End compulsory english for the Leaving Cert?

19-02-2011 06:54PM

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

Instead of testing children on their knowledge of Shakespeare, the Department Of Education should make sure children know the very basics of grammar and spelling. I think this is more important than learning about Romeo and Juliet.

How the hell do so many people leave school thinking that 'alot' and 'aswell' are words? I really don't get it. This was never an issue for me. Even at the age of seven I didn't think that 'alot' was a word.

And you know the difference between been and being, I'll bet

ballsymchugh · 19-02-2011 07:24PM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Also OP, I don't think your argument is relevant when it comes to English. English is spoken by over 90% of the county and a good command of the language is needed in nearly all workplaces, written and oral.

you don't need a good command of shakespeare or half the poetry in soundings to survive and do well in nearly all workplaces, unless that is, you want to be an english teacher/journalist/actor.

come to think of it, alison o'riordan survives without a good knowledge of written language!

Bbbbolger · 19-02-2011 07:47PM

As a current Leaving Cert student, I feel the English course should be split into two. The first course would be English grammar, spelling and the basic mehanics of the language. In this course you could include things like how to write a CV and a letter (I know the demand for letters these days is small but in my opinion its still a valuable skill). This course would not be examined in the Leaving Cert however it would be compulsary for all students.

The second course would be an optional course. It would include creative writing, functional writing, poetry, film and drama. The most emphasis would be on the actual creative aspect and expressing yourself in whatever form of writing appeals to you most. This subject would be an official exam subject and would be mandatory for entry into courses such as journalism or drama.

orourkeda · 19-02-2011 07:55PM

ballsymchugh wrote: »

Going from the thread on Fine Gael's policy for Irish..

At the moment, unless you have an exemption, the Dept of Education requires that you have Irish, and other subjects from a list to pass your LC. Irish isn't a requirement to get into 3rd level though.
However, it is a requirement by the Universities, along with Maths, to gain a place in college, so it becomes compulsory by default to the majority of those who do the LC.

with a lot of posters on the other thread going on about how little consequence it would be if Irish was dropped, since they don't need it for everyday life, then by that logic, what's the point in LC english?
since i did the leaving in '96 (repeated in 97 without english), i've had zero need to remember Hamlet, Kinsella, Yeats and all. I couldn't give a toss about Emma, and i don't need to discuss the plot or characters in a book to appreciate it.
for everyday life, the vast majority of us can survive on grammar learned in primary school. that may change with txtspk soon enough though.

so, if there's a debate on compulsory irish, shouldn't there be a debate on compulsory english?

No compulsory subject for the LC is the most reasonable approach.

The same applies to irish and mathematics

citizen_p · 19-02-2011 08:01PM

http://lolpics.se/pics/482.jpg

op pointed out why english should be cumpulsory in first post, we dont use irish 97% of the time (more like 99.9 imo) bit instead we use what? ENGLISH

cornbb · 19-02-2011 08:06PM

The OP has a point. If there's a debate to end compulsory Irish, why not a debate to end compulsory everything?

I think that after the JC, no one subject should be compulsory. How about the following:

Student should have to choose from one each of the following categories:

1. A subject that involves creative thinking and good writing skills, e.g. English, Irish or History

2. A modern EU language, e.g. French, German

3. A technical/scientific subject, e.g. Maths, physics, chemistry or biology.

And choose the rest as they please. That would make sure LC students are proficient in a broad range of topics, while allowing some leeway for their own personal skills/preferences.

Killer Pigeon · 19-02-2011 08:25PM

ballsymchugh wrote: »

you don't need a good command of shakespeare or half the poetry in soundings to survive and do well in nearly all workplaces, unless that is, you want to be an english teacher/journalist/actor.

come to think of it, alison o'riordan survives without a good knowledge of written language!

But the language will begin to dumb down! People will begin to speak gombeen English! Imagine sending inarticulate politicians abroad to represent the country - it be even worse than sending Bertie :eek:

iguana · 19-02-2011 08:42PM

HavingCrack wrote: »

I can safely say that the Maths, English and Irish I studied until my Junior Cert was sufficent for daily tasks in everyday life. Clearly if you wish to study Maths at college, choosing Maths as one of your 5 subjects would be necessary but requiring Maths to study English and History , no sense at all.

As well as just not making any sense, it's counter-productive. Classes would be much more productive if the only students there were enthusiastic about the subjects.

That said I would very much like to see much more interconnectivity in school subjects. For example we were doing geometry in maths at the same time as we were doing medieval and renaissance architecture. While our history teachers were telling us to marvel at the amazing ability of cathedral builders, our maths teachers were teaching us maths without showing us what use that maths is put to in the real world. Why we couldn't be shown how geometry was put to use in building I'll never know? It would have made our education much richer and we could have been given projects like "designing" a building on paper in a gothic style using maths to show how the structure would be supported and art, history and religion to show the artistic look.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 19-02-2011 08:54PM

Yeah that and maths should be dropped. JC level is sufficient for the vast majority of university courses.

Really hat should happen is the Junior cert is given more recognition(maybe complete it a year later with more to learn) and then make the LC optional.

Basically copy the British system

JohnMearsheimer · 19-02-2011 09:15PM

I really liked English in school so I'd lean towards keeping it compulsory. I found studying English literature and poetry great for helping me learn to read between the lines and pick up on what is not being said....if that makes any sense.

Up-n-atom! · 19-02-2011 09:25PM

I'd agree with what some other posters are saying and keep English with a bit more emphasis on grammar etc. I think a bit of revision every now and again would suffice, as most people do plenty of grammar in primary school and then just forget it over the course of their secondary education because it's never reinforced.

The overall problem with the system at the moment is that everything is so exam-oriented that there's little scope to make learning interesting or valuable/applicable for real-life. Irish and Maths get criticised, but it's the same for pretty every subject, with teachers rushing to get the curiculum finished as soon as they can rather than making classes engaging (for the most part).

Chaotic_Forces · 19-02-2011 09:57PM

If we didn't have to write about 10 A4 pages in the space of about 2.5 hours, I'd be a happy man and would have actually bothered to do well in the exam.

I think it should be optional up till fourth year and, if you still are doing really, really bad, you should have to continue on with it (but not to the level of learning Yeats and whatnot, just so you have a good grasp of the language).

aDeener · 19-02-2011 10:16PM

Mousey- wrote: »

http://lolpics.se/pics/482.jpg

op pointed out why english should be cumpulsory in first post, we dont use irish 97% of the time (more like 99.9 imo) bit instead we use what? ENGLISH

congratulations on completely missing the point.

how often do you use the comparative study or discuss the importance of the poetry of sylvia plath?

it's complete bollox

ballsymchugh · 19-02-2011 10:22PM

Mousey- wrote: »

http://lolpics.se/pics/482.jpg

op pointed out why english should be cumpulsory in first post, we dont use irish 97% of the time (more like 99.9 imo) bit instead we use what? ENGLISH

as i found out in the first post, if you want to take the piss in this thread, your english would want to be of a good standard!

do you think that people in the gaeltacht areas go around referring to 'caislean óir' or 'toraíocht diarmuid agus gráinne' to communicate?
i think the point has drifted way over your head.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 20-02-2011 12:58AM

JohnMearsheimer wrote: »

I really liked English Physics in school so I'd lean towards keeping it compulsory. I found studying English literature planetary motion and poetryparticle physics great for helping me learn to read between the lines and pick up on what is not being said observed...if that makes any sense.

Pretty sure every subject could argue it should be compulsory on this kind of premise.

ArtSmart · 20-02-2011 01:28AM

ballsymchugh wrote: »

Going from the thread on Fine Gael's policy for Irish..

At the moment, unless you have an exemption, the Dept of Education requires that you have Irish, and other subjects from a list to pass your LC. Irish isn't a requirement to get into 3rd level though.
However, it is a requirement by the Universities, along with Maths, to gain a place in college, so it becomes compulsory by default to the majority of those who do the LC.

with a lot of posters on the other thread going on about how little consequence it would be if Irish was dropped, since they don't need it for everyday life, then by that logic, what's the point in LC english?
since i did the leaving in '96 (repeated in 97 without english), i've had zero need to remember Hamlet, Kinsella, Yeats and all. I couldn't give a toss about Emma, and i don't need to discuss the plot or characters in a book to appreciate it.
for everyday life, the vast majority of us can survive on grammar learned in primary school. that may change with txtspk soon enough though.

so, if there's a debate on compulsory irish, shouldn't there be a debate on compulsory english?

no.

ArtSmart · 20-02-2011 01:30AM

ejmaztec wrote: »

No.

oops. should have read the first reply.

ArtSmart · 20-02-2011 01:36AM

Dudess wrote: »

I think ALL leaving cert subjects should be made non mandatory - there should be mandatory subjects prior to that though. Re English specifically: grammar, punctuation, spelling should be learned long before leaving cert. And English at leaving cert level doesn't seem to be preventing the scourge of text-speak.

have to say irish students are being hard done by.

for 600 points a UK student need only do four subjects at A level (which is roughly = to 1st yr uni level)

here it's 6(at pre-uni level), plus pass Irish if Irish aint your thing, plus pass foreign language, if language aint your thing.

so we get a 'broad' education but with limited depth.

personally i favour an extra year for junior for the 'broad' bit, then 2 years at A level. but that's just me.

ArtSmart · 20-02-2011 01:41AM

ballsymchugh wrote: »

maths isn't compulsory, like english it's become that way by default, as a requirement for entry to college. but it's not compulsory to pass the leaving. i would make it fully compulsory though.

not true, unless the rules have changed recently.

only Irish and foreign language are compulsory (in Trinity Irish is not compulsory)

maths is required for specific degree subjects - eg Engineering, Science, Architecture

English might be required for some, cant be sure, but twould be a foolish person who didnt have it and a foolish uni that didnt insist upon it.

ArtSmart · 20-02-2011 01:51AM

rainbow kirby wrote: »

I don't see the point in forcing everyone to study literature beyond JC level (I'm slightly biased here though as a huge maths and science geek who would have much preferred to focus on those subjects), but I do believe that some sort of writing course should be compulsory for LC, with a focus on technical writing and business communication.

There seems to be a misunderstanding as to the function of English.

English is taught to develop reasoning/ critical assessment , problem solving, situation analysis and psychological evaluation.

yessir.

(course, students arent told that, or they'd enjoy it too much)

ballsymchugh · 20-02-2011 01:56AM

ArtSmart wrote: »

There seems to be a misunderstanding as to the function of English.

English is taught to develop reasoning/ critical assessment , problem solving, situation analysis and psychological evaluation.

yessir.

(course, students arent told that, or they'd enjoy it too much)

thanks for that, it's actually the first argument i'd agree with for retaining it. i probably would've enjoyed it more that way!!

End compulsory english for the Leaving Cert?

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