End compulsory english for the Leaving Cert?

ballsymchugh

Going from the thread on Fine Gael's policy for Irish..

At the moment, unless you have an exemption, the Dept of Education requires that you have Irish, and other subjects from a list to pass your LC. Irish isn't a requirement to get into 3rd level though.
However, it is a requirement by the Universities, along with Maths, to gain a place in college, so it becomes compulsory by default to the majority of those who do the LC.

with a lot of posters on the other thread going on about how little consequence it would be if Irish was dropped, since they don't need it for everyday life, then by that logic, what's the point in LC english?
since i did the leaving in '96 (repeated in 97 without english), i've had zero need to remember Hamlet, Kinsella, Yeats and all. I couldn't give a toss about Emma, and i don't need to discuss the plot or characters in a book to appreciate it.
for everyday life, the vast majority of us can survive on grammar learned in primary school. that may change with txtspk soon enough though.

so, if there's a debate on compulsory irish, shouldn't there be a debate on compulsory english?

ejmaztec

ballsymchugh wrote: »

Going from the thread on Fine Gael's policy for Irish..

At the moment, unless you have an exemption, the Dept of Education requires that you have Irish, and other subjects from a list to pass your LC. Irish isn't a requirement to get into 3rd level though.
However, it is a requirement by the Universities, along with Maths, to gain a place in college, so it becomes compulsory by default to the majority of those who do the LC.

with a lot of posters on the other thread going on about how little consequence it would be if Irish was dropped, since they don't need it for everyday life, then by that logic, what's the point in LC english?
since i did the leaving in '96 (repeated in 97 without english), i've had zero need to remember Hamlet, Kinsella, Yeats and all. I couldn't give a toss about Emma, and i don't need to discuss the plot or characters in a book to appreciate it.
for everyday life, the vast majority of us can survive on grammar learned in primary school. that may change with txtspk soon enough though.

so, if there's a debate on compulsory irish, shouldn't there be a debate on compulsory engish?

No.

FatherLen

whats next? end compulsory maths?!?

ballsymchugh

ballsymchugh wrote: »

for everyday life, the vast majority of us can survive on grammar learned in primary school. that may change with txtspk soon enough though.

Judging by the spelling & grammar of most people, they didn't learn any in primary school.

ballsymchugh

ejmaztec wrote: »

No.

ah tits!:D

Patri

If the language evolves into "txt speak" I'm blaming you OP. Oh and what do you mean we learn what we use in primary school?? The basics maybe, but no proper expression.

Dudess

I think ALL leaving cert subjects should be made non mandatory - there should be mandatory subjects prior to that though. Re English specifically: grammar, punctuation, spelling should be learned long before leaving cert. And English at leaving cert level doesn't seem to be preventing the scourge of text-speak.

ballsymchugh

FatherLen wrote: »

whats next? end compulsory maths?!?

maths isn't compulsory, like english it's become that way by default, as a requirement for entry to college. but it's not compulsory to pass the leaving. i would make it fully compulsory though.

frisbeeface

Dudess wrote: »

I think ALL leaving cert subjects should be made non mandatory. It's a crap system.

Agreed.

LC English is just about literature and creative writing. It's assumed everyone has acquired literacy by that point. So no reason it should be mandatory. I do think it should be taught better up until that point though, same as Irish, and the same for Maths.

deise go deo

English, Maths and Irish are core subjects for the LC, I think that all three should be retained as core subjects for the LC and that all three should be restructured to ensure the best results possible for the time spent on them.

heyjude

I thought it had been confirmed that Irish was the only compulsory subject for the Leaving Cert and therefore the question you've posed about whether we should "end compulsory english for the Leaving Cert" is irrelevant, since it isn't currently compulsory.

dlofnep

All three should remain as core subjects - but on a constitutional basis, if Irish is optional then so should English. Both languages should be given the same treatment as set out in Article 8.

ballsymchugh

heyjude wrote: »

I thought it had been confirmed that Irish was the only compulsory subject for the Leaving Cert and therefore the question you've posed about whether we should "end compulsory english for the Leaving Cert" is irrelevant, since it isn't currently compulsory.

it's become compulsory by default, along with maths as entry requirements to third level.

galwayrush

So, what good is being able to speak the English language anyways?:pac::pac:

LambsEye

Since I only LOVED English in school I personally would say no. But I did have friends who had no business for comparative literature or creative writing, and that's fair enough.

If they were to make the English subject optional then they SHOULD make a revised English curriculum compulsory. In my opinion Spelling, vocabulary, grammar and punctuation should be mandatory right up to the end. If they want to take out the flowery aspects of the course then that'd be cool, but darn it people NEED to know how to speak and write properly.

ejmaztec

ballsymchugh wrote: »

ah tits!:D

That'll lurn ya:P

Jazzy

i say make english even more compulsory if possible. hopefully people actually get standards instead of putting up with X-Factor and dave mcsavage

starlit

To be honest OP, I don't think it would be fair to scrap English. Everyone needs a good command of the English language when it comes to careers and every day life. You couldn't go anywhere without it really?
The only thing is that they could adjust whats on the paper that's all I would say. Learning reams and reams of poetry, prose and other items on the paper could be be reduced or made more fun. Its interesting though learning about a book/play/authors bios is worth knowing but when it comes to the likes of shakespere and the likes then maybe that could be scrapped as it might not benefit people that much. Though comprehension and understanding is what you achieve when studying the english literature in leaving cert. Writing stories are cool though and writing other items in the leaving cert where you can express yourself and be creative, letting your imagination run wild, its just class. Then again that's just me, some people just don't have a flare for English compared to some. Depending what career paths they wish to go for like journalism, writers, music writers, poets, broadcasting and media communications. Although, no matter what course you do after your leaving cert you'd have to have a decent command of english how else will you get your point across when writing an essay/creating something/project/written exams? How you come across in an interview/socially/working life/how well you communicate with friends and family etc.

The one thing I would suggest they focus on in the leaving cert is grammar and technical writing which I think is very important when it comes to the world of work and every day activities. There is no knowing how many simple grammar mistakes that some people can make. Being clear and concise and getting your point across as well as presenting yourself by speaking well can do wonders for anyone.

Dudess

Dudess wrote: »

I think ALL leaving cert subjects should be made non mandatory - there should be mandatory subjects prior to that though. Re English specifically: grammar, punctuation, spelling should be learned long before leaving cert. And English at leaving cert level doesn't seem to be preventing the scourge of text-speak.

Me too. The school I went to offered a number of different modules in transition year, introducing various leaving cert subjects to students throughout three semesters. On that basis I picked out my LC courses for 5th and 6th year. I dont think there should be a blanket requirement from universities for students to have English, Irish and Maths. It should be course dependent (e.g Biology for medicine, maths for science and engineering and so forth).

By all means keep a group of core subjects compulsory up to Junior Cert level, but afterwards respect the choices of the LC students and allow them to study what they want.

krudler

make english, irish and maths compulsory after JC.

Make driving a car, learning how to use a computer properly and how to hold your drink mandatory for all teenagers.

HavingCrack

Get rid of all compulsory subjects for the Leaving Cert, whether they are in fact officially compulsory or de facto. I would prefer if we borrowed some elements of the AS and A Levels they currently use in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Pick any 5 (rather than 3, I feel 3 is too narrow) subjects you have studied for Junior Certificate that you wish to study for Leaving Cert. Then split the Leaving Cert exam into two halves, 40% of your exam would occur at the end of 5th year and 60% at the end of 6th year. People would choose the subjects they wish to study and if 3rd level institutions specify specific subjects for specific courses eg higher level maths for engineering and biology for nursing people are made aware of this.

I can safely say that the Maths, English and Irish I studied until my Junior Cert was sufficent for daily tasks in everyday life. Clearly if you wish to study Maths at college, choosing Maths as one of your 5 subjects would be necessary but requiring Maths to study English and History , no sense at all.

Nadser

I think that if you are going to retain compulsory subjects, it should be either Irish or English.

amacachi

Dudess wrote: »

I think ALL leaving cert subjects should be made non mandatory - there should be mandatory subjects prior to that though. Re English specifically: grammar, punctuation, spelling should be learned long before leaving cert. And English at leaving cert level doesn't seem to be preventing the scourge of text-speak.

In the LC the most one can lose is 10% for bad spelling etc. The worst thing is that the maximum that can be gotten is only given in line with the rest of the mark. So if you write a decent essay and get say 72/90 for the rest you still only get 8/10 for mechanics, even if it's perfect. There's almost no marks going for it.

Oranage2

Is maith liom cáis!

ballsymchugh

snuggles285 wrote: »

To be honest OP, I don't think it would be fair to scrap English. Everyone needs a good command of the English language when it comes to careers and every day life. You couldn't go anywhere without it really?
The only thing is that they could adjust whats on the paper that's all I would say. Learning reams and reams of poetry, prose and other items on the paper could be be reduced or made more fun. Its interesting though learning about a book/play/authors bios is worth knowing but when it comes to the likes of shakespere and the likes then maybe that could be scrapped as it might not benefit people that much. Though comprehension and understanding is what you achieve when studying the english literature in leaving cert. Writing stories are cool though and writing other items in the leaving cert where you can express yourself and be creative, letting your imagination run wild, its just class. Then again that's just me, some people just don't have a flare for English compared to some. Depending what career paths they wish to go for like journalism, writers, music writers, poets, broadcasting and media communications. Although, no matter what course you do after your leaving cert you'd have to have a decent command of english how else will you get your point across when writing an essay/creating something/project/written exams? How you come across in an interview/socially/working life/how well you communicate with friends and family etc.

The one thing I would suggest they focus on in the leaving cert is grammar and technical writing which I think is very important when it comes to the world of work and every day activities. There is no knowing how many simple grammar mistakes that some people can make. Being clear and concise and getting your point across as well as presenting yourself by speaking well can do wonders for anyone.

you really don't need to have a grasp of poetry or the arts to have a conversation with your friends and family. and the rest of the above can be done with a decent junior cert curriculum.

rainbow kirby

I don't see the point in forcing everyone to study literature beyond JC level (I'm slightly biased here though as a huge maths and science geek who would have much preferred to focus on those subjects), but I do believe that some sort of writing course should be compulsory for LC, with a focus on technical writing and business communication.

Wibbs

HavingCrack wrote: »

Get rid of all compulsory subjects for the Leaving Cert, whether they are in fact officially compulsory or de facto. I would prefer if we borrowed some elements of the AS and A Levels they currently use in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Pick any 5 (rather than 3, I feel 3 is too narrow) subjects you have studied for Junior Certificate that you wish to study for Leaving Cert. Then split the Leaving Cert exam into two halves, 40% of your exam would occur at the end of 5th year and 60% at the end of 6th year. People would choose the subjects they wish to study and if 3rd level institutions specify specific subjects for specific courses eg higher level maths for engineering and biology for nursing people are made aware of this.

This. Irish, English or maths should be at as good a level as the individual is going to get by the JC. If said individual has a talent or love for the subject, let them choose after that. Or if they couldnt be arsed then fine, let them attack the other subjects to a higher level.

tolosenc

AFAIK, the only subject for which you need a formal exemption at Leaving Cert level is Irish. English and Maths are, as such, non compulsory as it stands. You won't get into college with out them though.

There is more to a language than just its grammar rules, so people saying do away with that aspect because "you don't need it" are just copping out. I mean, I could have stopped taking maths at 8, because I could multiply, divide, add and subtract at that age, and that's all I really ever need to use...

Buceph

Bollocks to the suggestion it be dropped. And good on the universities for demanding it.

There's a certain level of education that should be expected from the majority of people, vocational, rational and cultural, and all of these things should be expected for an adult. If you think studying one of the masters of the English language, or the themes of joy, love or despair are irrelevant to you, you're a very sorry person, especially as these are broader exercises in getting you to address with language your varied feelings and thoughts. Something that's absolutely necessary

Maths sets you up with logic.
English teaches you how to function in the anglophone world.

Both help you towards a mastery of erudite thought that is needed for everything. That's why both are necessary to even begin a university education. And that's why both should be thought to everyone to a level beyond being able to write a coherent, structured sentence.

Unfortunately Irish teaching has broadly failed. And that's why people are talking about getting rid of it. Not because it has no value, but because it's value has been lost.

Killer Pigeon

I just don't understand why you should have to do Irish if you have no intention on using it in the future. However, I think at least one popular foreign language (like French, German or Spanish ... even Chinese) should be compulsory as you're more likely to need it at some point in the future compared to a language like Irish that's only spoken by 30,000 people daily.

Also OP, I don't think your argument is relevant when it comes to English. English is spoken by over 90% of the county and a good command of the language is needed in nearly all workplaces, written and oral.

Irish Guitarist

Instead of testing children on their knowledge of Shakespeare, the Department Of Education should make sure children know the very basics of grammar and spelling. I think this is more important than learning about Romeo and Juliet.

How the hell do so many people leave school thinking that 'alot' and 'aswell' are words? I really don't get it. This was never an issue for me. Even at the age of seven I didn't think that 'alot' was a word.

Irish Guitarist

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

Instead of testing children on their knowledge of Shakespeare, the Department Of Education should make sure children know the very basics of grammar and spelling. I think this is more important than learning about Romeo and Juliet.

How the hell do so many people leave school thinking that 'alot' and 'aswell' are words? I really don't get it. This was never an issue for me. Even at the age of seven I didn't think that 'alot' was a word.

And you know the difference between been and being, I'll bet

ballsymchugh

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Also OP, I don't think your argument is relevant when it comes to English. English is spoken by over 90% of the county and a good command of the language is needed in nearly all workplaces, written and oral.

you don't need a good command of shakespeare or half the poetry in soundings to survive and do well in nearly all workplaces, unless that is, you want to be an english teacher/journalist/actor.

come to think of it, alison o'riordan survives without a good knowledge of written language!

Bbbbolger

As a current Leaving Cert student, I feel the English course should be split into two. The first course would be English grammar, spelling and the basic mehanics of the language. In this course you could include things like how to write a CV and a letter (I know the demand for letters these days is small but in my opinion its still a valuable skill). This course would not be examined in the Leaving Cert however it would be compulsary for all students.

The second course would be an optional course. It would include creative writing, functional writing, poetry, film and drama. The most emphasis would be on the actual creative aspect and expressing yourself in whatever form of writing appeals to you most. This subject would be an official exam subject and would be mandatory for entry into courses such as journalism or drama.

orourkeda

ballsymchugh wrote: »

Going from the thread on Fine Gael's policy for Irish..

At the moment, unless you have an exemption, the Dept of Education requires that you have Irish, and other subjects from a list to pass your LC. Irish isn't a requirement to get into 3rd level though.
However, it is a requirement by the Universities, along with Maths, to gain a place in college, so it becomes compulsory by default to the majority of those who do the LC.

with a lot of posters on the other thread going on about how little consequence it would be if Irish was dropped, since they don't need it for everyday life, then by that logic, what's the point in LC english?
since i did the leaving in '96 (repeated in 97 without english), i've had zero need to remember Hamlet, Kinsella, Yeats and all. I couldn't give a toss about Emma, and i don't need to discuss the plot or characters in a book to appreciate it.
for everyday life, the vast majority of us can survive on grammar learned in primary school. that may change with txtspk soon enough though.

so, if there's a debate on compulsory irish, shouldn't there be a debate on compulsory english?

No compulsory subject for the LC is the most reasonable approach.

The same applies to irish and mathematics

citizen_p

http://lolpics.se/pics/482.jpg


op pointed out why english should be cumpulsory in first post, we dont use irish 97% of the time (more like 99.9 imo) bit instead we use what? ENGLISH

cornbb

The OP has a point. If there's a debate to end compulsory Irish, why not a debate to end compulsory everything?

I think that after the JC, no one subject should be compulsory. How about the following:

Student should have to choose from one each of the following categories:

1. A subject that involves creative thinking and good writing skills, e.g. English, Irish or History

2. A modern EU language, e.g. French, German

3. A technical/scientific subject, e.g. Maths, physics, chemistry or biology.

And choose the rest as they please. That would make sure LC students are proficient in a broad range of topics, while allowing some leeway for their own personal skills/preferences.

Killer Pigeon

ballsymchugh wrote: »

you don't need a good command of shakespeare or half the poetry in soundings to survive and do well in nearly all workplaces, unless that is, you want to be an english teacher/journalist/actor.

come to think of it, alison o'riordan survives without a good knowledge of written language!

But the language will begin to dumb down! People will begin to speak gombeen English! Imagine sending inarticulate politicians abroad to represent the country - it be even worse than sending Bertie :eek:

iguana

HavingCrack wrote: »

I can safely say that the Maths, English and Irish I studied until my Junior Cert was sufficent for daily tasks in everyday life. Clearly if you wish to study Maths at college, choosing Maths as one of your 5 subjects would be necessary but requiring Maths to study English and History , no sense at all.

As well as just not making any sense, it's counter-productive. Classes would be much more productive if the only students there were enthusiastic about the subjects.

That said I would very much like to see much more interconnectivity in school subjects. For example we were doing geometry in maths at the same time as we were doing medieval and renaissance architecture. While our history teachers were telling us to marvel at the amazing ability of cathedral builders, our maths teachers were teaching us maths without showing us what use that maths is put to in the real world. Why we couldn't be shown how geometry was put to use in building I'll never know? It would have made our education much richer and we could have been given projects like "designing" a building on paper in a gothic style using maths to show how the structure would be supported and art, history and religion to show the artistic look.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Yeah that and maths should be dropped. JC level is sufficient for the vast majority of university courses.

Really hat should happen is the Junior cert is given more recognition(maybe complete it a year later with more to learn) and then make the LC optional.

Basically copy the British system

JohnMearsheimer

I really liked English in school so I'd lean towards keeping it compulsory. I found studying English literature and poetry great for helping me learn to read between the lines and pick up on what is not being said....if that makes any sense.

Up-n-atom!

I'd agree with what some other posters are saying and keep English with a bit more emphasis on grammar etc. I think a bit of revision every now and again would suffice, as most people do plenty of grammar in primary school and then just forget it over the course of their secondary education because it's never reinforced.

The overall problem with the system at the moment is that everything is so exam-oriented that there's little scope to make learning interesting or valuable/applicable for real-life. Irish and Maths get criticised, but it's the same for pretty every subject, with teachers rushing to get the curiculum finished as soon as they can rather than making classes engaging (for the most part).

Chaotic_Forces

If we didn't have to write about 10 A4 pages in the space of about 2.5 hours, I'd be a happy man and would have actually bothered to do well in the exam.

I think it should be optional up till fourth year and, if you still are doing really, really bad, you should have to continue on with it (but not to the level of learning Yeats and whatnot, just so you have a good grasp of the language).

aDeener

Mousey- wrote: »

http://lolpics.se/pics/482.jpg


op pointed out why english should be cumpulsory in first post, we dont use irish 97% of the time (more like 99.9 imo) bit instead we use what? ENGLISH

congratulations on completely missing the point.

how often do you use the comparative study or discuss the importance of the poetry of sylvia plath?

it's complete bollox

ballsymchugh

Mousey- wrote: »

http://lolpics.se/pics/482.jpg


op pointed out why english should be cumpulsory in first post, we dont use irish 97% of the time (more like 99.9 imo) bit instead we use what? ENGLISH

as i found out in the first post, if you want to take the piss in this thread, your english would want to be of a good standard!

do you think that people in the gaeltacht areas go around referring to 'caislean óir' or 'toraíocht diarmuid agus gráinne' to communicate?
i think the point has drifted way over your head.

Bottle_of_Smoke

JohnMearsheimer wrote: »

I really liked English Physics in school so I'd lean towards keeping it compulsory. I found studying English literature planetary motion and poetryparticle physics great for helping me learn to read between the lines and pick up on what is not being said observed...if that makes any sense.

Pretty sure every subject could argue it should be compulsory on this kind of premise.

ArtSmart

ballsymchugh wrote: »

Going from the thread on Fine Gael's policy for Irish..

At the moment, unless you have an exemption, the Dept of Education requires that you have Irish, and other subjects from a list to pass your LC. Irish isn't a requirement to get into 3rd level though.
However, it is a requirement by the Universities, along with Maths, to gain a place in college, so it becomes compulsory by default to the majority of those who do the LC.

with a lot of posters on the other thread going on about how little consequence it would be if Irish was dropped, since they don't need it for everyday life, then by that logic, what's the point in LC english?
since i did the leaving in '96 (repeated in 97 without english), i've had zero need to remember Hamlet, Kinsella, Yeats and all. I couldn't give a toss about Emma, and i don't need to discuss the plot or characters in a book to appreciate it.
for everyday life, the vast majority of us can survive on grammar learned in primary school. that may change with txtspk soon enough though.

so, if there's a debate on compulsory irish, shouldn't there be a debate on compulsory english?

no.

ArtSmart

ejmaztec wrote: »

No.

oops. should have read the first reply.

ArtSmart

Dudess wrote: »

I think ALL leaving cert subjects should be made non mandatory - there should be mandatory subjects prior to that though. Re English specifically: grammar, punctuation, spelling should be learned long before leaving cert. And English at leaving cert level doesn't seem to be preventing the scourge of text-speak.

have to say irish students are being hard done by.

for 600 points a UK student need only do four subjects at A level (which is roughly = to 1st yr uni level)

here it's 6(at pre-uni level), plus pass Irish if Irish aint your thing, plus pass foreign language, if language aint your thing.

so we get a 'broad' education but with limited depth.

personally i favour an extra year for junior for the 'broad' bit, then 2 years at A level. but that's just me.

ArtSmart

ballsymchugh wrote: »

maths isn't compulsory, like english it's become that way by default, as a requirement for entry to college. but it's not compulsory to pass the leaving. i would make it fully compulsory though.

not true, unless the rules have changed recently.

only Irish and foreign language are compulsory (in Trinity Irish is not compulsory)

maths is required for specific degree subjects - eg Engineering, Science, Architecture

English might be required for some, cant be sure, but twould be a foolish person who didnt have it and a foolish uni that didnt insist upon it.

ArtSmart

rainbow kirby wrote: »

I don't see the point in forcing everyone to study literature beyond JC level (I'm slightly biased here though as a huge maths and science geek who would have much preferred to focus on those subjects), but I do believe that some sort of writing course should be compulsory for LC, with a focus on technical writing and business communication.

There seems to be a misunderstanding as to the function of English.

English is taught to develop reasoning/ critical assessment , problem solving, situation analysis and psychological evaluation.

yessir.



(course, students arent told that, or they'd enjoy it too much)