). Fixed WiMax doesn't use Laptop/Netbook chips.

They have given up on putting Mobile WiMax in all laptops etc and now promote LTE, and have bought an LTE chip company and IP. Mobile WiMax is now on life support. Only Clearwire in USA as a major Customer.

watty

edanto wrote: »

I'm by no means an expert on this, but the WiMax system I have at home is not mobile - there is a receiver fixed to the wall outside my house.

I know that other WiMAx customers, for example those in the city, have a box that they can bring about with them, and plug in anywhere, but my imagine system is not one of those.

From my reading of the techtir page, the wiMax system I have at home is broadband. The speeds are typically, 7Mb down and 512kb up on speedtest.net and pings are about 60ms. I have a Fixed Outdoor aerial.

There are Fixed WiMax.

But if your aerial is part of "Imagine WiMax" it's just like eircom's rural wireless phone, which is actually a GSM box on outside of house, or like 3's NBS "booster" boxes, which are just boxes on the Mobile 3G phone system. A Fixed aerial doesn't make "Imagine WiMax" be a Fixed Broadband service unless EVERY connection is like that.

But maybe you have some other WiMax service. If it's simply the "outdoor aerial option" on "Imagine WiMax" for longer range or poor signal, then you service will be rubbish if more customers join near mast.

watty

Wcool wrote: »

What i wonder is: why did Imagine implement a Mobile Wimax system for a fixed wireless problem i.e. their customers are not roaming, so why did Imagine not roll out fixed wireless Wimax?

Is that a cost reason? Or did they hope future phones would be Wimax capable (that would be awesome: you could get your BB on your phone then, well whereever Imagine has its network coverage) and they gambled on the wrong horse as it seems LTE is winning on the Mobile front?

Anyone care to speculate? I just don't get it.

Facts, not Speculation.

• No expensive team of Installers
• Lower cost Modems
• Easy switch over of existing 3.6Ghz Ripwave
• Faster rollout in new areas
• Rollout more areas simultaneously. (Breeze and Metro had to be area by area to reduce costs).
• Lower rollout cost
• Intel in those days wanted world wide Mobile WiMax, rather than LTE or Fixed WiMax.

But wrong decision.

Anyway they only had 3.6GHz, and NO mobile or nomadic system works properly on that.

edanto

Thanks, very interesting to know.

My service is just the outdoor aerial option that you mention. I do hope that other customers don't join nearer the mast degrading my signal. In fact, hopefully the complaints on boards about it will put people off!

By the way, have you ever considered starting your own ISP, you seem to know a great deal about the market!

watty

Give me €1.5Billion and I will will give everyone real Broadband.

1st thing I would do is hire someone good to run it.

Running a successful business is maybe...
50% having the money to start it
about 30% hard work and management expertise
About 10% Knowing the stuff (after all you could hire me)
About 10% having a good idea. (Lots of boring everyday stuff is easier to make money at than clever ideas).

Avoid Food or Clothes related. Most of those go bust in 1st year.

Nollog

roy16_1977 wrote: »

think I said few times now RESEARCH YOURSELF, meaning everybody looks into it themselves i.e research. Enough time wasting now please.

He's an atheist, he has to get you to re-word your post to make himself feel better.
(This is a joke which links to something in the a&a forum).

I have a friend in Mallow area on wimax (non-fixed) who says it's great.

YourNameForMe

I was laughing when I saw JoePie's speed test results because it was exactly what happened to me. I signed up with a low expectation of what I was going to get. I plugged it in and did a speed test. Wow, I'm getting 5Mb when I signed up for 3Mb. Then, once the trial period was over the speeds dropped to under 1Mb.
I am positive this has nothing to do with contention and more to do with QoS parameters. I know this is quite an accusation but this is happening to a lot of people, amazing speeds for the first week and then a steep decline from there on.

I disagree somewhat that Imagine WiMax is equivalent to a 3g solution without the mobility. Imagine WiMax gives greater data rates and is more reliable than 3g. When I use a 3g dongle in my Apartment the signal goes dead every 20 minutes, presumably because of contention causing the cell radius to shrink. Obviously this *may* be a particularly extreme scenario but it happens.

IMHO, the only people happy with Imagine WiMax are people who for whatever reason can't get a decent fixed line connection and have been using crappy 3g dongles for their primary internet connection. I think reliability is key and WiMax gives more reliability than 3g which is why it seems so much better. It definitely is lacking as a proper broadband solution but for many of us its the best we can get at the current time. Also, we're better off with a quick roll out of mobile WiMax than waiting years for fixed WiMax. Seriously, how long more can people without the option of DSL or cable wait for a reasonable internet connection? Madness

JoePie

Well, it's nearly a month later and we're still tearing along. I'll post up another Speedtest when I get home.

watty

It's as they add new customers. Not Shaping.
The capacity isn't much better than 3G/HSPA.

JoePie

Depressing. Twenty minutes ago on my housemate's laptop, it was business as usual. I believe I'll be keeping my eye on this.

JoePie

Would've made more sense to post last night, but whatever.

I was getting different results from Speedtest.net and the speedtest on Magnet's website. The Magnet one was more in line with what I was originally posting up. Also, I was able to play over Xbox Live with no issues last night, pulling host in several games last night. I can only put the discrepancies down to Magnet rigging their speedtest or busy periods for the network in the area.

watty

Xbox live doesn't need a huge speed, it needs good latency.

Biggins

watty wrote: »

Xbox live doesn't need a huge speed, it needs good latency.

True and the latency with this service sucks big time.

lucernarian

What would the differences in outcomes be when a fixed wimax 802.16 service is provided in an area versus a mobile 802.16 wimax service provided in an area where all the receivers are in static locations?

Are there specific protocol differences between the two variants or suchlike?

watty

Yes, there are major protocol differences.

You would not use Mobile WiMax infrastructure with all Fixed Outdoor aerials as it would be a waste of money. Mobile has extra servers and processing to handle client handovers between masts or sectors on a mast. You might get about x8 performance or x8 Capacity (not both) by using all external directional roof top aerials on a Mobile Base station with ZERO self install indoor/nomadic/Mobile. But it would need re-engineering the base stations too. Mobile uses BOTH polarisations, at -45 and +45 for diversity as the client polarisation isn't known. Fixed on 3.6GHz can use one polarisation, 0 or 90, and then use alternate polarisations on same channels on different masts to help reduce intercell interference. This allows extra capacity on Fixed systems that are Near LOS or LOS (which 3GHz and up increasingly is). In fact the "Imagine WiMax" is using licence for FIXED Wireless, and a band totally unsuitable for Indoor / self install/Mobile/Nomadic but only suitable for Fixed Near Line of Sight to Line of Sight.

The virtually unused 2.3GHz band that Eircom camps on is compatible with LTE and Mobile WiMax and is far more suitable for Indoor than current 3.6GHz used. (3G /HSPA is 2.1GHz).

The GSM 1800 is virtually unused and in UK is already used for 3G. It's much much larger than GSM 900 and better than 3G band for Indoor. 3G, LT or Mobile WiMax will work indoors on it.

But Mobile WiMax is dead. Intel has switched to LTE for built in 4G Modem strategy for Notebooks and gadgets. There is unlikely to be any more Mobile WiMax rollouts anywhere. Imagine will have helped convince operators to stick to 2.6GHz and lower (1.8GHz and 2.3GHz good for Cell Size. 800MHz and 900MHz cells too big to have much capacity for Mobile Data) and only roll out LTE for Mobile, and real Fixed Solutions for Fixed Users. The 2.6GHz only good for small dense cells of LTE replacing Public WiFi.

lucernarian

watty wrote:

You would not use Mobile WiMax infrastructure with all Fixed Outdoor aerials as it would be a waste of money. Mobile has extra servers and processing to handle client handovers between masts or sectors on a mast. You might get about x8 performance or x8 Capacity (not both) by using all external directional roof top aerials on a Mobile Base station with ZERO self install indoor/nomadic/Mobile. But it would need re-engineering the base stations too. Mobile uses BOTH polarisations, at -45 and +45 for diversity as the client polarisation isn't known. Fixed on 3.6GHz can use one polarisation, 0 or 90, and then use alternate polarisations on same channels on different masts to help reduce intercell interference. This allows extra capacity on Fixed systems that are Near LOS or LOS (which 3GHz and up increasingly is). In fact the "Imagine WiMax" is using licence for FIXED Wireless, and a band totally unsuitable for Indoor / self install/Mobile/Nomadic but only suitable for Fixed Near Line of Sight to Line of Sight.

I'm just going to quote this bit as the rest of the post was supplementary to that opening paragraph. Could you clarify that this "x8 performance or x8 Capacity (not both) by using all external directional roof top aerials on a Mobile Base station with ZERO self install indoor/nomadic/Mobile" is a comparison to a fixed system with nomadic terminals or a comparison to a mobile wimax network with mobile terminals?

Also, could you clarify why the self-installed are lumped in with the nomadic/mobile terminals in that sentence? This is strictly in relation to the effect on network capacity/performance and not individual user experience.

Is it a foregone conclusion/factually certain at this stage to say that Imagine's wimax network is using only the fixed part of the 802.16 standard?

watty

A system with ANY indoor (i.e. Self Install), Nomadic or Mobile Modems (terminals) is about x8 less capacity/Speed than a purely Roof Top Directional Aerial Fixed Wireless system. It's to do with intercell interference and the fact that self install (i.e. Nomadic/Mobile/Indoor) are essentially low gain omnidirection aerials of unknown polarisation.

"Imagine WiMax" would appear to be pure Mobile WiMax, but on a totally unsuitable band (3.6GHz) and using only per location "FWALA 3.5" licences (These are licences for a fixed area to give Fixed Wireless Point to Multipoint as alternative to DSL).

They have NO mobile licence and no National licence. It's not illegal what they are doing, but's wasteful of the spectrum, doesn't deliver Broadband (no Mobile system can unless there is a Mast in every street, as Contention is uncontrolled) and is essentially to make the rollout fast and cheap at expense of long term performance and Infrastructure.

You can use a "Dongle" modem with built in aerial on any mast. "Imagine WiMax" is definately not a "Fixed WiMax". Many ISPs in Ireland have Fixed WiMax. It's solely roof top/outdoor aerials.

This compares Fixed Wireless mostly with Mobile 3G/HSPA. http://www.radioway.info/comparewireless/ The "Imagine WiMax" is similar to Mobile LTE, except the band it's on is too high (3.6GHz), so unlike 3G there is not the dramatic cell breathing. Other aspects are the same, except actual Mobility is rubbish compared to 3G or any proposed LTE as there are too few masts and the Frequency "Imagine WiMax" uses is far too high (3.6GHz, rather than 1.8GHz, 2.1GHz(existing 3G) or 2.3GHz LTE and Mobile WiMax elsewhere).

"Self install" = Nomadic, which is usually Mobile system with too few masts for usuable Mobile coverage. Means mostly indoor modem/terminal/dongle with mostly low gain omni-directional Aerial. Fixed, Directional or Outdoor units only deployed to improve signal at black spots or edge of coverage, exactly as Three does on 3G/HSPA and Eircom do with Rural phone Terminals (outdoor GSM / 3G boxes with indoor phone socket).

Putting some or many outdoor aerials doesn't make a Mobile system have fixed system capacity.

See also http://www.techtir.ie/comms/fixed-wireless-broadband-better

The two signal strength plots at the end are not well explained.

When National Broadband arrives, they will only be able to sell this product at about €9 a month. It's neither real Broadband, nor proper national mobility as 3G has. Really given the far better coverage and real mobility you are better getting 3G/HSPA than "Imagine WiMax" unless you can get real Broadband.

lucernarian

My thinking is that Imagine would be in breach of their license if they used a technology which was capable of true seamless mobility and could negotiate cell handovers etc.

Thanks for the clarification in the first paragraph. The effects of the self-install CPE directivity would be ameliorated to some extent by the high frequency used, in that for the wimax router to work it must be well-placed to receive a signal from one location and that neighbouring signals from other directions will be relatively attenuated by the walls and layout of the building itself (in comparison to the wanted signal). And vice versa.

Those FWALA licenses... are they still limited and inefficient like they were when they were first used about 6 or 7 years ago?

Oh watty, you mentioned eircom's wireless telephone line product but I thought that was called RurTel and used the 2.3GHz spectrum, not GSM.

watty

They hardly ever instal Rurtel. They squatting on that spectrum.

My thinking is that Imagine would be in breach of their license if they used a technology which was capable of true seamless mobility and could negotiate cell handovers etc.

As long as they don't package it as a voice handset they can get away with it. They are using Mobile WiMax, but the FWALA licence allows ANY technology.

Also they don't have enough masts for much seemless handover and frequency is wrong. FWALA is NOT a national licence. Each circle of notional coverage requires a separate licence.

Digiweb Metro uses FWALA licence too (highly efficient DOCSIS based). All the efficient Fixed WiMax deployments are mostly FWALA. Some might be 2.4GHz or 5.8GHz.

The effects of the self-install CPE directivity would be ameliorated to some extent by the high frequency used, in that for the wimax router to work it must be well-placed to receive a signal from one location and that neighbouring signals from other directions will be relatively attenuated by the walls and layout of the building itself (in comparison to the wanted signal). And vice versa.

I have modelled this for a Nomadic/Self Install service that didn't happen. What you say can be true. Unfortunately it can often be untrue. Only FIXED install (directional outdoor aerials) gives control of contention and best Mast performance/Capacity.

watty

watty wrote: »

They hardly ever instal Rurtel. They squatting on that spectrum.

As long as they don't package it as a voice handset they can get away with it. They are using Mobile WiMax, but the FWALA licence allows ANY technology.

Also they don't have enough masts for much seemless handover and frequency is wrong. FWALA is NOT a national licence. Each circle of notional coverage requires a separate licence.

Digiweb Metro uses FWALA licence too (highly efficient DOCSIS based). All the efficient Fixed WiMax deployments are mostly FWALA. Some might be 2.4GHz or 5.8GHz.



I have modelled this for a Nomadic/Self Install service that didn't happen. What you say can be true. Unfortunately it can often be untrue. Only FIXED install (directional outdoor aerials) gives control of contention and best Mast performance/Capacity.

Are you the founder of ireland offline? Anyhow hope Enda sticks with his proposal and by 2012 90% of homes have fibre

watty

No, I just provide some technical advice to Ireland offline.

December

Curious, Joe how are you finding the 'fair usage' policy that Imagine have?

Me - terrible! Over the past few months my anger is rapidly increasing. :mad: I was first on Imagine DSL line that went through the eircom exchange - so I was technically under eircoms fair usage policy which is 250gb. Which is fine and dandy

However now with Imagine Wimax 'unlimited' not only wont they tell me what their cap is - they say they don't have one (yeah right - how the hell are the notices being triggered then?) - but they say its all dependent on other peoples usage in the area. Not sure what they expect me to do - track everyone elses usage and download accordingly??? And get this I cant even track my usage online with them since their account login thing doesn't even work. /headdesk. I have been told to phone up and ask... yeah cause I'm going to wait in their crappy queues all night for an answer!

(I got throttled today - from ~7mb to 1mb download - but no leway is given even tho account is paid up to date - apparently it'll reset come the 1st April.)

Has anyone else experienced this with imagine? What have you done to resolve it? I'm thinking that downloading during the wee small hours might be one step to avoid being throttled... or maybe looking around for another provider.

If anyone has any suggestions I would be very interested in hearing them (am located in Mallow).

Cheers and sorry for the rant - really peeved XD - and keep the updates coming Joe!

Biggins

December wrote: »

...However now with Imagine Wimax 'unlimited' not only wont they tell me what their cap is - they say they don't have one (yeah right - how the hell are the notices being triggered then?) - but they say its all dependent on other peoples usage in the area. Not sure what they expect me to do - track everyone elses usage and download accordingly??? coming Joe!
...

Depending on what account your signed up to, their limits per moth are 30gig or 50gig OFFICIALLY - but it seems even they don't apply when it comes to Wimax. I get occasional notices from them when I MOST CERTAINLY do not exceed their limits - and I know this because I use not one but two tools to keep an eye on my usage.
I got that excuse "it all depends on usage in the area too" - like I have a fcukin' say over what my neighbors kid is up to for gods sake - they talking a pile of schite - but its Wimax - whats new!

December wrote: »

...And get this I cant even track my usage online with them since their account login thing doesn't even work. /headdesk. I have been told to phone up and ask... yeah cause I'm going to wait in their crappy queues all night for an answer!

As mentioned above, I use two tools to watch my downloads. Hope these might help:

Broadband Download Monitor
Tool that tracks your downloads and alerts you as you near a limit you set.
Very useful, easy to use and read.
Click here

Networx Bandwidth Usage Tool
Handy tool for keeping an eye on your monthly downloads.
Gives great detailed stats and equally easy to install.
Click here

TbbMeter
Alternative broadband monitor tool for watching your amound of downloads.
As with previous two alternatives, easy to install.
Click here

---

It makes no difference to these schits when you download, they pull the plug for many a mental reason when they want to - and it seems alter your speed as and when they see fit. Someone else rings up and complain they are not getting their paid for speed? They drop yours to pass some on to the phone caller! At least for a while till the next call come in from someone else and more people are slyly cut again in an ever going around circle!
They have your credit card details or debit details, they have you signed up - so your screwed in most cases till your contract runs out.

...And the laws in this country allowing these fcuks to get away with this crap are practically non-existent. In fact Irish law as regards internet are another Irish sad, depressing, backward, out of date, joke.

watty

I think the Cap is 30 Gbyte.
Or less if the mast is too busy.

JoePie

No problems with it yet, December. Mostly playing Xbox Live, browsing the web over two laptops and a phone and downloading the a couple of shows a week. Probably between 3GB and 5GB of TV, depending on the schedule that week. The odd bit of music here and there. Definitely haven't been throttled yet anyway. No disruption to service either.

December

Biggins wrote: »

As mentioned above, I use two tools to watch my downloads. Hope these might help:

Thanks Biggins After my rant I checked out some meters too - currently got netmeter at the mo, but will look at the ones you suggested.

And seriously their 'unlimited' limit is 30-50g? Are they insane? Do they know what century theyre doing business in? Jeeze -.- You only have to look at the net available over in Sweden - or even where I used to live (France) to know Ireland is sooooo far behind and we're being screwed.

Wow..just wow. Definitly going to be looking into another service... Contract ends July so not that long to wait.

noellinnane

Just received some major disappointment today, UPC came out to install TV and Broadband, and they weren't able to apparently not available in our house....

So looks like wimax may be our only option, im in goatstown (lower kilmacud road), does any know if theres a mast nearby or the signal quality in the area?

Cheers