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Kilkenny Football - ??
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I'm not a mod, so I wont be telling people to stay on topic. Not my job!0
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Therein lies the problem! I did not suggest sanctions against KK board, as the blame does not lay entirely at their door. From what some people on here have said, the individual footballers attitude is also a problem.Hammer Archer wrote: »Aren't Cavan considering disbanding their hurling team? Where's the thread about that? Also Cavan hurlers and Kilkenny footballers have lost their games in the league by an almost identical amount. I know that they are two completely different sports but I would rate the quality of opponents in Divison 4 in football as far greater than in the same division in hurling.
So many more counties put the same effort into promoting hurling in their county as Kilkenny does with football. The only reason Kilkenny footballer's stand out so much is they do not have an opponent they can possibly match in Ireland whereas all the poor hurling teams have their own league/championship where every team has a chance to win a few games. And you'll need a hell of a lot more than money to garner interest in football amongst Kilkenny people to be honest.
What I highlighted in your post is THE problem.If Kilkenny were crap at hurling, this thread would not exist. To try say this thread is only about KK footballers and has nothing to do with hurling is wrong.
as others have pointed out, I dont get why people get so flustered at Kilkenny not making an effort at football, but seemingly it doesnt matter that there are 15 counties who dont make an effort at hurling.
Kilkenny arent interested in football, so what? football will not die, there are plenty of other counties to keep it alive.
More counties have no interest in hurling. That is a far worse predicament, because hurling as a whole will suffer.
How many more times do I have to say this?? Really? I know their is a serious problem in hurling with regards to the gaps between teams in each Division, but that is for another threadi.e. a Cavan Hurling thread! I'm not here to discuss the state of hurling or football as a game either..
I wanted to discuss with you why it is that an IC football team can be sent out to play, and then be humiliated by some of the worst scores in GAA history? What can be done to stop this? Complete withdrawl? Import talent and coaching experience?0 -
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Great at hurling or bad at hurling,it is still not good enough to have an intercounty team getting hammered to death week in,week out.Even if the KCB never pumped another cent into funding hurling,there still has to be a mindset that there are footballers in the county and fans that want to see Kilkenny be at least competitive.
Being a Dublin fan,I grew up watching the likes of Barney Rock,Brian Stynes,Tommy Carr,Dermot O Leary,Paul Curran,Vinny Murphy,Charlie Redmond and Jason Sherlock put up heroic performances.I can still safely say that if Dublin were in the doldrums all those years and without those players that other footballers would have still encouraged me to pick up the game.Players like Anthony Rainbow,Mickey Linden,Manus Boyle,Maurice FitzGerald and Colm O Rourke who played the game with passion,the way it should be played would have encouraged players to pick up the game.
The real issue,ignoring the skill of hurling in Kilkenny,is the contempt that is shown towards gaelic football.0 -
The real issue,ignoring the skill of hurling in Kilkenny,is the contempt that is shown towards gaelic football.
Of course it is. We know that. There simply is not a sufficient number of people in Kilkenny who care about Gaelic Football. This encompasses adminstrators, players, clubs and the general public. Not enough people care about the current plight of the team or whether there even is a team.
Why is that? The biggest reason is a simple peculiarity of geography. I would imagine that Kilkenny is the only county in Ireland where there is not a single parish where football is the main sport. All the counties bordering Kilkenny have football areas within their borders. However, the areas bordering Kilkenny are almost exclusively hurling areas within those counties.
If you accept that 99.9% of people in Kilkenny care little about Gaelic Football, where do we go from there? This could simply be the end of the discussion and we just do nothing. People in other counties don't want to accept this however. We are told that we will have to be made to like and develop it properly. How do you make sufficient numbers of people care about something they simply don't? Also, why is it so important that Kilkenny improve their level of football? There are already 31 counties playing it to a decent level, why is it so important that Kilkenny do likewise? 31 counties compete for Sam Maguire, 13 for Liam McCarthy. Only 12 compete for both. Why is it that the other 19 never get the same level of criticism aimed at Kilkenny?
This always leads on, as on this thread, to talk about threats and sanctions if Kilkenny don't put a proper effort into football. How is it possible to address this issue without discussing the many counties who only put a token effort into hurling? I am being told to stick to the topic when this is clearly central to the whole issue. Hurling is treated with similar contempt in at least half the country with only a fraction of the comment. Cavan hurlers are losing by bigger margins than the Kilkenny footballers against opposition which, relatively speaking, are far weaker than those the Kilkenny footballers are playing against. Does anyone care? Not as far as I can see.
If anyone chooses to respond to the above, I would appreciate it if you could respond to the substantive issue and not just selectively quote individual lines to avoid the main issue.0 -
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Of course it is. We know that. There simply is not a sufficient number of people in Kilkenny who care about Gaelic Football. This encompasses adminstrators, players, clubs and the general public. Not enough people care about the current plight of the team or whether there even is a team.
Why is that? The biggest reason is a simple peculiarity of geography. I would imagine that Kilkenny is the only county in Ireland where there is not a single parish where football is the main sport. All the counties bordering Kilkenny have football areas within their borders. However, the areas bordering Kilkenny are almost exclusively hurling areas within those counties.
If you accept that 99.9% of people in Kilkenny care little about Gaelic Football, where do we go from there? This could simply be the end of the discussion and we just do nothing. People in other counties don't want to accept this however. We are told that we will have to be made to like and develop it properly. How do you make sufficient numbers of people care about something they simply don't? Also, why is it so important that Kilkenny improve their level of football? There are already 31 counties playing it to a decent level, why is it so important that Kilkenny do likewise? 31 counties compete for Sam Maguire, 13 for Liam McCarthy. Only 12 compete for both. Why is it that the other 19 never get the same level of criticism aimed at Kilkenny?
This always leads on, as on this thread, to talk about threats and sanctions if Kilkenny don't put a proper effort into football. How is it possible to address this issue without discussing the many counties who only put a token effort into hurling? I am being told to stick to the topic when this is clearly central to the whole issue. Hurling is treated with similar contempt in at least half the country with only a fraction of the comment. Cavan hurlers are losing by bigger margins than the Kilkenny footballers against opposition which, relatively speaking, are far weaker than those the Kilkenny footballers are playing against. Does anyone care? Not as far as I can see.
If anyone chooses to respond to the above, I would appreciate it if you could respond to the substantive issue and not just selectively quote individual lines to avoid the main issue.
What evidence have you to suggest that 99.9% of people don't care? I bet there is a sizeable number of people who care, and would show up to matches if they could expect a performance. I wouldn't pay €75 for KK football season ticket, where your only hope would be too see the team not lose by more than 10 points. Nobody here is saying people should be forced into football. That is ridiculous, and your simply putting words into our mouths. We are saying the people who care about football in KK should be treated with respect, as opposed to being given a team that can't register a single point against Leitrim. Yes it is the same with the Cavan hurlers, but this discussion is not about them. Their football team is struggling badly too, so it is a development, coaching and training problem in the county imo.
The reason those counties don't get the same level of criticism, is because they are struggling in both codes at the best of times. KK have already shown they have a recipe for success at hurling i.e. development squads, coaching structure etc Why not apply that same structure to football?0 -
What evidence have you to suggest that 99.9% of people don't care? I bet there is a sizeable number of people who care, and would show up to matches if they could expect a performance. I wouldn't pay €75 for KK football season ticket, where your only hope would be too see the team not lose by more than 10 points. Nobody here is saying people should be forced into football. That is ridiculous, and your simply putting words into our mouths. We are saying the people who care about football in KK should be treated with respect, as opposed to being given a team that can't register a single point against Leitrim. Yes it is the same with the Cavan hurlers, but this discussion is not about them. Their football team is struggling badly too, so it is a development, coaching and training problem in the county imo.
The reason those counties don't get the same level of criticism, is because they are struggling in both codes at the best of times. KK have already shown they have a recipe for success at hurling i.e. development squads, coaching structure etc Why not apply that same structure to football?
I live in Kilkenny so I think I know it a lot better than you. It may not be 99.9% but it genuinely would not be far short. You may find that hard to believe but there's not much I can do about that.
Look at the few truly dual counties. They all have areas which are predominantly hurling and predominantly football. Even counties like Laois & Offaly (smaller than Kilkenny) have completely separate areas within the county where one sport dominates. There are very few truly dual clubs in the country outside the larger towns and cities of the few dual counties. Kilkenny simply does not have this. Every parish in the county has a hurling team with aspirations of success at whatever level they play at. Football simply doesn't figure. Maybe that's wrong, maybe it isn't but that's just how it is.
Sure Kilkenny could probably make a better effort but the problem is they simply don't have enough players to draw from who really care. Like it or not, that is a fact.
If I said that Kilkenny should simply withdraw and forget about football, would you leave it at that and say end of discussion? Maybe but I'm sure there would be lots of others who wouldn't and would simply jump in talking about sanctions, etc. That's why I have to bring the neglect of hurling in half the country into the discussion. It is quite simply wrong to say that is a separate issue. Whatever you may think, many of the comments here are tantamount to suggesting that several areas in Kilkenny should be forced to concentrate on football rather than hurling. That being the case, the 19 counties who do not contest the Liam McCarthy are integral to this issue.0 -
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Maybe not forced but in the very second post on this thread which eroo also thanked i might add,had in if if some of the talented hurlers that dont make it on to the senior panel be asked to players for the footballers.How do you people know they weren't asked and turned it down.Source?
Also why should the players who want to play football for there county be denied?
They might be out of there depth but they want to play the game and that's the level they have to play.0 -
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Maybe not forced but in the very second post on this thread which eroo also thanked i might add,had in if if some of the talented hurlers that dont make it on to the senior panel be asked to players for the footballers.How do you people know they weren't asked and turned it down.
Also why should the players who want to play football for there county be denied?
They might be out of there depth but they want to play the game and that's the level they have to play.
Wow - that's an irrefutable source alright;)
There is some sense in the rest of your post...... somewhere.0 -
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Maybe not forced but in the very second post on this thread which eroo also thanked i might add,had in if if some of the talented hurlers that dont make it on to the senior panel be asked to players for the footballers.How do you people know they weren't asked and turned it down.
Also why should the players who want to play football for there county be denied?
They might be out of there depth but they want to play the game and that's the level they have to play.
Yourself and a few others are great at generlisations here.
That point regarding hurlers who never make it onto panel be asked to play for their county in football, is only one of several points made in that post. I thanked that post because I agreed with it's primary points i.e. getting outside expertise and KK board doing something about the problem.
To think that twice now someone has highlighted the fact I thanked a post as if it somehow had a bearing on my opinion is laughable.
Stop going round in circles saying everyone else is doing the same and neglecting one of the codes. That may be true, but nowhere near as shameful as the KK football team.
I may as well address this once and for all..
The Cavan hurlers are atrocious because there are only 8 clubs who play hurling, with Mullahoran having won for the last 21 years!!! The Cavan CB and the GAA's hurling board have a lot to answer for and serious work is needed. It is not surprising Cavan get hammered. It's essentially an IC team made up of the one club(almost). The problems there are obvious. The problems in hurling are obvious, and attempts to solve them are being made i.e. promotion of the game, training coaches etc
Kilkenny has 31 clubs that play football*. So to say there is no talent there is obviously not true. The truth is that football has been neglected by the CB, whose solution as of last week is to try and attract more players. How? They don't seem to have any plan at all. KK have the clubs and players to set up a developmental structure for coaching, training players and promoting the game.
So the reason KK football is being singled out is because there are no attempts being made to solve these problems, as opposed to hurling.
*According to gaainfo.com0 -
Kilkenny has 31 clubs that play football*. So to say there is no talent there is obviously not true. The truth is that football has been neglected by the CB, whose solution as of last week is to try and attract more players. How? They don't seem to have any plan at all. KK have the clubs and players to set up a developmental structure for coaching, training players and promoting the game.
So the reason KK football is being singled out is because there are no attempts being made to solve these problems, as opposed to hurling.
*According to gaainfo.com
Interesting, I saw this in my email inbox and I was just about to ask what your source was
Honestly the only clubs I heard of that are really interested in it would be the ones up in the NE near the Carlow and Laois borders, Railway and Muckalee are the only ones I can think of and I think its fair to say they are pretty small clubs.0 -
Yourself and a few others are great at generlisations here.
That point regarding hurlers who never make it onto panel be asked to play for their county in football, is only one of several points made in that post. I thanked that post because I agreed with it's primary points i.e. getting outside expertise and KK board doing something about the problem.
To think that twice now someone has highlighted the fact I thanked a post as if it somehow had a bearing on my opinion is laughable.
Stop going round in circles saying everyone else is doing the same and neglecting one of the codes. That may be true, but nowhere near as shameful as the KK football team.
I may as well address this once and for all..
The Cavan hurlers are atrocious because there are only 8 clubs who play hurling, with Mullahoran having won for the last 21 years!!! The Cavan CB and the GAA's hurling board have a lot to answer for and serious work is needed. It is not surprising Cavan get hammered. It's essentially an IC team made up of the one club(almost). The problems there are obvious. The problems in hurling are obvious, and attempts to solve them are being made i.e. promotion of the game, training coaches etc
Kilkenny has 31 clubs that play football*. So to say there is no talent there is obviously not true. The truth is that football has been neglected by the CB, whose solution as of last week is to try and attract more players. How? They don't seem to have any plan at all. KK have the clubs and players to set up a developmental structure for coaching, training players and promoting the game.
So the reason KK football is being singled out is because there are no attempts being made to solve these problems, as opposed to hurling.
*According to gaainfo.com
The Cavan hurlers have been competitive within Division 4 up to this year, over the last number of years.
They beat Leitrim and South Down and losing narrowly to Fermanagh and Longford,only Monaghan beat them well.
This years set-up is a complete shambles,and a number of their best players arent playing,and is not a proper reflection as to the ability of the Cavan Hurlers.
Hurling being such a skillful game needs to be mastered from a young age,
and their are numerous underage hurling clubs being set up, Baileborough,Cootehill, Ramor/Munnterconnacht etc, work is being done,it will take 8-10 years before,it bears fruit,im afraid.
Finally to add,the incompetency of the Cavan County Board over the last decade is not isolated to the hurlers.
Our Footballers have underacheived greatly in that time period aswell.
As for Kilkenny,
Kilkenny have won,what is it, 2 NFL games since they have came back into Senior Inter County Football,both against London?? (someone correct me if im wrong)
It doesnt take much to be competitive in Gaelic Football,even at IC level.
Geting a team aerobically and physically fit and being organised with a game-plan would stop those huge beatings,even if the Cats didnt win a game.0 -
Eroo and shamobuc the question i'd ask you is it an amateur sport?,12 senior football teams as well as 12 senior hurling teams in kilkenny.
Amalgamating clubs.
What basically you want to do is stop some people in kilkenny from playing football for their parish to try and create a football elite of a sort
but that is what it boils down to.
Could they also amalgamate senior hurling clubs then to make the senior hurlers better to at club level eg. o' loughlin gaels and ballyhale shamrocks maybe.0 -
Yourself and a few others are great at generlisations here.
That point regarding hurlers who never make it onto panel be asked to play for their county in football, is only one of several points made in that post. I thanked that post because I agreed with it's primary points i.e. getting outside expertise and KK board doing something about the problem.
To think that twice now someone has highlighted the fact I thanked a post as if it somehow had a bearing on my opinion is laughable.
Stop going round in circles saying everyone else is doing the same and neglecting one of the codes. That may be true, but nowhere near as shameful as the KK football team.
I may as well address this once and for all..
The Cavan hurlers are atrocious because there are only 8 clubs who play hurling, with Mullahoran having won for the last 21 years!!! The Cavan CB and the GAA's hurling board have a lot to answer for and serious work is needed. It is not surprising Cavan get hammered. It's essentially an IC team made up of the one club(almost). The problems there are obvious. The problems in hurling are obvious, and attempts to solve them are being made i.e. promotion of the game, training coaches etc
Kilkenny has 31 clubs that play football*. So to say there is no talent there is obviously not true. The truth is that football has been neglected by the CB, whose solution as of last week is to try and attract more players. How? They don't seem to have any plan at all. KK have the clubs and players to set up a developmental structure for coaching, training players and promoting the game.
So the reason KK football is being singled out is because there are no attempts being made to solve these problems, as opposed to hurling.
*According to gaainfo.com
After all these pages of discussion, how can you still be getting it so wrong? Half of the country is neglecting hurling at least as badly as Kilkenny is neglecting football. The reason they get away with very little comment is they have each other to play against and so it doesn't stand out. The standard of Div 3 & Div 4 football is immeasurably higher than Div 3 & Div 4 hurling, Kilkenny footballers being the only exception.
Kilkenny may have 31 football clubs. In reality, these are all hurling clubs which play football matches a few times a year. The number of club training sessions involving a football would be negligible. What mostly happens is that the same players who play hurling tog out a handful of times a year to play football.
How can I get into your head the lack of interest in gaelic football in Kilkenny? It is at least the same level as the lack of interest in hurling in these other counties. Will you take my word for that as a Kilkenny man and stop quoting meaningless statistics from websites about number of clubs, etc? If you will take my word on this and also accept that people can't be forced to play or like a sport which they simply don't, we've reached a bit of an impasse.
You said you're from Clare so you will know far more about that county than me. From my limited knowledge, I've never heard very much from the Sixmilebridge or Clarecastle footballers. Maybe there are better examples you can think of. Now imagine putting together the Clare inter-county football team when every club in the county has the same profile as regards hurling/football as those clubs. Last year, the Clare Co Champions made it to the Club All Ireland Final. This was a phenomenal achievement and Kilkenny simply doesn't have anything like this in any club.
Finally, I think it is reasonable for anyone to believe that when you thank another poster, you are agreeing with the views they have expressed. Why else would you thank them? I notice you haven't thanked me yet.0 -
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Is it an amateur sport?:rolleyes:Eroo and shamobuc the question i'd ask you is it an amateur sport?,12 senior football teams as well as 12 senior hurling teams in kilkenny.
Amalgamating clubs.
What basically you want to do is stop some people in kilkenny from playing football for their parish to try and create a football elite of a sort
but that is what it boils down to.
Could they also amalgamate senior hurling clubs then to make the senior hurlers better to at club level eg. o' loughlin gaels and ballyhale shamrocks maybe.
I want to stop people playing football for their parish? Re read the post boy!!!
If there was an issue with football with the clubs and an amalgamation of some of them ( because of numbers/interest) would help... then yes, where needed ( if needed). If there was no issue, then of course there would be no need to even think of amalgamation. Playing for your club and parish is of course a huge part of the GAA - why change it? - if the numbers/interest are not in a particular parish/club then they would not be playing for their parish.....would they? If the numbers/interest IS there then play away boy!!!! and WITH the aid of a proper development programme by the county board ( coaching, under age, training methods, promotions etc) the numbers/interest level AND ability level will increase. The knock on effect would be an Inter County team that would not be the laughing stock of the GAA and the topic on a discussion thread on boards.ie !
Is there a problem with the hurling in OLG and Shamrocks? News to me:rolleyes:0 -
The knock on effect would be an Inter County team that would not be the laughing stock of the GAA and the topic on a discussion thread on boards.ie !
:rolleyes:
Laughing stock of the Gaelic Football world, perhaps. Laughing stock of the GAA, only if half the country are complete hypocrites.0 -
After all these pages of discussion, how can you still be getting it so wrong? Half of the country is neglecting hurling at least as badly as Kilkenny is neglecting football. The reason they get away with very little comment is they have each other to play against and so it doesn't stand out. The standard of Div 3 & Div 4 football is immeasurably higher than Div 3 & Div 4 hurling, Kilkenny footballers being the only exception.
Kilkenny may have 31 football clubs. In reality, these are all hurling clubs which play football matches a few times a year. The number of club training sessions involving a football would be negligible. What mostly happens is that the same players who play hurling tog out a handful of times a year to play football.
How can I get into your head the lack of interest in gaelic football in Kilkenny? It is at least the same level as the lack of interest in hurling in these other counties. Will you take my word for that as a Kilkenny man and stop quoting meaningless statistics from websites about number of clubs, etc? If you will take my word on this and also accept that people can't be forced to play or like a sport which they simply don't, we've reached a bit of an impasse.
You said you're from Clare so you will know far more about that county than me. From my limited knowledge, I've never heard very much from the Sixmilebridge or Clarecastle footballers. Maybe there are better examples you can think of. Now imagine putting together the Clare inter-county football team when every club in the county has the same profile as regards hurling/football as those clubs. Last year, the Clare Co Champions made it to the Club All Ireland Final. This was a phenomenal achievement and Kilkenny simply doesn't have anything like this in any club.
Finally, I think it is reasonable for anyone to believe that when you thank another poster, you are agreeing with the views they have expressed. Why else would you thank them? I notice you haven't thanked me yet.
Clare football does not suffer the same horrific situation as KK football. Efforts have been stepped up to improve the situation. Just because I thank a post does not mean I agree with every word, merely one point or more. I explained this already... So back to the discussion..
Do you not understand that we will never get to a stage where every team in the NHL will be on the same level as each other? That is what you seem to be complaining about. The reason there are Div 3a, 3b and 4 is solely because there are weaker counties. If they want to improve, they seek promotion. So they have the ability to work their way up. Kerry have shown it is possible.
It is the same in football.. except for Kilkenny. They are the only team in the GAA who are being constantly annihilated and always have been historically. By throwing out the argument about lack of development of hurling in other counties(who, may I add, still perform better than KK does in football) you are simply dodging the problem.
There will always be weaker counties in both codes. Fact. I'm not saying KK should be contending for a Leinster title or an All Ireland. They should be doing what every other weaker county in both codes are doing.. trying to work their way up in the League.
I understand and fully agree with you about the situation in hurling Nationally. But the weaker teams can still compete against each other and be competitive e.g. Kerry and Westmeath in Christy Ring Cup. The reason KK football is being highlighted above all other problems in both codes is because they are not competitive at all. How many more times can I explain this?
You have offered only excuses to date and no solutions. Problems in hurling are no reasons for KK's performance in football. So as per the aim of the thread.. what do you think should be done about the KK football team?0 -
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Laughing stock of the Gaelic Football world, perhaps. Laughing stock of the GAA, only if half the country are complete hypocrites.
Pedantic much?
Does half the country have a team that lose by as much as the KK football team lose every game by, continuously- for 3 or so years???????0 -
Pedantic much?
Does half the country have a team that lose by as much as the KK football team lose every game by, continuously- for 3 or so years???????
I've explained this so many times that I don't know how to phrase it differently. Is there another language we could converse in that you might understand better? There is only one true minnow in football, there are at least 16 in hurling. Get any of the Div 4 hurling teams to play against a Div 1 or 2 hurling team every week and see what happens. Longford footballers beat Mayo and narrowly lost to Down (both Div 1) in last year's Championship. Yet they remain a Div 4 team. Is there a Div 4 hurling team that could say the same?????????????????????????0 -
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I've explained this so many times that I don't know how to phrase it differently. Is there another language we could converse in that you might understand better? There is only one true minnow in football, there are at least 16 in hurling. Get any of the Div 4 hurling teams to play against a Div 1 or 2 hurling team every week and see what happens. Longford footballers beat Mayo and narrowly lost to Down (both Div 1) in last year's Championship. Yet they remain a Div 4 team. Is there a Div 4 hurling team that could say the same?????????????????????????
I don't get it!
Hurling is a far more skillfull sport than football. Reaching the 'top table' is VERY VERY hard, that's the reason only a few counties have won the hurling AI in the last 20 or 30 years, whereas it is far easier to develop and progress in the football leagues - that is the nature of the game of football. How many different teams won the football AI in the last 20 or 30 years - compare the two! The 16 'minnows' are competitive AT THEIR LEVEL. Breaking through the barriers from div 4 to 3 to 2 to 1 is exceptionally difficult. That is the nature of the game of hurling.
But at least they are competitive.
KK footballers are not competitive at the lowest level! Actually that's being way too generous. KK footballers are miles and miles and a few kilometres from even being remotely competitive in the Lowest league of football. It would not take much to make them more competitive, maybe a county board willing to develop the game would do!
Develop the game - does not mean lowering the standard of hurling
- does not mean making a player choose between the two games - it is actually possible to play both, other counties do it. A club hurler can also be a club footballer. An intercounty hurler does not have to be, but can be a club footballer. An intercounty hurler can be an intercounty footballer. A club hurler can be an intercounty footballer. etc0 -
They are the only team in the GAA who are being constantly annihilated and always have been historically.
you are just answering your own question there. there has never been any interest in football there, and never will. in the other 'weak' football counties around at the moment, they are still mainly a football orientated county whose prioority is football.
Kilkenny should be better, and the county board should do something to promote it, but what is the point in pontificating about it? they are an unbelievable hurling team, and have set a new standard in a greatly skilful game. the fact that they are the only team that cant compete at football doesnt really bother me.0 -
I don't get it!
Hurling is a far more skillfull sport than football. Reaching the 'top table' is VERY VERY hard, that's the reason only a few counties have won the hurling AI in the last 20 or 30 years, whereas it is far easier to develop and progress in the football leagues - that is the nature of the game of football. How many different teams won the football AI in the last 20 or 30 years - compare the two! The 16 'minnows' are competitive AT THEIR LEVEL. Breaking through the barriers from div 4 to 3 to 2 to 1 is exceptionally difficult. That is the nature of the game of hurling.
But at least they are competitive.
KK footballers are not competitive at the lowest level! Actually that's being way too generous. KK footballers are miles and miles and a few kilometres from even being remotely competitive in the Lowest league of football. It would not take much to make them more competitive, maybe a county board willing to develop the game would do!
Develop the game - does not mean lowering the standard of hurling
- does not mean making a player choose between the two games - it is actually possible to play both, other counties do it. A club hurler can also be a club footballer. An intercounty hurler does not have to be, but can be a club footballer. An intercounty hurler can be an intercounty footballer. A club hurler can be an intercounty footballer. etc
As far as you're concerned, I give up. The 16 lowest hurling teams are competitive against each other. There is no-one at Kilkenny's level in football to play against as all the other 31 counties are competitive against each other also. Outside of about 6 or 7 teams, they are all almost interchangeable between divisions. Therefore Kilkenny have no-one to play against. How hard is that for you to understand?????????????0 -
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As far as you're concerned, I give up. The 16 lowest hurling teams are competitive against each other. There is no-one at Kilkenny's level in football to play against as all the other 31 counties are competitive against each other also. Outside of about 6 or 7 teams, they are all almost interchangeable between divisions. Therefore Kilkenny have no-one to play against. How hard is that for you to understand?????????????
Ah please don't, I'm only warming up;)
Let me get this straight - in hurling EVERY team in Ireland competitive, the top table, some just below it and about 16 in the lower group!
- in football EVERY team in Ireland is competitive EXCEPT KK!
Given that hurling is by far the more skilfull, more complex etc of the two there is no reason why KK should not be competitive, even if it is at the lowest level, afterall every county is competitive ( at some level) in both codes aren't they? Except Kk footballers of course;)
I cannot fathom why??????????????0 -
Clare football does not suffer the same horrific situation as KK football. Efforts have been stepped up to improve the situation. Just because I thank a post does not mean I agree with every word, merely one point or more. I explained this already... So back to the discussion..
Do you not understand that we will never get to a stage where every team in the NHL will be on the same level as each other? That is what you seem to be complaining about. The reason there are Div 3a, 3b and 4 is solely because there are weaker counties. If they want to improve, they seek promotion. So they have the ability to work their way up. Kerry have shown it is possible.
It is the same in football.. except for Kilkenny. They are the only team in the GAA who are being constantly annihilated and always have been historically. By throwing out the argument about lack of development of hurling in other counties(who, may I add, still perform better than KK does in football) you are simply dodging the problem.
There will always be weaker counties in both codes. Fact. I'm not saying KK should be contending for a Leinster title or an All Ireland. They should be doing what every other weaker county in both codes are doing.. trying to work their way up in the League.
I understand and fully agree with you about the situation in hurling Nationally. But the weaker teams can still compete against each other and be competitive e.g. Kerry and Westmeath in Christy Ring Cup. The reason KK football is being highlighted above all other problems in both codes is because they are not competitive at all. How many more times can I explain this?
You have offered only excuses to date and no solutions. Problems in hurling are no reasons for KK's performance in football. So as per the aim of the thread.. what do you think should be done about the KK football team?
Eroo, at this stage I feel as though I'm dealing with a WUM here. In all my replies to you, I have answered in good faith and dealt with every issue you've raised. Despite this, your most recent reply shows that you have understood precisely NOTHING I have said. Once again I will answer your post point by point. If you choose to respond again, please have the decency to do likewise and don't just ignore the points you are unable to answer.
Regarding Clare football, of course it is not the same as Kilkenny football, that's obvious. Your Co Champions just played in the Senior All Ireland final last year. My question, which you failed to answer, was what do Sixmilebridge or Clarecastle (or any other hurling clubs) contribute to the Clare football team? Clare has a football area of the county which I would presume forms the backbone of the county team. As I've explained, Kilkenny doesn't have this as all parts of the county are hurling areas. You've already said you didn't want to force anyone to play football so what exactly do you want?
Regarding your second paragraph, I agree with every word as I have all through this thread. All NHL teams will never be at the same level, the lower divisions are for the weaker counties so they can play competitive games, etc, and it provides them with the opportunity to move up the ranks over time if they succeed in developing the game. 100% agreed.
Third paragraph, I couldn't possibly disagree more. The situation in football is utterly different. Look at some of the teams in Div 4 at present. Roscommon (Connacht Champions), Longford (beat Mayo & narrowly lost to Down, both Div 1 teams, in last year's Championship), Fermanagh (contenders to win the Ulster Championship for the past few years) & Wicklow (beat Down in the Championship 2 years ago). These are all serious teams with aspirations of causing an upset against Div 1 teams. To suggest that this situation is anyway similar to the lower levels of hurling is nothing short of dishonest. These are the sort of teams Kilkenny have to play and it is impossible for them to develop when there is no lower level for them to play against.
Fourth paragraph, your "fact" is incorrect. There are no truly weak counties in football other than Kilkenny for the reasons already outlined.
Fifth paragraph, more of the same. Christy Ring Cup, etc, completely irrelevant. Kilkenny can't be competitive because there is nobody there to be competitive against for the reasons already outlined!!!
Sixth paragraph-I haven't offered a single excuse for anything in any of my replies. I have simply presented you with the facts. I don't have a solution. I've already explained to you that very, very few people in Kilkenny care about football. That's not going to change. You posed the question in your original post as to whether Kilkenny should just withdraw. I think they probably should. I ask you again, is that acceptable to you and if not, why not? Despite what you may think, there are not "loads" of footballers in Kilkenny who are feeling let down by the County Board and who dream of playing football for Kilkenny. As you said above about the lower level hurling teams, that is simply never going to happen.
Finally, this whole discussion reminds me of a conversation I had with a Monaghan man at a wedding a few years ago. He was in his 50's and he was an authority on Monaghan football going back decades. From what I could gather, there was hardly a player who wore the county jersey in the past 50 years that he was not familiar with. When he found out I was from Kilkenny he commiserated with me and said what a pity it was that we couldn't put in more of an effort in football. I pointed out that we're not too bad at the hurling but he just brushed that off and said again how sad it was that we couldn't improve at football. I then asked him about the Monaghan hurlers and he just looked at me blankly. He was unable to tell me how they were doing or even what division they were in. Some people seem to see hurling as an exotic game that you look at a couple of times a year on tv and then forget about. Football is the "real" game. Is it so hard for anyone to understand that, in Kilkenny, the complete opposite is the case? Our county has little interest in football and is the only county in Ireland to feel that way to such an extent. Therefore we have no opposition to meet at our own level unlike the 16 or so counties who feel the same way about hurling.0 -
Ah please don't, I'm only warming up;)
Let me get this straight - in hurling EVERY team in Ireland competitive, the top table, some just below it and about 16 in the lower group!
- in football EVERY team in Ireland is competitive EXCEPT KK!
Given that hurling is by far the more skilfull, more complex etc of the two there is no reason why KK should not be competitive, even if it is at the lowest level, afterall every county is competitive ( at some level) in both codes aren't they? Except Kk footballers of course;)
I cannot fathom why??????????????
In baby language, for you to understand:
Kilkenny footballers V Any Div 1 football team = complete massacre
Kilkenny hurlers V Any Div 4 hurling team = complete massacre
Any Div 1 hurling team V Any Div 4 hurling team = complete massacre
Any Div 1 football team V Any Div 4 football team(other than Kilkenny) = very competitive with the odd win for the Div 4 team
Conclusion:
The gap between the divisions in football is very small and any talk of "levels" is complete nonsense. Kilkenny are the only truly lower level football team. In hurling, there are genuine levels and so easy to be competitive at each level.
Reason:
Unlike every other county, Kilkenny has no football area. Almost every player on the county team is playing his secondary sport. Very few people in Kilkenny care whether we have a team or not as there is nobody for us to play against.
QED0 -
Eroo, at this stage I feel as though I'm dealing with a WUM here. In all my replies to you, I have answered in good faith and dealt with every issue you've raised. Despite this, your most recent reply shows that you have understood precisely NOTHING I have said. Once again I will answer your post point by point. If you choose to respond again, please have the decency to do likewise and don't just ignore the points you are unable to answer.
I don't feel I have ignored any of your points. What in the name of god is a WUM?! I have understood it all, and have agreed/disagreed. Your attitude in your posts is stand offish.. surely you can just engage in a friendly
discussion?
Regarding Clare football, of course it is not the same as Kilkenny football, that's obvious. Your Co Champions just played in the Senior All Ireland final last year. My question, which you failed to answer, was what do Sixmilebridge or Clarecastle (or any other hurling clubs) contribute to the Clare football team? Clare has a football area of the county which I would presume forms the backbone of the county team. As I've explained, Kilkenny doesn't have this as all parts of the county are hurling areas. You've already said you didn't want to force anyone to play football so what exactly do you want?
You are correct, we do have what is considered a 'football area'. KK, like ourselves, is a hurling County but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have a football team playing for the County we all love. No I don't want to see anyone forced to play a sport.. but if they were introduced and encouraged at youth level they may want to play the sport!
Regarding your second paragraph, I agree with every word as I have all through this thread. All NHL teams will never be at the same level, the lower divisions are for the weaker counties so they can play competitive games, etc, and it provides them with the opportunity to move up the ranks over time if they succeed in developing the game. 100% agreed.
Third paragraph, I couldn't possibly disagree more. The situation in football is utterly different. Look at some of the teams in Div 4 at present. Roscommon (Connacht Champions), Longford (beat Mayo & narrowly lost to Down, both Div 1 teams, in last year's Championship), Fermanagh (contenders to win the Ulster Championship for the past few years) & Wicklow (beat Down in the Championship 2 years ago). These are all serious teams with aspirations of causing an upset against Div 1 teams. To suggest that this situation is anyway similar to the lower levels of hurling is nothing short of dishonest. These are the sort of teams Kilkenny have to play and it is impossible for them to develop when there is no lower level for them to play against.
Yet these teams rarely ever cause an upset, and if they do it is usually a once off. So there is a major gap imo. None of the teams you mentioned would be considered as a tough opponent the top tier, except among their own Divisions. KK cannot say the same unfortunately.
Fourth paragraph, your "fact" is incorrect. There are no truly weak counties in football other than Kilkenny for the reasons already outlined.
As I said above, there are. I don't see Leitrim beating Kerry or even Galway right now.
Fifth paragraph, more of the same. Christy Ring Cup, etc, completely irrelevant. Kilkenny can't be competitive because there is nobody there to be competitive against for the reasons already outlined!!!
The reason is the game is under developed.. because there is no attempt to develop it. KK could very easily be competitive in the NFL Div 4.
Sixth paragraph-I haven't offered a single excuse for anything in any of my replies. I have simply presented you with the facts. I don't have a solution. I've already explained to you that very, very few people in Kilkenny care about football. That's not going to change. You posed the question in your original post as to whether Kilkenny should just withdraw. I think they probably should. I ask you again, is that acceptable to you and if not, why not? Despite what you may think, there are not "loads" of footballers in Kilkenny who are feeling let down by the County Board and who dream of playing football for Kilkenny. As you said above about the lower level hurling teams, that is simply never going to happen.
It is not acceptable to me because there are followers of football in KK, few though they may be. There would be more if football was given a fighting chance!
Finally, this whole discussion reminds me of a conversation I had with a Monaghan man at a wedding a few years ago. He was in his 50's and he was an authority on Monaghan football going back decades. From what I could gather, there was hardly a player who wore the county jersey in the past 50 years that he was not familiar with. When he found out I was from Kilkenny he commiserated with me and said what a pity it was that we couldn't put in more of an effort in football. I pointed out that we're not too bad at the hurling but he just brushed that off and said again how sad it was that we couldn't improve at football. I then asked him about the Monaghan hurlers and he just looked at me blankly. He was unable to tell me how they were doing or even what division they were in. Some people seem to see hurling as an exotic game that you look at a couple of times a year on tv and then forget about. Football is the "real" game. Is it so hard for anyone to understand that, in Kilkenny, the complete opposite is the case? Our county has little interest in football and is the only county in Ireland to feel that way to such an extent. Therefore we have no opposition to meet at our own level unlike the 16 or so counties who feel the same way about hurling.
I understand this, I'm not even a big football fan myself. I just am a big supporter of Clare IC teams in both codes and love to see them win. But maybe it would be best for KK to throw in the towel if there is no appetite for success in both codes.
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But why not improve coaching, promotion and playing of football in the couny so that you can compete against other teams?0
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Moderators, Category Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,345 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 32063
In baby language, for you to understand:
Kilkenny footballers V Any Div 1 football team = complete massacre
Kilkenny hurlers V Any Div 4 hurling team = complete massacre
Any Div 1 hurling team V Any Div 4 hurling team = complete massacre
Any Div 1 football team V Any Div 4 football team(other than Kilkenny) = very competitive with the odd win for the Div 4 team
Conclusion:
The gap between the divisions in football is very small and any talk of "levels" is complete nonsense. Kilkenny are the only truly lower level football team. In hurling, there are genuine levels and so easy to be competitive at each level.
Reason:
Unlike every other county, Kilkenny has no football area. Almost every player on the county team is playing his secondary sport. Very few people in Kilkenny care whether we have a team or not as there is nobody for us to play against.
QED
SO WHAT ????? Do you not think people can play 2 sports well?????????? If they need help to improve ( which they do ) why not DEVELOP FOOTBALL IN THE COUNTY??? Enter County Board (or not as is the case!)
In baby language, for you to understand : improve coaching, promotion and playing of football in the couny so that you can compete against other teams?
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But why not improve coaching, promotion and playing of football in the couny so that you can compete against other teams?
The problem remains though that there are no football areas in Kilkenny. Every other inter-county football team is backboned by players from the football clubs. Dual players are rare. Whatever team Kilkenny might play, they would remain a team of hurlers playing football. Talk of coaching & promotion is fine but without a natural base it would still be very difficult. No other county has this problem so your advice is not that simple. Will a bunch of players put in the effort knowing that a 20 point improvement on the current team would still mean you were going to lose by 10 points every match? Creating a football area would bring us back to the issue of forcing people so that's out too.
By the way, if you really don't know, a WUM is a Wind Up Merchant. I think we may leave it at that as I can't see us agreeing. I certainly don't intend to be stand offish, it's simply frustration at what I see as the completely unjustified criticism aimed at Kilkenny from a number of posters, many of whom make no effort to understand Kilkenny's position. Some of the posts in the early part of this thread, not yours, are "misguided" to put it very mildly and talk of sanctions will annoy any Kilkenny person as it is both inconsistent and unfair.0
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