Martin challenges Adams over IRA

ISAW

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Bertie Ahern has never been charged with anything either. Therefore Bertie Ahern is squeaky clean and never did anything wrong. :rolleyes:

Ill accept absence of evidence is is not evidence of absence but in criminal cases we assume innocence.We are talking about criminal here and not "wrong". Bertie or Haughey for that matter) were not charged with any criminal activities. People are assumed innocent until proven guilty. Adams was charged and imprisoned . Okay that was maybe British Justice and Diplock courts and all that but Ferris was as far as I know charged in the Republic and served ten years for gun running. Bertie is hardly comparable.

Bottle_of_Smoke

caseyann wrote: »

Ah i see i shall take your word for it.
I never said he didnt give his all for the republican movement.And might lead him to try get back at them for him giving up so much when they compromised and felt betrayed.
No he said and its in quote.He didnt agree with Sinn Féin political changes to acquire peace.So therefore he wasnt for the route they took which brought about peace.
I read enough and would never take away from any of them for what they did for what they believed,doest mean i am going to believe him because he said so.It is hear say.
And why would i believe Bobby sands?
If i was making this argument against you or any of the other anti SF group,you lot would be screaming proof links.
So now i am saying,prove it, links, proof come on where is it?

I don't think we'll ever get proof. However my assessment of Hughes' character leads me to the opinion he would not be vindictive in that way. He was straight up and honest in the interviews for voices from the grave/his online blog and to be honest I think he still loved Gerry despite what had happened.

He said Gerry ordered McConville's death but the only part he condemned was her being secretly buried. It appears he agreed with her being shot.

danbohan

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Maybe you should read a bit more about Brendan Hughes. He gave his all for the republican movement, even starved himself to within a week of death(have a feeling you'd take the word of Bobby Sands for some reason)

He said he didn't want to see a return to war he just believed what Sinn Fein settled for didn't justify the death and destruction the IRA campaign caused.

Brendan Hughes had no reason to lie.

if you ask any dissidents republicans for their justification in carrying on armed actions their answer will be very similar to brendan hughes ie not enough achieved

of course you can argue that micky mckevitt gave it all for the republican movement as did darky hughes but of course we have to be a bit selective in our smear campaign dont we

ISAW

Monty Burnz wrote: »

He isn't in a position to threaten his old friend and IRA hero Brendan Hughes, who I believe stated publically that Adams ordered the death of Mrs. McConville.

But why is it this is said of SF and the Official IRA are never mentioned in relation to Rabbitte Gilmore and other Labour people?

Monty Burnz

danbohan wrote: »

interesting to see unionists/ fianna failures/ using the words of a dead dissident republican to attack adams , ogh the irony

I'm neither of those.

Bottle_of_Smoke

danbohan wrote: »

if you ask any dissidents republicans for their justification in carrying on armed actions their answer will be very similar to brendan hughes ie not enough achieved

of course you can argue that micky mckevitt gave it all for the republican movement as did darky hughes but of course we have to be a bit selective in our smear campaign dont we

Do you honestly believe Gerry Adams didn't give orders to the IRA?

caseyann

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I don't think we'll ever get proof. However my assessment of Hughes' character leads me to the opinion he would not be vindictive in that way. He was straight up and honest in the interviews for voices from the grave/his online blog and to be honest I think he still loved Gerry despite what had happened.

He said Gerry ordered McConville's death but the only part he condemned was her being secretly buried. It appears he agreed with her being shot.

You have no idea what kind of personality he had,he believed was right to shoot her says enough about his character for me,and what he would do.

P.S the Irish government say they have proof so why havent they shown it,they are doing nothing more than mud slinging.

gerryo777

Jesus guys, get over it.
Gerry Adams was in the IRA, so what! Does a bear s**t in the woods, is the Pope a catholic etc etc.
I reckon if he did come out and say that he was in the IRA he would probably get a boost in his ratings.
What happened on this island is history, lets park it there and move on, the only terrorists we need to get rid of now are the economic terrorists like cowan & co. Bring on the 25th!!!!

Monty Burnz

gerryo777 wrote: »

the only terrorists we need to get rid of now are the economic terrorists like cowan & co. Bring on the 25th!!!!

Cowen is gone. That stuff is all history* now, it's in the past! Let it go and stop harking back to old wrongs - everybody made mistakes and there was pain on all sides. Vote Fianna Failure!

*if 15 years ago is ancient history for terrorism/murder, surely a few months is ancient history for incompetence and stupidity?

gerryo777

Cowan is still the taoiseach until the new government is in place, god knows what damage he'll do between now and then.
I wonder how many of his mates are getting onto quangos and getting promoted as we speak......

danbohan

gerryo777 wrote: »

Cowan is still the taoiseach until the new government is in place, god knows what damage he'll do between now and then.
I wonder how many of his mates are getting onto quangos and getting promoted as we speak......

i am sure the shredding machines are working 24/7!

Bottle_of_Smoke

ISAW wrote: »

But why is it this is said of SF and the Official IRA are never mentioned in relation to Rabbitte Gilmore and other Labour people?

As they were in OSF/Workers party after the violent element left to start IRSP/INLA.

So whilst they were in the political wing of a pretty much defunct OIRA, SF were the political wing of one of most military capable guerilla organisations on the planet.

This was of course explained to you in your Eamon Gilmore thread....

Monty Burnz

ISAW wrote: »

But why is it this is said of SF and the Official IRA are never mentioned in relation to Rabbitte Gilmore and other Labour people?

Fair point, but when did the OIRA last murder anyone?

ISAW

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

As they were in OSF/Workers party after the violent element left to start IRSP/INLA.

So whilst they were in the political wing of a pretty much defunct OIRA, SF were the political wing of one of most military capable guerilla organisations on the planet.

This was of course explained to you in your Eamon Gilmore thread....

Where I was criticised for listing dates and wher those dates co inside with OIRA terrorist actions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_Irish_Republican_Army#The_Official_IRA_since_1972

OIRA Didn't decommission until 1999!

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/tables/Organisation_Responsible.html

Considering the RIRA are listed with 29 deaths - the 52 OIRA deaths are not minor are they? and they are coincident with the SFWP membership of Rabbitte Gilmore etc. are they not? Just as Adams political membership of SF is co incident with PIRA killings.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Fair point, but when did the OIRA last murder anyone?

When Gilmore Rabbitte were members of the political wing. The point being made isn't about when but about Adams being in SF when IRA were active.

The broader point of Martin bringing this up in relation to banks, the OIRA were active in forgery, intimidation etc. right into the 1990s. Fair enough Gilmore and Rabitte split from them in the early nineties but Sinn Féin claim to be Democratic socialists just as Labour do.

johnmcdnl

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I seem to recall IRA support in the Republic in the 80s and certainly in the 90s was virtually nil. 'Revulsion' would be the word I would most closely associate with people's attitudes to their activities at the time.

so revulsive that Kieran Doherty and Paddy Agnew were elected to Dáil Eireann and several others just missed out closely..

Yes - through the late 80s and 90s support may have dwindled but at that time I'd have considered that the people who voted for these candidates were giving a vote of confidence in the IRA to some degree...

Monty Burnz

johnmcdnl wrote: »

so revulsive that Kieran Doherty and Paddy Agnew were elected to Dáil Eireann and several others just missed out closely...

I would hardly characterise two TDs getting elected during the hunger strikes as a ringing endorsement, and that was at that was in '81.

johnmcdnl wrote: »

Yes - through the late 80s and 90s support may have dwindled but at that time I'd have considered that the people who voted for these candidates were giving a vote of confidence in the IRA to some degree...

There are people out there who think Osama bin Laden is the 'box deluxe' too, but fair point. Hardly what was originally suggested earlier in the thread though, that the PIRA had the 'consent' of the people for its terrorist campaign.

Wolfe Tone

DeVore wrote: »

My grandfather was Aide De Comp to Collins. He wouldn't have spat on the modern IRA if they were on fire.

DeV.

Thats because Collins would be too busy ordering his own squad of unknowns to go and execute British spies yeah?

Wolfe Tone

caseyann wrote: »

Where did he publically say that? And you are going to take the word of someone who perhaps didnt want to make peace and was pissed off they did?Or the man who fought long and hard and saw it through?
Let me think i pick the second.;)

In 2000, he criticised the Sinn Féin leadership for allowing building firms in west Belfast to pay low wages to former prisoners and stated his belief that the republican leadership had sold out on their ideals in order to achieve peace in Northern Ireland.

danbohan wrote: »

interesting to see unionists/ fianna failures/ using the words of a dead dissident republican to attack adams , ogh the irony

For what its worth I believe the claims "The Dark" made about Jean McConville

KeithAFC

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Do you honestly believe Gerry Adams didn't give orders to the IRA?

No he doesn't. Just trying to hold face.

dolphin city

xE wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0216/1224289929770.html

Looks like Michael Martin is the first one to bring this out in this election campaign. It's almost becoming like a sort of Godwin's Law in Irish elections: the sooner it gets to election day, the increase in the likelihood that an allegation that Gerry Adams was a member of the IRA will arise.

Its a bit of a red herring at this stage, people have made their own minds up on the question (at least I have) and if he actually came out and admitted it, it would be almost like proving Santa Clause doesn't exist.

The real question is where was Micheal Martin for the last 14 years of mismanagement and corruption, bordering on the criminal?

LOL looks like mr burns miccheleeen martin is getting nervous.

dolphin city

can someone ask micheleen martin about who provided arms to the north? see what his answer is. :D oh how easily we forget

Bottle_of_Smoke

ISAW wrote: »

Where I was criticised for listing dates and wher those dates co inside with OIRA terrorist actions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_Irish_Republican_Army#The_Official_IRA_since_1972

OIRA Didn't decommission until 1999!

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/tables/Organisation_Responsible.html

Considering the RIRA are listed with 29 deaths - the 52 OIRA deaths are not minor are they? and they are coincident with the SFWP membership of Rabbitte Gilmore etc. are they not? Just as Adams political membership of SF is co incident with PIRA killings.

How many of the 52 deaths were before the INLA split from them? The significance of this point is afterwards they were pretty much constitutional. Have you read that link? It states

However, from the mid-1970s onwards the Official Republican Movement became increasingly focussed on achieving its aims through left-wing constitutional politics. This however did not stop sporadic paramilitary activity from the OIRA who on 8 September 1979 killed Hugh O'Halloran in a punishment beating in the Ballymurphy area of Belfast.[11] O' Halloran was beaten to death with hurley sticks.[12] The two OIRA men who carried out the killing turned themselves in to the RUC; both were convicted and sentenced to imprisonment in the Maze.[13] From 1981 on, Sinn Féin the Workers Party, renamed the Workers' Party the following year, had some success in the Republic of Ireland, but little in the North.

There was an increasing dichotomy between the Officials involvement in mainstream politics and retaining some military capacity, and some[who?] have suggested that from no later than 1980 or so, the Officials had no effective military capacity. In later years, some former Officials were to rise to high levels in the Republic—while a few others, formerly associated with the movement, even went on to act as advisers to David Trimble.[citation needed]"

So after the group split into INLA faction they killed one person in a punishment beating in 1979. That's dwarfed by provo killings post cease-fire.

So they killed one person after Gilmore joined the UCG republican club in 1975, which to be honest sounded like a local issue and maybe even a personal thing.

When Gilmore Rabbitte were members of the political wing. The point being made isn't about when but about Adams being in SF when IRA were active.

Rabbitte joined even later when they were the workers party

The broader point of Martin bringing this up in relation to banks, the OIRA were active in forgery, intimidation etc. right into the 1990s. Fair enough Gilmore and Rabitte split from them in the early nineties but Sinn Féin claim to be Democratic socialists just as Labour do.

Wouldn't labour say social democrats? Sinn Fein are too but may pretend to be democratic socialists not sure anymore.

johnmcdnl

johnmcdnl wrote: »

so revulsive that Kieran Doherty and Paddy Agnew were elected to Dáil Eireann and several others just missed out closely..

Yes - through the late 80s and 90s support may have dwindled but at that time I'd have considered that the people who voted for these candidates were giving a vote of confidence in the IRA to some degree...

you said that there was virtually no support at all for the "terrorists" - clearly having enough support to get 2 "terrorists" elected to the dail suggests that there was support...

these weren't political representatives - these were convicted IRA men who were in jail for bombings/shootings etc etc... not the safe peaceful representatives - these were bombers/killers and they still had enough support to get over 3% of the national vote despite only having 9 candidates in the elections...
had they enough numbers to run across the entire country who's to say they wouldn't have got 7-8% at least.. they were polling on average 15% first preferences in areas that they did run candidates - that seems to suggest a fair amount of support

and all of this was despite not being allowed any media coverage due to censorship laws

that mightn't be ringing endorsement but it was still a signal that there was more than "nil" support for IRA activities

ISAW

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

How many of the 52 deaths were before the INLA split from them? The significance of this point is afterwards they were pretty much constitutional. Have you read that link? It states
However, from the mid-1970s onwards the Official Republican Movement became increasingly focussed on achieving its aims through left-wing constitutional politics.
...

So after the group split into INLA faction they killed one person in a punishment beating in 1979. That's dwarfed by provo killings post cease-fire.

So they killed one person after Gilmore joined the UCG republican club in 1975, which to be honest sounded like a local issue and maybe even a personal thing.

and the comparison or the one or two deaths due to the OIRA is being made between Gilmore et. al. after the political wing associated with the OIRA took a constitutional line and Adams et. al. after thiose associated with the PIRA took a constitutional line. How many attacks by the PIRA since the GFA other than local and presonal associated ones?
A Hundreds?
B Dozens?
C One or two?

Hint : it isn't A or B

Rabbitte joined even later when they were the workers party

Still ... the OIRA linked tag is applicable even then. i cant win. One bunch say Im only having a go at Gilmore. others then begin to rule out Mc Manus Stagg Rabitte or anyone else I might add.

Wouldn't labour say social democrats? Sinn Fein are too but may pretend to be democratic socialists not sure anymore.

Social democrats versus democratic socialists sounds like PFJ versus JPF

DeVore

gerryo777 wrote: »

Jesus guys, get over it.
Gerry Adams was in the IRA, so what! Does a bear s**t in the woods, is the Pope a catholic etc etc.
I reckon if he did come out and say that he was in the IRA he would probably get a boost in his ratings.
What happened on this island is history, lets park it there and move on, the only terrorists we need to get rid of now are the economic terrorists like cowan & co. Bring on the 25th!!!!

Grand. Then stop going on about 1917. I mean, thats aaaages ago.

:rolleyes:



DeV.

ISAW

johnmcdnl wrote: »

you said that there was virtually no support at all for the "terrorists" - clearly having enough support to get 2 "terrorists" elected to the dail suggests that there was support...

Given they were in prison they were hardly active IRA.

these weren't political representatives - these were convicted IRA men who were in jail for bombings/shootings etc etc...

I disagree. Adams was in jail as well and claimed not to be active IRA althought in prison he represented them. and you have to take into account the death of the sitting MP and the civil rights and political status dirty protests. It was not all about supporting active IRA
to bomb innocent civilians.

And Sands wasn't really active either. He was similar to Adams. He was only arrested in the vicinity of a bombing. He may not have been directly involved in the operation but he knew the people involved.

not the safe peaceful representatives - these were bombers/killers and they still had enough support to get over 3% of the national vote despite only having 9 candidates in the elections...
had they enough numbers to run across the entire country who's to say they wouldn't have got 7-8% at least.. they were polling on average 15% first preferences in areas that they did run candidates - that seems to suggest a fair amount of support

Nah. Even after another 30 years SF are only beginning to get near 15% and probably won't get there.


and all of this was despite not being allowed any media coverage due to censorship laws

that mightn't be ringing endorsement but it was still a signal that there was more than "nil" support for IRA activities

There were certainly hundreds if not thousands North and South prepared to hide and feed IRA people and allow them meet in their houses in secret. But the same people would not necessarily support bombings of innocent civilians.

Bottle_of_Smoke

ISAW wrote: »

and the comparison or the one or two deaths due to the OIRA is being made between Gilmore et. al. after the political wing associated with the OIRA took a constitutional line and Adams et. al. after thiose associated with the PIRA took a constitutional line. How many attacks by the PIRA since the GFA other than local and presonal associated ones?
A Hundreds?
B Dozens?
C One or two?

Hint : it isn't A or B



Still ... the OIRA linked tag is applicable even then. i cant win. One bunch say Im only having a go at Gilmore. others then begin to rule out Mc Manus Stagg Rabitte or anyone else I might add.

Ok I take your point and I get what you're saying - I'd imagine the main reason in difference in attitudes is 52 deaths for the stickies vs over 1000 for the provos. Also Gilmore/Rabbitte weren't central to OIRA during the time they carried out militant attacks whereas Adams was the leader and carried coffins etc.

Social democrats versus democratic socialists sounds like PFJ versus JPF

LOL. Well I'd say democratic socialists for the likes of Eirigi or the Socialist Party but Social democrats for Sinn Fein/Labour. Sound similar but one is socialism the other's capitalism with a bit of a conscience!

ISAW

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Ok I take your point and I get what you're saying - I'd imagine the main reason in difference in attitudes is 52 deaths for the stickies vs over 1000 for the provos.

Ah but then you have to consider
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/chron/index.html
- The IRA were active since the 1920 but the OIRA only since the 1970s
- The of 1171 IRA killings 1012 were British Military and 513 civilians ~2 to 1
whereas of 52 OIRA 18 were British Military and 22 civilians ~ more civilians

Also Gilmore/Rabbitte weren't central to OIRA during the time they carried out militant attacks whereas Adams was the leader and carried coffins etc.

I haden't gotten around to "Group B" when the thread was locked.

Here's a longer thread on politics.ie
http://www.politics.ie/history/97814-lost-revolution-history-oira-workers-party-47.html

and here a poster says:
http://www.politics.ie/labour/140702-gilmore-gets-memory-jog-about-his-past-17.html#post3119605

He was clearly involved with Official Sinn Féin and they clearly had an active military wing the Official IRA, in fact the republican club that he was involved with in college was overseen by the OIRA chief of staff(as were all youth republicans clubs run by the official movement) In fact it was not until 1992 that he along with others who are now in Labour with him decided to break away from The Workers Party as the Soviet Union had just collapsed and the OIRA were still active. So for electoral reasons they left and formed Democratic Left before joining Labour.

These are the reported and proven facts, facts that Gilmore and his team of advisors keep running away from. Sinn Féin do not hide their past and yet Gilmore wants to be elected to the highest office in the land and his memory fails him.... GUBU comes to mind.

It is supported by the "list" of dates I gave in my post tot the Gilmore thread along with parallel dates of OIRA activities and by this timeline in the Irish Times:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/1009/1224280698939.html

LOL. Well I'd say democratic socialists for the likes of Eirigi or the Socialist Party but Social democrats for Sinn Fein/Labour. Sound similar but one is socialism the other's capitalism with a bit of a conscience!

Maybe Sinn Féin should drop the Sinn Féin from their name and become the "blank" party?

Bottle_of_Smoke

ISAW wrote: »

Ah but then you have to consider
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/chron/index.html
- The IRA were active since the 1920 but the OIRA only since the 1970s
- The of 1171 IRA killings 1012 were British Military and 513 civilians ~2 to 1
whereas of 52 OIRA 18 were British Military and 22 civilians ~ more civilians

Thing is most people criticising Adams wouldn't see much a of a difference between killing state forces and civillians - still terrorism as far as theý're concerned. Also they don't think in ratios, its still 513 civillians versus 22.

Just on the timelines there - you say the officials were active only since the provo split - but really wouldn't you say the provos only really began then too?

I haden't gotten around to "Group B" when the thread was locked.

Here's a longer thread on politics.ie
http://www.politics.ie/history/97814-lost-revolution-history-oira-workers-party-47.html

and here a poster says:
http://www.politics.ie/labour/140702-gilmore-gets-memory-jog-about-his-past-17.html#post3119605


It is supported by the "list" of dates I gave in my post tot the Gilmore thread along with parallel dates of OIRA activities and by this timeline in the Irish Times:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/1009/1224280698939.html

I think that times article is a bit harsh to be honest. Its like its making him out to be huge in the organisation but he was only big on the college campus which doesn't seem a big deal to me.

As I was saying it was nowhere near the involvment Adams had with the provos - so I can understand people not being as bothered by it.

Dyr

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Thats because Collins would be too busy ordering his own squad of unknowns to go and execute British spies yeah?

Not to mention ordering them to torture and/or murder their former comrades. That's if you want to drag civil war politics back up.