Traffic Signs Manual 2010 - Published

murphaph

Certainly a big step in the right direction having this new TSM. Much more detailed than the old one and some of the introductions are very sensible. The issue however as I see it is that without an Irish equivalent of the UK's TSRGD councils will still be free to continue erecting rubbing and failing to erect the proper signage where needed.

I hope I'm wrong, signage has improved dramatically in many parts of Ireland in recent years so here's hoping.

wellbutty

Standardising and documenting the signs is a step in the right direction but I'll be more excited when I see incorrect/misplaced/partially hidden/obsolete/advertising signs being dug up.

Advertising signs must be more tightly controlled, "Mary Murphy's fresh apple tarts 3km ahead", "last stop before the ferry" (halfway between New Ross and Wexford). This rubbish needs to be removed!

icdg

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

The question is, was any gantry done properly to the 1996 TSM? Which would have looked the same as the UK gantry.

Oh that's a good question...I think the only one 100% correct may have been the one that used to be at the N18/N19 junction in Clare. Definitely (at the time) the most western gantry in Ireland by some distance!

The afforementioned M4/N6 gantry was unfortunately not correct, as it used patching - the "N6" was in green instead of blue which it should have been. Likewise there was some dodgey patching on the two gantries leading to M50 J3.

There was an almost correct stacked gantry on the Naas Road, its just been replaced though.

Amtmann

I noticed a new type of sign today on the M8 about 2km south of the M7 interchange.

It's a single, white letter 'e' on a green square background affixed to a pole. Any idea what it signifies?

L1011

The PPP concessionaire has forgotten what Euroroute it is?

icdg

MYOB wrote: »

Leixlip to Kinnegad was completely resigned over Christmas and there is a "use for" sign to warn people not to use J10. As well as TSM2010 gantries, cantilevers, next exit, mini map, map and so on.

The most notable improvement is at the diverge.

Took a short trip on the M4 last night and notice that they'd re-signed Leixlip-Kilcock for the second time in six months!!! Which makes one wonder why they did it the first time (which was only back in September or October). This time there are gantries and cantilevers erected.

They did manage to correct the incorrect signage approaching J5 eastbound which showed the M4 continuing towards Dublin (J5 is in fact its eastern terminal junction), so it wasn't completely a waste of money. Still no end of motorway signs there though (or start of motorway signs in the opposite direction).

As for the new No Entry signs, I wouldn't expect councils to rush out and replace them! The TSM is after all, a direction for the erection of new signs, not one to go out and replace all the existing signs! After all, there are still plenty of pre-1977 imperial signs to be seen once you stray any way off the national roads network.

Empire o de Sun

Would there not be a legal issue. After all prohibition, restrictions etc. have to be leaglly enforceable? otherwise any sign could be put up for parking, no entry etc.

ardmacha

Would there not be a legal issue. After all prohibition, restrictions etc. have to be leaglly enforceable? otherwise any sign could be put up for parking, no entry etc.

The old and new signs are legally enforceable. There is no need for money to be wasted changing signs when there are no many other signs needed.

ardmacha

ardmacha wrote: »

The old and new signs are legally enforceable. There is no need for money to be wasted changing signs when there are no many other signs needed.

They were quick off the mark with replacing the old one way signs with the red circles, I wonder how many crashes they caused!

murphaph

I've never seen the point of having both blue backed "must do" signs AND red roundel "must not do" signs when it comes to direction of travel. In Germany there's no such thing as a "no left turn" etc. sign. They only use blue faced "turn left", "turn right" etc. signs and the "no entry" or "no entry for motorised vehicles" signs.

I think it removes an unnecessary layer of signage IMO and looks much neater. It is after all irrelevant whether or not you're told "you must go straight ahead or turn left" or "you must not turn right". Here's a junction near my place that illustrates how the Germans sign this (note, not everything about German signage enamours me, but it is highly consistent right across the Federal Republic, something Ireland should aspire to.

Oh, can someone point me to the Bus Stop chapter and page please

Empire o de Sun

murphaph wrote: »

I've never seen the point of having both blue backed "must do" signs AND red roundel "must not do" signs when it comes to direction of travel. In Germany there's no such thing as a "no left turn" etc. sign. They only use blue faced "turn left", "turn right" etc. signs and the "no entry" or "no entry for motorised vehicles" signs.

I think it removes an unnecessary layer of signage IMO and looks much neater. It is after all irrelevant whether or not you're told "you must go straight ahead or turn left" or "you must not turn right". Here's a junction near my place that illustrates how the Germans sign this (note, not everything about German signage enamours me, but it is highly consistent right across the Federal Republic, something Ireland should aspire to.

It's called "positive" signage. Much better I think. You know where you can go.

oharach

I really like that positive directional signage.

I hate the German 'Give Way/Yield' signage though. The signs are very unobtrusive compared with Ireland/UK, and there are no painted lines on the road telling you where to stop. Worse, where there is a cycle-only contraflow, the signs are half the size – which makes no sense. I went straight through one once and was nearly killed by a BMW.

murphaph

oharach wrote: »

I really like that positive directional signage.

I hate the German 'Give Way/Yield' signage though. The signs are very unobtrusive compared with Ireland/UK, and there are no painted lines on the road telling you where to stop. Worse, where there is a cycle-only contraflow, the signs are half the size – which makes no sense. I went straight through one once and was nearly killed by a BMW.

German give way signs are almost identical to anywhere else, no? They do paint a thick white line on the road in most places and I suppose it's like the UK and Ireland when there's no line: stop at or before the sign.

I find the fact that a T junction side road joining a "main road" has priority over traffic on the "main road" unless otherwise signed. I think it's more sensible that at any T junction, traffic on the "side road" should yield to traffic on the "main road". At crossroads then I see a certain logic to it.

I find that driving in Germany requires a more detailed knowledge of the rules of the road to avoid crashing into someone. Good in one way but bad in others. At least the Germans don't have the silly give way to traffic entering a roundabout when you're already on it rule, like in Italy!

oharach

murphaph wrote: »

German give way signs are almost identical to anywhere else, no? They do paint a thick white line on the road in most places and I suppose it's like the UK and Ireland when there's no line: stop at or before the sign.

I find that driving in Germany requires a more detailed knowledge of the rules of the road to avoid crashing into someone. Good in one way but bad in others. At least the Germans don't have the silly give way to traffic entering a roundabout when you're already on it rule, like in Italy!

I can only speak for Munich, where painted 'stop' lines are few and far between off the main thoroughfares. Having them is much safer than not.

The 'yield' signs are indeed the same triangles that are commonly used elsewhere – but I don't find they really jump out. I like the Irish 'yield' signs and the international 'STOP' signs.

German drivers are pretty unforgiving if you don't know this or that § of the rules of the road..

chewed

What's the story with the updated No Entry sign being adopted?

I noticed they had them up on the M3/N3 roundabout outside Kells. Will they be replacing all of the signs around the country?

They're still using the old style "no straight ahead" sign on the Athlone bypass as part of the recent upgrades.

chewed

Deleted User wrote: »

They're still using the old style "no straight ahead" sign on the Athlone bypass as part of the recent upgrades.

Typical Ireland! Half ar$ed approach to upgrading!

etchyed

chewed wrote: »

Typical Ireland! Half ar$ed approach to upgrading!

Would you prefer if they spent thousands replacing every single sign in the country simultaneously?

Can't remember which thread it's in, and can't be bothered to look, but someone on here posted information to the effect that the signs are to be changed over gradually as the need to replace them arises. This means that there'll be a significant period (could be around 10 years or more I reckon) during which both are valid. Seems to me the right way to do it.

Nothing particularly Irish about it either. This Stop sign coexisted with the the octagonal one in some European countries for many years.

Skopzz

The last time they replaced signs, they screwed-up big time...The speed limit signs are TINY in size by comparison to the former ones. I wouldn't be surprised if they repeat the same mistake with these 'no entry' signs. Any why not, there's no accountability because the people tasked with ordering/inspecting them are as Michael O'Leary pointed out; 'rotten to the core'. They cannot be fired either.

etchyed

etchyed wrote: »

Would you prefer if they spent thousands replacing every single sign in the country simultaneously?

Can't remember which thread it's in, and can't be bothered to look, but someone on here posted information to the effect that the signs are to be changed over gradually as the need to replace them arises. This means that there'll be a significant period (could be around 10 years or more I reckon) during which both are valid. Seems to me the right way to do it.

Nothing particularly Irish about it either. This Stop sign coexisted with the the octagonal one in some European countries for many years.

I think they would most likely just replace the "no straight ahead" on primary routes in a planned operation over a couple of years and leave all the others to be replaced as needed.

That appears to have been what was done when the old one way (red circle) signs were updated a decade ago, in Athlone town you can still see the old ones on some of the minor roads.

Those bloody signs really spooked me when I first saw one, Everywhere in the world (except Ireland) the rule is; red circle, DO NOT DO WHAT IS IN THE CIRCLE.

etchyed

Deleted User wrote: »

Those bloody signs really spooked me when I first saw one, Everywhere in the world (except Ireland...

And Brazil. But certainly everywhere else in Europe, yes, so it was right that Ireland changed to match. The P in a red circle meaning parking allowed still irritates me.

etchyed

Skopzz wrote: »

The last time they replaced signs, they screwed-up big time...The speed limit signs are TINY in size by comparison to the former ones. I wouldn't be surprised if they repeat the same mistake with these 'no entry' signs.

All speed limit signs that existed before the changeover to km/h are the same size as they were before. When the changeover occurred, far more speed limit signs were put up than existed before. The smaller ones are called repeater signs. They're there to remind you of a speed limit that you should already be following. At a change of speed limit the larger signs are used, just like they always were.

Skopzz wrote:

rabble rabble... incompetent civil cervants... rotten to the core... unaccountable... scrounging timewasting profligate bastards... Michael O'Leary is God etc.

*yawn*

Skopzz

etchyed wrote: »

All speed limit signs that existed before the changeover to km/h are the same size as they were before. When the changeover occurred, far more speed limit signs were put up than existed before. The smaller ones are called repeater signs. They're there to remind you of a speed limit that you should already be following. At a change of speed limit the larger signs are used, just like they always were.


*yawn*

The font is tiny by comparison to the earlier ones. The only way around this is to make the diameter of the sign bigger than before. By doing this, it would compensate for illegible font sizes currently on the new speed limit signs. The reminder signs are absolutely TINY.

etchyed

Skopzz wrote: »

The font is tiny by comparison to the earlier ones.

That's true to an extent, but not what you said. I don't know how they could make a similar mistake with the No Entry signs, as you suggested, given that they don't contain any text.

Skopzz

Well, I guess the No Entry sign should be a different diameter depending on the location. They could put bigger No Entry signs on town/city streets where theres a lot of distractions. Drivers regularly complain about the tiny signs in urban areas because you're trying to concentrate on both the road and also pedestrians whilst keeping a lookout for signs.

chewed

etchyed wrote: »

Would you prefer if they spent thousands replacing every single sign in the country simultaneously?

Can't remember which thread it's in, and can't be bothered to look, but someone on here posted information to the effect that the signs are to be changed over gradually as the need to replace them arises. This means that there'll be a significant period (could be around 10 years or more I reckon) during which both are valid. Seems to me the right way to do it.

Nothing particularly Irish about it either. This Stop sign coexisted with the the octagonal one in some European countries for many years.

My point was that if they are currently upgrading the Athlone bypass as dolanbaker pointed out, why are they using the old style signs and not the new ones?

chewed

chewed wrote: »

My point was that if they are currently upgrading the Athlone bypass as dolanbaker pointed out, why are they using the old style signs and not the new ones?

I should add that the "no straight ahead" sign was only erected a few days ago, they did the same when they replaced the worn out direction signs a couple of years ago, now they are erecting gantries and replacing them! :rolleyes:

icdg

chewed wrote: »

What's the story with the updated No Entry sign being adopted?

I noticed they had them up on the M3/N3 roundabout outside Kells. Will they be replacing all of the signs around the country?

To my knowledge, the Traffic Signs Regulations still haven't been updated to make the new version legal. They can't roll them out until that occurs.

Solair

European standard no-entry signs have started appearing in Cork.

There's one a the finger-post roundabout in Douglas.

There are also a few on the Midleton Bypass (N25)

niloc1951

Solair wrote: »

..............................There are also a few on the Midleton Bypass (N25)

It would be better if Laurel & Hardy fixed up the crap signage already in existence on the N25 between Cork and Castlemartyr instead of playing with new stuff :mad::mad: