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Why do the Irish always run away
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They can rant all they want, but they dont have a monopoly on tough times or hard work. And I've had it up to here with people indulging them.
You seem to be focused on a very small percentage of people. People can be at once pissed off and working to improve matters too. Work/life balance is an essential part of a happy life and if people can't find a job/are stuck on the dole though not for a lack of trying/are working a job they detest because they have no other options, they're going to lash out. Given enough time, people get demotivated and lose hope and certainly, some of them will be more whiney than they are entitled to. That's not the majority of people though.My mate graduated in summer 2009. (with a rotten degree result)
And he's been working his hole off to get a job for at leastthe last 10 months.
No-one ever said it was easy. But no-one should expect to walk into a job.
But you seem to be inferring that Local_Womanizer couldn't have walked into a job. That's what my point was in relation to. No one should ever expect to walk into a job. For some people, that's a good kick in the arse but for most others, they already know that, hence why many are moving to increase their prospects.0 -
How can you say "we make our own path" and then critisise people who have made their own path by going abroad? Is every path followable by staying in Ireland?
You wanna go, go.
I just dont like the sense of entitlement of people who stay behind.
And the bitterness of those who leave who say 'I was forced to leave'0 -
But you seem to be inferring that Local_Womanizer couldn't have walked into a job. That's what my point was in relation to. No one should ever expect to walk into a job. For some people, that's a good kick in the arse but for most others, they already know that, hence why many are moving to increase their prospects.
Fair enough, emigrating to increase your prospects is fine. I'm not against emigration. But dont blame everyone else for it.0 -
I haven't read all of the posts so apologies if I'm repeating someone else.
I may only be a LC student, but here's my opinion.
There are WAY too many long term unemployed in Ireland. I know people unemployed for 8 years or so, and now they are complaining that it's the governments fault they still have no job. These people are of no value to Ireland. Why give them enough money that they can drink 3 or 4 nights a week and live comfortably?
We are poorly educated. Think about the world for a moment. What do people need. What are people willing to spend hard earned money on. The sectors should be health, education, leisure. After that, is anything else an absolute necessity?
This recession, I've noticed, separates the strong from the weak. People say there is no future, blame it all on the government and the banks, and do absolutely nothing to help themselves. Why are there still so many employed? Unemployment is what, 14%? Is there a reason these 14% are unemployed? In a lot of cases, yes. They worked in highly unreliable and unsustainable industries such as construction. They did very little work for a lot of pay. You don't need to be an economist to realize that if you aren't actually creating what you get paid, there's something not quite right. Example, a construction worker arseing around for a week, doing little work, and getting paid 1000 for that same week. That same worker maybe could have realised, this can hardly last forever, maybe i should work harder, climb the ladder, get a more secure job, start contributing to the economy. It didn't cross their mind.
Why are there still businesses succeeding in these "dark ages". Why are the smartest, the most talented, the hardest working still prospering? Because a government, a bank, the EU or the IMF don't dictate your life, you do. I'm not Bill Cullen's biggest fan or anything, but his attitude is spot on. The government cannot create a job for you, it has to be created by yourself. If that involves a few hard months of working for nothing, having no luxuries, pushing yourself to working 100 hrs a week, then so be it.
There seems to be no concept of working hard and reaping rewards in Ireland. Everyone wants someone else to do it for them. Everyone complains about emigration. Why are there thousands of recent graduates employed? Because they are hard working and intelligent engineers, doctors, scientists, and they can provide something to recovery and eventually they can help the country prosper.
On the other hand, I know a fair few people who graduated recently and emigrated by choice. They left for different reasons, because they want to travel and see the world, and broaden their horizons, and learn more. And they are right to, bcause they won't get any of that here in a "blame it on someone else" country.
Anyone who complains about the Government, why don't you run in the election, and show us how it should be done?0 -
[QUOTE=Glenster;70793891]Fair enough, emigrating to increase your prospects is fine. I'm not against emigration. But dont blame everyone else for it.[/QUOTE]
So we're no longer "scum" for emigrating then?You wanna go, go.
I just dont like the sense of entitlement of people who stay behind.
And the bitterness of those who leave who say 'I was forced to leave'
I did. I stayed in Europe, though, so can have the best of both worlds.
So we're no longer "scum" for emigrating, then?
I agree with your second two lines, but I think you've read things in a lot of posts that simply weren't there. As Millincet said, any one who has a sence of entitlement has another thought coming. And people should bear in mind when choosing careers or jobs that travel might be nesssecary to achieve full potential.Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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People who can get jobs get them, I got a job in the last 6 months, a good one.
People who cant get jobs, get out, you lose, nice knowing you.
This is the natural order of things.
By all means emigrate, live your life the best you can, but know this : Your country hasn't failed you by not gifting you a job, you have failed your country by not being indespensible to it.
Arrogant and Ignorant, no other way to put it. Get a clue, visit the real world.0 -
rage against the leaving wrote: »...
OT, but I have to give you some credit for a great username.0 -
I hope you don't mind me picking a few holes here...
Ok, you started your agument well enough...rage against the leaving wrote: »I haven't read all of the posts so apologies if I'm repeating someone else.
I may only be a LC student, but here's my opinion.
There are WAY too many long term unemployed in Ireland. I know people unemployed for 8 years or so, and now they are complaining that it's the governments fault they still have no job. These people are of no value to Ireland. Why give them enough money that they can drink 3 or 4 nights a week and live comfortably?
Based on what? As much as people like to talk it down, the Irish education system is held in high regard in other countries. At least let me put it this way... An Irish degree is worth a lot. I work in the States... they LOVE the Irish... the company I am in has bases all over the world and outsources to many more but more and more they can't stop praising the Irish workers. For example, more and more teams are moving away from India, as much as it makes sense for the company to outsource to India for financial reasons, the quality of work and worker is much higher in Ireland and managers of individual teams want Irish workers. That is their perception based on experience. The perception of Irish graduated vs. many other countries is held VERY highly. For that reason they are out sourcing more and more work to the few Irish based locations and even more so are hiring Irish graduates to come straight to the US and sponsoring their VISA... they can pick any other country, including their own but they DON'T. That is how highly Irish graduates are rated abroad. For the past number of years the ease at which Irish can graduate from college with a very good degree without being crippled by debt means the Irish are VERY highly educated.We are poorly educated.
How do you estimate that we are uneducated?
I don't really get what this means or how it applies to this topic. There will always be vacancies where there is high demand.Think about the world for a moment. What do people need. What are people willing to spend hard earned money on. The sectors should be health, education, leisure. After that, is anything else an absolute necessity?
Well if I can just talk about the sector I am in... well... in the early 2000's, there were droves of companies in Ireland looking for Irish graduates and workers. Due to the government seeing fit to cash in on this, these firms realised it was a better financial decision to pull out of Ireland and send the work elsewhere. Factor in the recession meaning these companies can now afford to hire less people worldwide then those jobs just don't exist. It's not a matter of strong vs. weak.This recession, I've noticed, separates the strong from the weak. People say there is no future, blame it all on the government and the banks, and do absolutely nothing to help themselves. Why are there still so many employed?
If you have 100 people equally capable of doing a job. In 2000, those 100 jobs existed in Ireland... Now probably 5 of them are left and at best 50 of them still exist but have been moved to India or somewhere cheaper. Where do you think those others who were let go will work? It doesn't mean they are incapable.
What? Construction is unreliable? The way the construction industry was HANDLED was unstable and unsustainable... yes.Unemployment is what, 14%? Is there a reason these 14% are unemployed? In a lot of cases, yes. They worked in highly unreliable and unsustainable industries such as construction.
But surely you are not suggesting that construction is a dying trade? So what? Basically we have build all the buildings and infrastructure that the worlds needs and now we're done? I must be missing something in your point but I don't think so.
There's some merit in what you're saying in relation to amount spend vs. output but other than that I go back to what I said above. Are you saying consttuction is done? Never to be needed again and we should have forseen it? What are you on about?They did very little work for a lot of pay. You don't need to be an economist to realize that if you aren't actually creating what you get paid, there's something not quite right. Example, a construction worker arseing around for a week, doing little work, and getting paid 1000 for that same week.
I'm totally lost now...That same worker maybe could have realised, this can hardly last forever, maybe i should work harder, climb the ladder, get a more secure job, start contributing to the economy. It didn't cross their mind.
Yes, sure the bubble was going to burst... but what is your solution? For the average bricky to work up to foreman? To site manager? To what? Architecht? Then their job would be safe? You want every worker on that building site to become a Developer? Then who will lay the bricks?
And sorry if I'm confusing your point but isn't your arguement above that this industry is on its knees, never to recover? Then why even work your way up if thats the case? Whether you laid bricks or designed sky scrapers they are all in the same situation.
Because a recession does not mean everything shuts down. It is a case of supply and demand. Recession means there is less money to be spread about. Demand goes down, some businesses continue as normal, some continue at a slower rate, some fail. It doesn't mean EVERYTHING disappears.Why are there still businesses succeeding in these "dark ages".
Says who? There are some incredibly talented hard working people who are either in Ireland and the jobs they could do are just not open right now or they have just left to use what they have somewhere where it is wanted or needed. What you are saying is that Ireland has now gone through some sort of Darwin phase where anyone who is not the elite has been weeded out and only the best of the best now remain in Ireland, suggesting everything is better than it could ever have been before? Look around... is that what you see?Why are the smartest, the most talented, the hardest working still prospering?
Yes and no. The government, EU, IMF dictate a lot about the country. I've already covered the 100 people into 1 job scenario above. But yes... I agree in saying that if you have to go and do work off your own back, earn little to nothing if it means a brighter future, then yeah. I agree with this... But people are doing this... not everyone but some are. Your painting everyone with the same brush. There are those who are doing everything they can to get themselves in a position to be on top in the future. To some that means doing as you say, 100 hours a week on little pay... to others it means moving abroad and probably working the same and hopefully being paid enough for it.Because a government, a bank, the EU or the IMF don't dictate your life, you do. I'm not Bill Cullen's biggest fan or anything, but his attitude is spot on. The government cannot create a job for you, it has to be created by yourself. If that involves a few hard months of working for nothing, having no luxuries, pushing yourself to working 100 hrs a week, then so be it.
Everyone?There seems to be no concept of working hard and reaping rewards in Ireland. Everyone wants someone else to do it for them. Everyone complains about emigration.
But what of all those engineers and scientists which have nobody to work for? Where as going back 5-10 years there was more oppertunities? Are these the wasters who aren't good enough that you mean? No? You seem to think they are hard working and intelligent in this paragraph.Why are there thousands of recent graduates employed? Because they are hard working and intelligent engineers, doctors, scientists, and they can provide something to recovery and eventually they can help the country prosper.
And whats wrong with that?On the other hand, I know a fair few people who graduated recently and emigrated by choice. They left for different reasons, because they want to travel and see the world, and broaden their horizons, and learn more. And they are right to, bcause they won't get any of that here in a "blame it on someone else" country.
While I'm all for improving Ireland. One thing I don't understand is why for such a small island, why everyone just wants to stay in their own little patch and never see the world and what there is on offer?
And there are plenty who are... and a government and opposition who are actively discouraging people for voting for independents. Not exactly a nice climate to be in! But there ARE people doing it. At last count theres more independents in my constituency than I ever remember in any recent elections.Anyone who complains about the Government, why don't you run in the election, and show us how it should be done?0 -
We run for away for jobs, weather and women. I'm not going to feel guilty about it.0
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rage against the leaving wrote: »We are poorly educated.
i disagree it is mainly the many educated people who are gaining employment at the moment, in fact a main problem of this recession is you now practically need a degree to stock shelves now employers have more choice in their employee pool because we are so well educated..rage against the leaving wrote: »This recession, I've noticed, separates the strong from the weak. People say there is no future, blame it all on the government and the banks, and do absolutely nothing to help themselves. Why are there still so many employed? Unemployment is what, 14%? Is there a reason these 14% are unemployed? In a lot of cases, yes. They worked in highly unreliable and unsustainable industries such as construction.
the reason there are so many unemployed is because there are too many graduates being pumped out of the colleges, before they could just create positions for them (and they did) but now companies are cost cutting and re-organising and removing these positions where they can save money on.
it also highly depend on what industry you are in, for example my partner in is pharmaceuticals, he had a full time position waiting for him before he finished his last exam, his friends are in pharmacy and dentistry and there are jobs here for them, his brother did engineering and is now working in a totally different industry here as there are no jobs in his area, another brother is doing computer science, he will probably have to move abroad...
it is not that they are unsustainable and unreliable in my opinion it's just bad timing that they graduated in a cost-cutting time in their area's of industry, 5 years ago my partner could have well struggled for employment and had to go abroad, while the engineer and comp sci graduate would have walked into employment in Ireland.rage against the leaving wrote: »There seems to be no concept of working hard and reaping rewards in Ireland. Everyone wants someone else to do it for them. Everyone complains about emigration. Why are there thousands of recent graduates employed? Because they are hard working and intelligent engineers, doctors, scientists, and they can provide something to recovery and eventually they can help the country prosper.
you cannot say everyone here, there are some who remain long term unemployed, there are some who expect jobs to land in their laps, there are many who will go out and do anything possible to get themselves employed, even if it means going abroad for a few years, or for life, you cannot dictate how someone lives their lives and you cannot make assumptions on their life choices,
those who use the government as an excuse for leaving are just looking for someone else to blame and have been handed a handy excuse at the moment, if it wasn't the governments/banks fault it would be the industries fault, or the employers who would not hire them, like it was years ago, but they are not the majority, thankfully most i've heard from recognise to develop their careers a move abroad can be a necessity, true some don't want to leave home but have to, but thats life,you have to do thngs you don't want to do sometimes, that is them accepting they need to make a sacrifice to have the career they want.
+1The odds are now against a lot of people where they weren't before. That is not the people's fault so they can't be blamed for it. For example, a multitude of those just out of college could have just walked into jobs five years ago -- now even intern roles are requiring 2-3 years of experience. It's an employer's market now and they can and will exploit that. I am not saying it is impossible, just that it is infinitely more difficult than it used to be, even for the qualified.
except for the bolded part, i would add that it is not the peoples fault just like it is not the governments fault to be fair blame cannot always be allocated in a situation. and certain jobs have always followed an up/down cycle even in the boom years as per my point above.And people should bear in mind when choosing careers or jobs that travel might be nesssecary to achieve full potential.
agreed i think most people heading into the private industry would have been prepared for this!0 -
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Its funny how you always hear about the Irish "built America" or "built Britain" or "built Australia" arent we great
How about building Ireland for a change ?0 -
th3 s1aught3r wrote: »Its funny how you always hear about the Irish "built America" or "built Britain" or "built Australia" arent we great
How about building Ireland for a change ?
Why am I picturing you as Homer Simpson, thinking "can't someone ELSE do it?"
I'm still waiting for your proactive activites that don't include lecturing others.Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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th3 s1aught3r wrote: »Its funny how you always hear about the Irish "built America" or "built Britain" or "built Australia" arent we great
How about building Ireland for a change ?
So what are you, specifically you, going to do to contribute to rebuild the country?0 -
Why are people taking courses in areas that there are no jobs? We've been told for years that IT/Science etc. are the places where professionals are required. I went to college for 4 years got my degree and got a job straight out of it in 2009. And our company is constantly hiring IT professionals.
But no, I still see people doing useless degree courses such as business, law and arts degrees. the first 2 are useless in ireland at the minute and arts degrees are worth their weight in toilet paper.
You need to adapt to what is required around you. No point in doing business degrees when there are no jobs in the field.
Ireland is one of the top R&D nations in the world and people are wasting their time and the countries money being trained in pointless courses.
Too many people are giving out too. When Dell left limerick we have people (including many of my family members) complaining that they didnt get support from the state. what the f**k do you expect when you dont even have a relevant qualification? Makes no sense whatsoever.0 -
th3 s1aught3r wrote: »In all fairness how would know that ?
seriously, how ?
Well until you actually answer the question, we can only assume you are doing nothing about it. You have been asked numerous times and still have not answered the question sufficiently.th3 s1aught3r wrote: »Not spending my whole time on a internet forum for a start
Go troll somewhere else
See. Right there, you just avoided the question point blank. No, that is not an actual answer. That was a statement.
What exactly are you doing to improve this country's fortunes?
Expected answer: By staying here...:rolleyes:0 -
th3 s1aught3r wrote: »Its funny how you always hear about the Irish "built America" or "built Britain" or "built Australia" arent we great
How about building Ireland for a change ?
Who do you think built it?0 -
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Why are people taking courses in areas that there are no jobs? We've been told for years that IT/Science etc. are the places where professionals are required. I went to college for 4 years got my degree and got a job straight out of it in 2009. And our company is constantly hiring IT professionals.
But no, I still see people doing useless degree courses such as business, law and arts degrees. the first 2 are useless in ireland at the minute and arts degrees are worth their weight in toilet paper.
You need to adapt to what is required around you. No point in doing business degrees when there are no jobs in the field.
Ireland is one of the top R&D nations in the world and people are wasting their time and the countries money being trained in pointless courses.
Too many people are giving out too. When Dell left limerick we have people (including many of my family members) complaining that they didnt get support from the state. what the f**k do you expect when you dont even have a relevant qualification? Makes no sense whatsoever.
You have a point there about people doing courses which are no good for them. Its probably a hangover from 10 years ago when people could do what "they want to do" and get a job from it.
Having said that. A science/IT degree is a great thing to have but if anything we've been told for the past few years that it is NOT the thing to have. Not in Ireland anyway, the jobs aren't there... but if you wanna go outside Ireland... yes it's a great thing to have but isn't that what we're avoiding in this thread?
Having said that... I don't think there are many sectors not effected. No degree guarantees you work.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »America? The blacks and the Chinese.
Yes, because Ireland was actually founded and built by immigrants in the 1990's :rolleyes:0 -
I see Ireland as a community we are all neighbours and comrades but I don't think it's a popular opinion most just seem to see this place as a country of individuals.
I haven't seen much action from the unemployed, I know there are many breaking their backs looking for work but I haven't seen to much civil action groups doing something real other than marching. I haven't seen to much use of the enterprise groups that helped businesses start up in the last recession.
There are entrepreneurs out there doing what they do best and they aren't complaining about recessions they just accept things are as they are and do the best they can. There are a number of people that will set up businesses in this recession and benefit from any recovery in the economy as long as their business is good.
I don't like to see people leave when they are needed by their community, I understand it and I understand the people feel like they've been left with no choice but it's just something I hate to see happen.0 -
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I dunno where all these science jobs are for graduates but sign me up (i work part time in a shop, degree in chemistry and biology.. go figure!)0
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th3 s1aught3r wrote: »As in emmigrate
I know there is the obvious answer of no jobs. But anytime we have difficulty, people leave in droves. The only ones who stay are the long term unemplyable, those lucky enough to get into the civil service and those who can afford to , ie: the ruling classes.
They keep us in this cycle of doom
Maybe if people stayed here and stood up for themselves instead of legging it we wouldnt be in this mess , or am I totally wrong on this ?
have you checked the size of the country at all. If people did not emigrate we wouldn't have room to stand. All small countries are "immigration" countries.0 -
Well until you actually answer the question, we can only assume you are doing nothing about it. You have been asked numerous times and still have not answered the question sufficiently.
See. Right there, you just avoided the question point blank. No, that is not an actual answer. That was a statement.
What exactly are you doing to improve this country's fortunes?
Expected answer: By staying here...:rolleyes:
I think it's actually a plea for help. Please stay/come back and help me and our country stay afloat because if you don't we're dooooomed.... (and in his case, pretty much incapable of helping himself)Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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You have a point there about people doing courses which are no good for them. Its probably a hangover from 10 years ago when people could do what "they want to do" and get a job from it.
Having said that. A science/IT degree is a great thing to have but if anything we've been told for the past few years that it is NOT the thing to have. Not in Ireland anyway, the jobs aren't there... but if you wanna go outside Ireland... yes it's a great thing to have but isn't that what we're avoiding in this thread?
Having said that... I don't think there are many sectors not effected. No degree guarantees you work.
From what I've seen in the sector from working in it and from what I've heard from colleagues, lecturers, friends etc. I.T. is the way to go in Ireland. Personally I've been spoiled for choice with different careers opportunities since I've left college because I have an I.T. degree.
And as I was saying, Ireland is a leader in the sector with companies such as Google, Facebook, Cisco, Intel, IBM and so on and so forth having major bases situated here.
I'm not basing this on opinion, they are facts and this is without mentioning all over the irish owned I.T. companies. Colleges are crying out ever year for people to take the courses. For example, I started college in 2005 with 35 in the class, 11 graduated and we can al get jobs. My mate is in business at the minute(3rd year) with around 400/500 others and they haven't a hope of getting a job here.0 -
Having lived in both Ireland and America I feel I've experience enough of both cultures to say that there isn't really that GIRNORMOUS a difference. Both countries (in fact, ALL Western countries,) are concerned with wealth and consumer goods. True, everything in America is done to a larger scale because their country is a million times bigger than ours.
Ireland jumped on the material bandwagon with the enthusiasm of a crack-starved hooker getting her next hit. I.e. We embraced a materialistic culture and it lead to our downfall because we were stupid and greedy. There also seems to be some weird thing in Irish culture about owning one's own house, which doesn't really exist in places like Spain, Germany or in large parts of America.
I loathe this mentality that people have about Ireland being so much more culturally, intellectually or morally superior to America. There are differences sure, but it's just such a lazy and ignorant mindset.
You are so right Lambseye. Having lived in the Ireland for most of my life and now the US, it really has opened my eyes to the differences between the countries. I can't believe the anti-US views on boards.ie. I put it down to some mass inferiority complex. I do miss many aspects of Ireland but not the bitter drunks who hate to see anyone doing well. I did not run away from this island, I'm just enjoying the huge improvement in my standard of life.0 -
Are we? Those are all American companies apparently using Ireland to dodge tax. How much of their R&D is done in this country?And as I was saying, Ireland is a leader in the sector with companies such as Google, Facebook, Cisco, Intel, IBM and so on and so forth having major bases situated here.
Just saying that these companies have a building in this country isn't much to be proud of, they have basis all over the world. I don't know much about them maybe they do a lot of important work here but as far as I can see it's basic support and manufacturing and I don't think manufacturing is Irelands strong point, our infrastructure lets us down as much as anything else.0 -
Im outta here as soon as I can.
If I dont I will lose my house as there is no work. I can rent it, and keep it.
Plus the thoughts of waking up to warm sunshine and getting lots of money is very appealing.
Im taking my wife and son.
This is my second time emigrating . Its very exciting .
I hope I wont be back again TBH. I am alot more mature this time around and the homesickness that pulled me back the last time will not be a factor this time.0 -
From what I've seen in the sector from working in it and from what I've heard from colleagues, lecturers, friends etc. I.T. is the way to go in Ireland. Personally I've been spoiled for choice with different careers opportunities since I've left college because I have an I.T. degree.
And as I was saying, Ireland is a leader in the sector with companies such as Google, Facebook, Cisco, Intel, IBM and so on and so forth having major bases situated here.
I'm not basing this on opinion, they are facts and this is without mentioning all over the irish owned I.T. companies. Colleges are crying out ever year for people to take the courses. For example, I started college in 2005 with 35 in the class, 11 graduated and we can al get jobs. My mate is in business at the minute(3rd year) with around 400/500 others and they haven't a hope of getting a job here.
I.T. is absolutely a degree which is worth something but if you are not willing to travel it's value decreases ten fold.
I'm sorry to make assumptions but it seems like you might have only graduated in last few years. Go back to the early/mid 2000's. Look at all the companies which pulled out of Ireland. They overshadow those which remain.
And when you are talking about Google, Facebook, or anywhere else, they are NOT large operations in the global scheme of things... they are always just one taxbreak in the middle east away from pulling out.
As for major Irish IT companies? Who?
There are plenty of Irish companies but not many that are very big. When I say big I mean in terms of number of employees, pay scales and oppertunites available in a smaller firm.
It's not all doom and gloom. There IS still plenty in I.T. in Ireland but there is not more than any other industry.0 -
How many are leaving?0
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hold on now , not all carpenters are dirty, i am one and i am very cleanOnly scum emigrate, we're better off without them.
We got rid of millions of the filthy spongers in the 80's and we developed a Celtic Tiger economy.
Hopefully once all the dirty bricklayers and carpenters are gone we can get back to business around 2014.0
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