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The Rise and Rise of Sinn Fein

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    #92
    ixtlan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭ixtlan


    danger man wrote: »
    SF policies do make sense economically. i think they would be following along the lines of what argentina done.
    dont bother replying SF bashers who read off the same old government him sheet.this is backed up by top economists all over the world.

    Three years after argentina declared a record debt default of more than $100 billion. the apocalypse has not arrived. Instead, the economy has grown by 8 percent for two consecutive years, exports have zoomed, the currency is stable, investors are gradually returning and unemployment has eased from record highs - all without a debt settlement or the standard measures required by the International Monetary Fund for its approval.
    Argentina's recovery has been undeniable, and it has been achieved at least in part by ignoring and even defying economic and political orthodoxy. Rather than moving to immediately satisfy bondholders, private banks and the I.M.F., as other developing countries have done in less severe crises, the Peronist-led government chose to stimulate internal consumption first and told creditors to get in line with everyone else.

    In fact, after ignoring the IMF and charting its own course, in 2005, Argentina found itself in a position to actually pay off its creditors and is now firmly ensconced as a G-20 member.

    all these bailouts of countries, huge insurers, compaines, Wall St. are just a way of funneling taxpayer money to the indebted's creditors.
    There no help or even intention to help the indebted party, in fact, the conditions that attach are usually incredibly onerous and lead ot mass human suffering


    This makes it sound like Argentina defaulted and from then on everything was perfect. In actual fact the people in Argentina suffered terribly. Let me quote from Wikipedia.


    Most barter networks, viable as devices to ameliorate the shortage of cash during the recession, collapsed as large numbers of people turned to them, desperate to save as many pesos as they could for exchange for hard currency as a palliative for uncertainty.

    Several thousand newly homeless and jobless Argentines found work as cartoneros, or cardboard collectors. The 2003 estimation of 30,000 to 40,000 people scavenged the streets for cardboard to eke out a living by selling it to recycling plants. This method accounts for only one of many ways of coping in a country that at the time suffered from an unemployment rate soaring at nearly 25%.

    Agriculture was also affected: Argentine products were rejected in some international markets, for fear they might arrive damaged from the poor conditions they grew in, and the USDA put restrictions on Argentine food and drugs arriving at the United States.


    The point is that there is no get out of jail card for the current Irish crisis. We are going to suffer to some extent. If we default we will also suffer, and there is really no reason to believe that the suffering would be less under a SF plan. I find it dishonest that they present their solution as pretty much pain-free.

    Ix.


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    #93
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Yes, I saw that, he was appalling, I also heard Mary Lou on the news, soaking up her moment of victory,

    How dare she embrace a political victory. Shame on her. :rolleyes:
    LordSutch wrote: »
    she was just as bad as she always is, stating the bleedin obvious, & speaking in sound bites, presumably designed for those who have fewer brain cells than the average compliment?

    Let me be perfect clerar about this, we in Sinn Fein will hold Fine Gael & Labour to account . . . . . waffle waffle.

    That is their duty as opposition. What exactly is your point? That she embraced her victory, stated Sinn Féin will hold the Government to account on it's decisions and expressed her views on the immoral and economic disaster that was the bailout?

    Speaking of soundbytes - I heard enough of them from all parties during the election campaign.. Whether it's from Enda Kenny with his 5-point plan to nowhere, or anyone else for that matter.

    The reality of the matter is - Sinn Féin opposes this bailout, of which we recently saw 750 million of unguaranteed private debt being paid out by the Irish people. It's wreckless decisions like that, that will cause the debt burden to be so extreme - that we will not be financially secure enough to pay it off, or enter the international bond markets. The only way we can do that is to show that we are capable of having sustainable debt. As it stands, the sheer amount of debt that we are burdened with is unsustainable.

    It also opposes the level of austerity measures taken and future austerity measures. This rings home to many people, because the reality of the matter is - the general public does not want to be punished for the failings of others. So no matter what way this deal was spun - the public understood that it was ethically wrong to do so, and that is why Sinn Féin now has 14 seats, more than triple the seats from the 2007 elections.

    Not one political party has instilled enough confidence in me to believe we can repay this debt. Most economic commentators are now pointing to defaulting on non-sovereign debt, correcting fiscal imbalances and returning to the bond markets once we have shown that our debt is of a sustainable level. That is the key issue for re-entering the markets, and gaining a favourable rate. Some people argue that Sinn Féin does not want to implement cuts - While this is further from the truth. It wishes to implement them from top-down, just like one of pending coalition partners of Government, Labour and correct waste within the Public Sector. Implementing them from the bottom up leaves less disposable income in the pockets of the average household, which will result in the continuing demise of local businesses.

    It could be argued whether or not the type of fiscal corrections that left-leaning parties like Sinn Féin or Labour are enough to correct the sustainability of debt - But no more so than the status quo of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael - which are intent on burdening the state, beyond repair.


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    #94
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    I'd much prefer someone with a bit of honesty, like dessie ellis to be on tv - naive and all that he is in regards television - that have some wanker spouting out the insincere paltitudes some people obviously prefer to hear from their politicians.


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    #95
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    LordSutch wrote: »
    designed for those who have fewer brain cells than the average compliment?

    Its sneaky, fly comments like this that get my goat. Why not go all out and have the balls to call all sinn fein supporters idiots? That is after all why you're trying to suggest.


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    #96
    th3 s1aught3r
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,925 ✭✭✭th3 s1aught3r


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Yes, I saw that, he was appalling, I also heard Mary Lou on the news, soaking up her moment of victory, she was just as bad as she always is, stating the bleedin obvious, & speaking in sound bites, presumably designed for those who have fewer brain cells than the average compliment?

    .

    So, she behaved like every other politician who got elected but you find it annoying just becasue she is with Sinn Fein :confused:


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    #97
    aDeener
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭aDeener


    th3 s1aught3r wrote: »
    So, she behaved like every other politician who got elected but you find it annoying just becasue she is with Sinn Fein :confused:

    have you and lord sutch not been introduced?


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    #98
    The Brigadier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,549 ✭✭✭The Brigadier


    maccored wrote: »
    Its sneaky, fly comments like this that get my goat. Why not go all out and have the balls to call all sinn fein supporters idiots? That is after all why you're trying to suggest.

    I can't see how you could tar the Nationalist-Socialist voters in this country with the "idiot" brush any more so than you could tar those who voted for Healy-Rae.


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    #99
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    The Brigadier wrote: »
    I can't see how you could tar the Nationalist-Socialist voters in this country with the "idiot" brush any more so than you could tar those who voted for Healy-Rae.

    you should really read the thread. Im not tarring 'Nationalist-Socialist voters in this country with the "idiot" brush' - Im pointing out that your dear colleague Lordsutch seems to be making that insinuation.


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    #100
    th3 s1aught3r
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,925 ✭✭✭th3 s1aught3r


    aDeener wrote: »
    have you and lord sutch not been introduced?

    thankfully no ;)


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    #101
    steve9859
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭steve9859


    ixtlan wrote: »
    I find it dishonest that they present their solution as pretty much pain-free.

    That is absolutely spot on, and the main reason I am sickened by SF's gains. A not insignificant part of the popluation have believed SF's spin, and think that we can get out of this mess for free


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    #102
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    steve9859 wrote: »
    A not insignificant part of the popluation have believed SF's spin, and think that we can get out of this mess for free

    A not insignificant part of the popluation are clearly quite confused about Sinn Feins policies if they think they were saying "we can get out of this mess for free".


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    #103
    steve9859
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭steve9859


    maccored wrote: »
    A not insignificant part of the popluation are clearly quite confused about Sinn Feins policies if they think they were saying "we can get out of this mess for free".

    Im not talking about their policy. Im talking about their soundbites. I would question how many SF voters have looked past the high level "default on our debts, use the pension reserve to fund the country, no problem" message.


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    #104
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    steve9859 wrote: »
    I would question how many SF voters have looked past the high level "default on our debts, use the pension reserve to fund the country, no problem" message.

    Quite a few I would assume. Its not sinn fein voters view that seems off to me - its the view that shinners are obviously stupid. You view on how clued up SF voters were is way off tangent. I'd say a majority have a better understanding of the **** we're in that the voters of most other parties.


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    #105
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    steve9859 wrote: »
    Im not talking about their policy. Im talking about their soundbites.

    Dont mind me asking, but why are you more worried about their soundbites than policies? I voted on policies rather than soundbites. Did you?


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    #106
    Soldie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Soldie


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Not one political party has instilled enough confidence in me to believe we can repay this debt. Most economic commentators are now pointing to defaulting on non-sovereign debt, correcting fiscal imbalances and returning to the bond markets once we have shown that our debt is of a sustainable level. That is the key issue for re-entering the markets, and gaining a favourable rate. Some people argue that Sinn Féin does not want to implement cuts - While this is further from the truth. It wishes to implement them from top-down, just like one of pending coalition partners of Government, Labour and correct waste within the Public Sector. Implementing them from the bottom up leaves less disposable income in the pockets of the average household, which will result in the continuing demise of local businesses.

    Leaving aside the issue of whether or not it's even possible for us to decouple ourselves from the bank debt at this stage, let's suppose the government does default. At what point do you think we can realistically expect to return to the bond markets after defaulting?


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    #107
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Soldie wrote: »
    Leaving aside the issue of whether or not it's even possible for us to decouple ourselves from the bank debt at this stage, let's suppose the government does default. At what point do you think we can realistically expect to return to the bond markets after defaulting?

    The moment our debt levels become sustainable. That is the primary clause for re-entering. With unsustainable debt (which is what we currently face), it is not possible to re-enter. You should be very concerned about the impact this debt will have on our ability to recover, if you're not already concerned. I'm surprised that people are so passive on the issue, considering the potential damage it could cause to the state to continue to burden ourselves with this level of debt, which such low growth projections.


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    #108
    Soldie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Soldie


    dlofnep wrote: »
    The moment our debt levels become sustainable. That is the primary clause for re-entering. With unsustainable debt (which is what we currently face), it is not possible to re-enter. You should be very concerned about the impact this debt will have on our ability to recover, if you're not already concerned. I'm surprised that people are so passive on the issue, considering the potential damage it could cause to the state to continue to burden ourselves with this level of debt, which such low growth projections.

    Our sovereign debt is not a major issue. If we default on the bank debt then why would we have to worry about the sustainability of what we've just reneged on?


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    #109
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Soldie wrote: »
    Our sovereign debt is not a major issue. If we default on the bank debt then why would we have to worry about the sustainability of what we've just reneged on?

    It was clear I was referring to private debt, not sovereign debt. With regards to the international markets - state-debt must be sustainable. Therefore, by lumping private debt into sovereign debt - it becomes unsustainable. Hence, default, correct fiscal imbalances and re-enter markets.


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    #110
    Soldie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Soldie


    dlofnep wrote: »
    It was clear I was referring to private debt, not sovereign debt. With regards to the international markets - state-debt must be sustainable. Therefore, by lumping private debt into sovereign debt - it becomes unsustainable. Hence, default, correct fiscal imbalances and re-enter markets.

    Our real sovereign debt is not a big issue. It's only an issue now that the bank debt has been incorporated into it. But you want to default on the bank debt, so debt sustainability is not an issue if we were to do so. What you're saying is not making any sense. The reason I asked how long you thought it would take before we could re-enter the bond markets is because you are suggesting that we go to the very people we have defaulted on to buy our bonds. Do we wait a few years and hope they forget, or should we be cheeky and only leave it a day or two?


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