End compulsory english for the Leaving Cert?

ballsymchugh · 19-02-2011 04:41PM #1

Going from the thread on Fine Gael's policy for Irish..

At the moment, unless you have an exemption, the Dept of Education requires that you have Irish, and other subjects from a list to pass your LC. Irish isn't a requirement to get into 3rd level though.
However, it is a requirement by the Universities, along with Maths, to gain a place in college, so it becomes compulsory by default to the majority of those who do the LC.

with a lot of posters on the other thread going on about how little consequence it would be if Irish was dropped, since they don't need it for everyday life, then by that logic, what's the point in LC english?
since i did the leaving in '96 (repeated in 97 without english), i've had zero need to remember Hamlet, Kinsella, Yeats and all. I couldn't give a toss about Emma, and i don't need to discuss the plot or characters in a book to appreciate it.
for everyday life, the vast majority of us can survive on grammar learned in primary school. that may change with txtspk soon enough though.

so, if there's a debate on compulsory irish, shouldn't there be a debate on compulsory english?

ejmaztec · 19-02-2011 04:42PM

ballsymchugh wrote: »

Going from the thread on Fine Gael's policy for Irish..

At the moment, unless you have an exemption, the Dept of Education requires that you have Irish, and other subjects from a list to pass your LC. Irish isn't a requirement to get into 3rd level though.
However, it is a requirement by the Universities, along with Maths, to gain a place in college, so it becomes compulsory by default to the majority of those who do the LC.

with a lot of posters on the other thread going on about how little consequence it would be if Irish was dropped, since they don't need it for everyday life, then by that logic, what's the point in LC english?
since i did the leaving in '96 (repeated in 97 without english), i've had zero need to remember Hamlet, Kinsella, Yeats and all. I couldn't give a toss about Emma, and i don't need to discuss the plot or characters in a book to appreciate it.
for everyday life, the vast majority of us can survive on grammar learned in primary school. that may change with txtspk soon enough though.

so, if there's a debate on compulsory irish, shouldn't there be a debate on compulsory engish?

No.

FatherLen · 19-02-2011 04:43PM

whats next? end compulsory maths?!?

19-02-2011 04:43PM

ballsymchugh wrote: »

for everyday life, the vast majority of us can survive on grammar learned in primary school. that may change with txtspk soon enough though.

Judging by the spelling & grammar of most people, they didn't learn any in primary school.

ballsymchugh · 19-02-2011 04:43PM

ejmaztec wrote: »

No.

ah tits!:D

Patri · 19-02-2011 04:46PM

If the language evolves into "txt speak" I'm blaming you OP. Oh and what do you mean we learn what we use in primary school?? The basics maybe, but no proper expression.

Dudess · 19-02-2011 04:46PM

I think ALL leaving cert subjects should be made non mandatory - there should be mandatory subjects prior to that though. Re English specifically: grammar, punctuation, spelling should be learned long before leaving cert. And English at leaving cert level doesn't seem to be preventing the scourge of text-speak.

ballsymchugh · 19-02-2011 04:47PM

FatherLen wrote: »

whats next? end compulsory maths?!?

maths isn't compulsory, like english it's become that way by default, as a requirement for entry to college. but it's not compulsory to pass the leaving. i would make it fully compulsory though.

frisbeeface · 19-02-2011 04:49PM

Dudess wrote: »

I think ALL leaving cert subjects should be made non mandatory. It's a crap system.

Agreed.

LC English is just about literature and creative writing. It's assumed everyone has acquired literacy by that point. So no reason it should be mandatory. I do think it should be taught better up until that point though, same as Irish, and the same for Maths.

deise go deo · 19-02-2011 04:49PM

English, Maths and Irish are core subjects for the LC, I think that all three should be retained as core subjects for the LC and that all three should be restructured to ensure the best results possible for the time spent on them.

heyjude · 19-02-2011 04:51PM

I thought it had been confirmed that Irish was the only compulsory subject for the Leaving Cert and therefore the question you've posed about whether we should "end compulsory english for the Leaving Cert" is irrelevant, since it isn't currently compulsory.

dlofnep · 19-02-2011 04:52PM

All three should remain as core subjects - but on a constitutional basis, if Irish is optional then so should English. Both languages should be given the same treatment as set out in Article 8.

ballsymchugh · 19-02-2011 04:53PM

heyjude wrote: »

I thought it had been confirmed that Irish was the only compulsory subject for the Leaving Cert and therefore the question you've posed about whether we should "end compulsory english for the Leaving Cert" is irrelevant, since it isn't currently compulsory.

it's become compulsory by default, along with maths as entry requirements to third level.

galwayrush · 19-02-2011 04:55PM

So, what good is being able to speak the English language anyways?:pac::pac:

LambsEye · 19-02-2011 04:55PM

Since I only LOVED English in school I personally would say no. But I did have friends who had no business for comparative literature or creative writing, and that's fair enough.

If they were to make the English subject optional then they SHOULD make a revised English curriculum compulsory. In my opinion Spelling, vocabulary, grammar and punctuation should be mandatory right up to the end. If they want to take out the flowery aspects of the course then that'd be cool, but darn it people NEED to know how to speak and write properly.

ejmaztec · 19-02-2011 04:55PM

ballsymchugh wrote: »

ah tits!:D

That'll lurn ya:P

Jazzy · 19-02-2011 04:56PM

i say make english even more compulsory if possible. hopefully people actually get standards instead of putting up with X-Factor and dave mcsavage

starlit · 19-02-2011 04:57PM

To be honest OP, I don't think it would be fair to scrap English. Everyone needs a good command of the English language when it comes to careers and every day life. You couldn't go anywhere without it really?
The only thing is that they could adjust whats on the paper that's all I would say. Learning reams and reams of poetry, prose and other items on the paper could be be reduced or made more fun. Its interesting though learning about a book/play/authors bios is worth knowing but when it comes to the likes of shakespere and the likes then maybe that could be scrapped as it might not benefit people that much. Though comprehension and understanding is what you achieve when studying the english literature in leaving cert. Writing stories are cool though and writing other items in the leaving cert where you can express yourself and be creative, letting your imagination run wild, its just class. Then again that's just me, some people just don't have a flare for English compared to some. Depending what career paths they wish to go for like journalism, writers, music writers, poets, broadcasting and media communications. Although, no matter what course you do after your leaving cert you'd have to have a decent command of english how else will you get your point across when writing an essay/creating something/project/written exams? How you come across in an interview/socially/working life/how well you communicate with friends and family etc.

The one thing I would suggest they focus on in the leaving cert is grammar and technical writing which I think is very important when it comes to the world of work and every day activities. There is no knowing how many simple grammar mistakes that some people can make. Being clear and concise and getting your point across as well as presenting yourself by speaking well can do wonders for anyone.

19-02-2011 04:58PM

Dudess wrote: »

I think ALL leaving cert subjects should be made non mandatory - there should be mandatory subjects prior to that though. Re English specifically: grammar, punctuation, spelling should be learned long before leaving cert. And English at leaving cert level doesn't seem to be preventing the scourge of text-speak.

Me too. The school I went to offered a number of different modules in transition year, introducing various leaving cert subjects to students throughout three semesters. On that basis I picked out my LC courses for 5th and 6th year. I dont think there should be a blanket requirement from universities for students to have English, Irish and Maths. It should be course dependent (e.g Biology for medicine, maths for science and engineering and so forth).

By all means keep a group of core subjects compulsory up to Junior Cert level, but afterwards respect the choices of the LC students and allow them to study what they want.

krudler · 19-02-2011 05:02PM

make english, irish and maths compulsory after JC.

Make driving a car, learning how to use a computer properly and how to hold your drink mandatory for all teenagers.

HavingCrack · 19-02-2011 05:03PM

Get rid of all compulsory subjects for the Leaving Cert, whether they are in fact officially compulsory or de facto. I would prefer if we borrowed some elements of the AS and A Levels they currently use in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Pick any 5 (rather than 3, I feel 3 is too narrow) subjects you have studied for Junior Certificate that you wish to study for Leaving Cert. Then split the Leaving Cert exam into two halves, 40% of your exam would occur at the end of 5th year and 60% at the end of 6th year. People would choose the subjects they wish to study and if 3rd level institutions specify specific subjects for specific courses eg higher level maths for engineering and biology for nursing people are made aware of this.

I can safely say that the Maths, English and Irish I studied until my Junior Cert was sufficent for daily tasks in everyday life. Clearly if you wish to study Maths at college, choosing Maths as one of your 5 subjects would be necessary but requiring Maths to study English and History

, no sense at all.

Nadser · 19-02-2011 05:03PM

I think that if you are going to retain compulsory subjects, it should be either Irish or English.

amacachi · 19-02-2011 05:06PM

Dudess wrote: »

I think ALL leaving cert subjects should be made non mandatory - there should be mandatory subjects prior to that though. Re English specifically: grammar, punctuation, spelling should be learned long before leaving cert. And English at leaving cert level doesn't seem to be preventing the scourge of text-speak.

In the LC the most one can lose is 10% for bad spelling etc. The worst thing is that the maximum that can be gotten is only given in line with the rest of the mark. So if you write a decent essay and get say 72/90 for the rest you still only get 8/10 for mechanics, even if it's perfect. There's almost no marks going for it.

Oranage2 · 19-02-2011 05:11PM

Is maith liom cáis!

ballsymchugh · 19-02-2011 05:15PM

snuggles285 wrote: »

To be honest OP, I don't think it would be fair to scrap English. Everyone needs a good command of the English language when it comes to careers and every day life. You couldn't go anywhere without it really?
The only thing is that they could adjust whats on the paper that's all I would say. Learning reams and reams of poetry, prose and other items on the paper could be be reduced or made more fun. Its interesting though learning about a book/play/authors bios is worth knowing but when it comes to the likes of shakespere and the likes then maybe that could be scrapped as it might not benefit people that much. Though comprehension and understanding is what you achieve when studying the english literature in leaving cert. Writing stories are cool though and writing other items in the leaving cert where you can express yourself and be creative, letting your imagination run wild, its just class. Then again that's just me, some people just don't have a flare for English compared to some. Depending what career paths they wish to go for like journalism, writers, music writers, poets, broadcasting and media communications. Although, no matter what course you do after your leaving cert you'd have to have a decent command of english how else will you get your point across when writing an essay/creating something/project/written exams? How you come across in an interview/socially/working life/how well you communicate with friends and family etc.

The one thing I would suggest they focus on in the leaving cert is grammar and technical writing which I think is very important when it comes to the world of work and every day activities. There is no knowing how many simple grammar mistakes that some people can make. Being clear and concise and getting your point across as well as presenting yourself by speaking well can do wonders for anyone.

you really don't need to have a grasp of poetry or the arts to have a conversation with your friends and family. and the rest of the above can be done with a decent junior cert curriculum.

rainbow kirby · 19-02-2011 05:49PM

I don't see the point in forcing everyone to study literature beyond JC level (I'm slightly biased here though as a huge maths and science geek who would have much preferred to focus on those subjects), but I do believe that some sort of writing course should be compulsory for LC, with a focus on technical writing and business communication.

Wibbs · 19-02-2011 05:53PM

HavingCrack wrote: »

Get rid of all compulsory subjects for the Leaving Cert, whether they are in fact officially compulsory or de facto. I would prefer if we borrowed some elements of the AS and A Levels they currently use in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Pick any 5 (rather than 3, I feel 3 is too narrow) subjects you have studied for Junior Certificate that you wish to study for Leaving Cert. Then split the Leaving Cert exam into two halves, 40% of your exam would occur at the end of 5th year and 60% at the end of 6th year. People would choose the subjects they wish to study and if 3rd level institutions specify specific subjects for specific courses eg higher level maths for engineering and biology for nursing people are made aware of this.

This. Irish, English or maths should be at as good a level as the individual is going to get by the JC. If said individual has a talent or love for the subject, let them choose after that. Or if they couldnt be arsed then fine, let them attack the other subjects to a higher level.

tolosenc · 19-02-2011 05:57PM

AFAIK, the only subject for which you need a formal exemption at Leaving Cert level is Irish. English and Maths are, as such, non compulsory as it stands. You won't get into college with out them though.

There is more to a language than just its grammar rules, so people saying do away with that aspect because "you don't need it" are just copping out. I mean, I could have stopped taking maths at 8, because I could multiply, divide, add and subtract at that age, and that's all I really ever need to use...

Buceph · 19-02-2011 06:04PM

Bollocks to the suggestion it be dropped. And good on the universities for demanding it.

There's a certain level of education that should be expected from the majority of people, vocational, rational and cultural, and all of these things should be expected for an adult. If you think studying one of the masters of the English language, or the themes of joy, love or despair are irrelevant to you, you're a very sorry person, especially as these are broader exercises in getting you to address with language your varied feelings and thoughts. Something that's absolutely necessary

Maths sets you up with logic.
English teaches you how to function in the anglophone world.

Both help you towards a mastery of erudite thought that is needed for everything. That's why both are necessary to even begin a university education. And that's why both should be thought to everyone to a level beyond being able to write a coherent, structured sentence.

Unfortunately Irish teaching has broadly failed. And that's why people are talking about getting rid of it. Not because it has no value, but because it's value has been lost.

Killer Pigeon · 19-02-2011 06:10PM

I just don't understand why you should have to do Irish if you have no intention on using it in the future. However, I think at least one popular foreign language (like French, German or Spanish ... even Chinese) should be compulsory as you're more likely to need it at some point in the future compared to a language like Irish that's only spoken by 30,000 people daily.

Also OP, I don't think your argument is relevant when it comes to English. English is spoken by over 90% of the county and a good command of the language is needed in nearly all workplaces, written and oral.

Irish Guitarist · 19-02-2011 06:48PM

Instead of testing children on their knowledge of Shakespeare, the Department Of Education should make sure children know the very basics of grammar and spelling. I think this is more important than learning about Romeo and Juliet.

How the hell do so many people leave school thinking that 'alot' and 'aswell' are words? I really don't get it. This was never an issue for me. Even at the age of seven I didn't think that 'alot' was a word.

End compulsory english for the Leaving Cert?

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