How much are we losing to SHELL?

uprising2

So, Royal Dutch Shell, Statoil and Vermilion Energy Trust are all interested in tiny tiddlers?, do you honestly believe what you write?
These companies are the vultures of the earth, sucking what they can, where they can, when they can and like the corrupt Nigerian govt, our own ex-cons also sold out before they were booted out.

Why be "happy" with anything less than 100% of profits?, it's not like we couldn't do with it. The country is on it's knee's, 3 multinational companies are sucking juice from our tank, we're on our knee's below them with a bucket catching the dribbles, and we should be so greatful to them for doing what is "impossible" for ireland as a nation to do "all by itself", do you realise how small minded an attitude that is?, it's degrading.


Your assumption that we are incapable of actually hiring what is needed, when it's needed, and saying goodbye and thankyou for your service when the time comes is absurd. Why Not?,

In these financially difficult times every penny lost, is a penny lost, what's to gain from loss?, easy answer.....Nothing.

whatstherush

uprising2 wrote: »

do you honestly believe what you write?

Do you honestly believe the propaganda that S2S spout about little ol'Ireland being raped by the big bad oil companies. S2S are so full of lies you couldn't believe the radio in their car.

It's so lovely that S2S have the interests of Irish resources so close to their hearts, but the truth is, the gas could be extracted by the Irish state and given away free to the public and you would still have the same rent a scruffs protesting about something or other.

liammur

Shell got a very good deal. There can be no doubting that.
However, anyone who has any experience with O&G exploration plays, will know that it's a very high risk high reward business. Very few companies in the world have the resources that Shell have. They have put in over €1bn in to this project already. They do expect to get multiples of this back, but only time will tell whether they do or not.

Scofflaw

uprising2 wrote: »

So, Royal Dutch Shell, Statoil and Vermilion Energy Trust are all interested in tiny tiddlers?, do you honestly believe what you write?

I wouldn't write it if I didn't. Yes, the oil majors are interested in tiddlers, because a tiddler is still worth a couple of billion. That couple of billion makes it worthwhile someone with the expertise investing in developing the field.

uprising2 wrote: »

These companies are the vultures of the earth, sucking what they can, where they can, when they can and like the corrupt Nigerian govt, our own ex-cons also sold out before they were booted out

Or you could say they're companies with expertise in a particular form of resource extraction who are used to dealing with corrupt and unstable countries, and who don't always play nicely - same thing, slightly less hysterical.

uprising2 wrote: »

Why be "happy" with anything less than 100% of profits?, it's not like we couldn't do with it. The country is on it's knee's, 3 multinational companies are sucking juice from our tank, we're on our knee's below them with a bucket catching the dribbles,

Because extracting 100% of the profits from a resource found by a private company is something you only really get to do once.

uprising2 wrote: »

and we should be so greatful to them for doing what is "impossible" for ireland as a nation to do "all by itself", do you realise how small minded an attitude that is?, it's degrading.

Your assumption that we are incapable of actually hiring what is needed, when it's needed, and saying goodbye and thankyou for your service when the time comes is absurd. Why Not?,

Presumably, so is every other occasion on which an Irish company isn't used to do something in Ireland - and I won't comment on the parochialism of that attitude. It's not "impossible" for Ireland to develop a State oil company - it's currently pointless.

uprising2 wrote: »

In these financially difficult times every penny lost, is a penny lost, what's to gain from loss?, easy answer.....Nothing.

So your view is that we should have invested the billion and a half that Shell have put in, and still have seen no gas?

Look, it's not complicated. Currently, we own the seabed. We licence the right to explore for resources and develop any found - for money. Then, if a resource is developed, we tax the profits on it. Risk - zero. Investment - zero. Return on investment - divide by zero.

All you're saying is that when someone actually finds a resource, we should simply steal it back from them. Whatever about the morality of that - it's simply not worth doing for something the size of Corrib.

We're the ones getting free money from Corrib, not Shell. You want to grab more money, but all your plans involve it not being free money any more - you want to take on the risks of exploring the Irish offshore, which has the potential to be yet another huge money hole at a time when we already have two on the go. And you want to do it over an amount of money that would keep the State going for a few months. It's hard to put into words politely the scale of the stupidity involved.

If someone finds an Ekofisk out there, then we can consider welching on all the legally binding deals. For anything less, it's not worth doing - and the Norwegians didn't even do it for Ekofisk.

regards,
Scofflaw

Birdnuts

Scofflaw wrote: »

and we are already taxing it.

wearily,
Scofflaw

Are we?? - care to produce some figures given that under the deal all SHELL's Irish cost are written off against tax.

Birdnuts

whatstherush wrote: »

Do you honestly believe the propaganda that S2S spout about little ol'Ireland being raped by the big bad oil companies. S2S are so full of lies you couldn't believe the radio in their car.

It's so lovely that S2S have the interests of Irish resources so close to their hearts, but the truth is, the gas could be extracted by the Irish state and given away free to the public and you would still have the same rent a scruffs protesting about something or other.

What lies are you referring too?? - SHELL have lied to their own shareholders not to mention a mountain of other corporate scandals they've been associated with over the years:(

Birdnuts

Scofflaw wrote: »

Or you could say they're companies with expertise in a particular form of resource extraction who are used to dealing with corrupt and unstable countries, and who don't always play nicely - same thing, slightly less hysterical.





regards,
Scofflaw

SHELL should snap you up for their PR dept - presumably your first job would be re-writing the history of SHELLS activities in the Niger Delta

Birdnuts

Scofflaw wrote: »

.

We don't have the know-how to put together a State oil company. T
Scofflaw

Them thick Paddies eh?? - plenty of Irish work/worked on such projects like Kinsale and in other parts of the world. We even have Irish people like Michael Campbell who held senior positions with Statoil. Going on your logic Statoil itself would never have been set up by the Norwegians:rolleyes:

yermanoffthetv

Birdnuts

liammur wrote: »

Shell got a very good deal. There can be no doubting that.
However, anyone who has any experience with O&G exploration plays, will know that it's a very high risk high reward business. Very few companies in the world have the resources that Shell have. They have put in over €1bn in to this project already. They do expect to get multiples of this back, but only time will tell whether they do or not.

SHELL don't make tens of billion of euros a year on Russian Roulette - their exploration strategies like all big oil companies are based on the price of energy commodities. Hence the lack of activity in deep water areas like Irish waters when oil prices etc. were subdued in the 80's and 90's. The last decade has seen an explosion in the prices of these commodities and that is why the likes of SHELL and BP are getting going in places like the Arctic Ocean and the South Atlantic off Brazil etc.

The Corrib gas deal is a subsidy to these massive profits with a very poor return for the Irish state particulary in light of what the community in Mayo have been put through and the risks they now face having a company with SHELLs appalling health and safety record in their midst:(

Di0genes

Birdnuts wrote: »

Them thick Paddies eh?? - plenty of Irish work/worked on such projects like Kinsale and in other parts of the world. We even have Irish people like Michael Campbell who held senior positions with Statoil. Going on your logic Statoil itself would never have been set up by the Norwegians:rolleyes:

As Scofflaw has pointed out we could spend billions trying to extract the Gas/Oil from the Corrib field only to discover it is not commercially viable.

Instead if there are tens billions of euros of natural gas/oil off our coast we can get billions in tax revenue, from the deal as it standing.

And if the gas is found there, there is no reason why we can't massively increase the tax on profits from Oil/Gas.

As it stands we're not pouring billions of revenue we could ill afford, into a project that may yield nothing, and if it does provide any revenue we can renegotiate the deal.

Can people show us were the profits from Corrib are being generated? Has Shell made a penny yet?

Birdnuts

Di0genes wrote: »

As Scofflaw has pointed out we could spend billions trying to extract the Gas/Oil from the Corrib field only to discover it is not commercially viable.

Instead if there are tens billions of euros of natural gas/oil off our coast we can get billions in tax revenue, from the deal as it standing.

Meanwhile in the real world

:http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/google-uses-ireland-to-slash-its-tax-bill-2390413.html

"Google used methods that take advantage of Irish tax laws to legally move profits in and out of companies here, escaping Ireland's 12.5pc corporate tax rate"

Of course according to Scofflaw big oil companies would never consider such unpleasantness:rolleyes:

At least google actually provide a decent number of long-term relatively well- paid jobs in this country - all Shell have promised from this project is a few dozen at Bellanaboy(and many of those are minimum wage stuff like security and cleaning)

Waestrel

Birdnuts wrote: »

SHELL should snap you up for their PR dept - presumably your first job would be re-writing the history of SHELLS activities in the Niger Delta

Could it be that he is making sense and that conflicts with your world view of "OMG Teh OIL companys!!!11"

We irish, being an IT and services based economy have very little familiarity with natural resources based economy. It is by no means unusual MNC's to develop a nations resources. From the sounds of scofflaws post, and what i know myself, it makes sense. Why would develop our own oil industry for a small (1 trillion cubic meters) gas field? WE would spend billions, use it on corrib, and then what? We are not a resource economy. Never were. Why not tell intel to get lost and we will develop our own microprocessor industry?

Also, from the resource nationalist here, why do we hear so little about the "Great Lead and Zinc Theft" from Navan By the Evil Swedes of Boliden? (surely a controversy rich with parallels to the vikings and monastic raids of old ) or those tricky Indians in Vendanta in Tipperary?

Birdnuts

Waestrel wrote: »

Could it be that he is making sense and that conflicts with your world view of "OMG Teh OIL companys!!!11"

We irish, being an IT and services based economy have very little familiarity with natural resources based economy. It is by no means unusual MNC's to develop a nations resources. From the sounds of scofflaws post, and what i know myself, it makes sense. Why would develop our own oil industry for a small (1 trillion cubic meters) gas field? WE would spend billions, use it on corrib, and then what? We are not a resource economy. Never were. Why not tell intel to get lost and we will develop our own microprocessor industry?

Also, from the resource nationalist here, why do we hear so little about the "Great Lead and Zinc Theft" from Navan By the Evil Swedes of Boliden? (surely a controversy rich with parallels to the vikings and monastic raids of old ) or those tricky Indians in Vendanta in Tipperary?

All the companies you mentions are providing alot more in terms of revenues and employment then SHELL are - and without the massive environmental and safety risks that come with hosting a massive refinery next to a regions water-supply, game fisheries, SAC's in a landslide prone landscape.

PS: It amazes me how many people out there are totally ignorant of SHELLS appalling environmental and safety record around the world

Waestrel

Birdnuts wrote: »

All the companies you mentions are providing alot more in terms of revenues and employment then SHELL are - and without the massive environmental and safety risks that come with hosting a massive refinery next to a regions water-supply, game fisheries, SAC's in a landslide prone landscape.

PS: It amazes me how many people out there are totally ignorant of SHELLS appalling environmental and safety record around the world

The discussion is on of natural resources, not about breaches of environmental regulations or planning permission .

yes and oil companies are not to be trusted, that does not mean they cannot be useful. They are subject to the rigours of the law, as is any MNC. If they are not, that is the failing of the EPA, Bord Planala, etc and would not be solved by having our own national oil company.

Birdnuts

Waestrel wrote: »

The discussion is on of natural resources, not about breaches of environmental regulations or planning permission .

yes and oil companies are not to be trusted, that does not mean they cannot be useful. They are subject to the rigours of the law, as is any MNC. If they are not, that is the failing of the EPA, Bord Planala, etc and would not be solved by having our own national oil company.

The is plenty of evidence around the country that neither the EPA and Board Pleanala are up to the job but thats for another thread as you say;) - I mentioned these issues to highlight what a poor deal SHELL's CORRIB gas project is for the Irish People

My problem with the likes of Scofflaw's postings in this thread is that he appears to be trying to play SHELL's PR game of equating their interests with Irelands interests via the shambolic Corrib gas deal. And he is failing badly since I've yet to see any evidence that the Corrib project deal as it now stands will deliver any real benefits in terms of state revenues or long term employment opportunities:(.

Waestrel

Birdnuts wrote: »

The is plenty of evidence around the country that neither the EPA and Board Pleanala are up to the job but thats for another thread as you say;) - I mentioned these issues to highlight what a poor deal SHELL's CORRIB gas project is for the Irish People

My problem with the likes of Scofflaw's postings in this thread is that he appears to be trying to play SHELL's PR game of equating their interests with Irelands interests via the shambolic Corrib gas deal. And he is failing badly since I've yet to see any evidence that the Corrib project deal as it now stands will deliver any real benefits in terms of state revenues or long term employment opportunities.

Why does it have to? Its not a huge amount of gas. A small find, yet you want massive results. 1 TCF is not big money.

Di0genes

Birdnuts wrote: »

Meanwhile in the real world

:http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/google-uses-ireland-to-slash-its-tax-bill-2390413.html

"Google used methods that take advantage of Irish tax laws to legally move profits in and out of companies here, escaping Ireland's 12.5pc corporate tax rate"

Of course according to Scofflaw big oil companies would never consider such unpleasantness:rolleyes:

At least google actually provide a decent number of long-term relatively well- paid jobs in this country - all Shell have promised from this project is a few dozen at Bellanaboy(and many of those are minimum wage stuff like security and cleaning)

Yeah try and be a little less patronising. The oil will be within Irish territoriality waters, Any attempt to avoid, or minimise payment to Ireland, would be greeted with howls of outrage, and insistence of nationalising the field.

Besides it would be such a profitable venture why would they risk it.



More importantly your argument about reneging on this deal is that potentially Shell could conceivably try tax avoidance, based on the behaviour of a different company (a company that is paying tax in Ireland, just utilising our low corporate tax law to minimise it's tax liability across Europe)?

So thats it because Google was devious we shouldn't trust Shell, and what? Spend several Billion pounds investigating the viability of the oil fields with the potential expense that it could be financial infeasible for any company or nation to extract the field.

Is that really a good use of vital financial resources at this current time. If a friend was currently in dire financial straits would you think it acceptable use of their time prospecting for gold in their back garden?

I'm no fan of shell, and it's behaviour in the West of Ireland. Neither am I a fan of Fianna Fail or Ray Burke.

But right now the field is costing us nothing, Shell are doing the work. As to when and indeed a big if the field ever presents itself as a viable prospect the deal should be re examined.

Birdnuts

Waestrel wrote: »

Why does it have to? Its not a huge amount of gas. A small find, yet you want massive results. 1 TCF is not big money.

SHELL keep changing their figures on the exact seize of this field(and how much they've spent developing it of which their is no independent confirmation) so I wouldn't be calling the exact amount of gas yet

In any case lets look at the facts as opposed to the SHELL/government spin.

1) SHELL have built a massive refinery in North Mayo and have manged to deploy an amazing number and range of the states security apparatus to do it

2) The have secured options on many hundreds of extra acres of state land to further expand this refinery as needs be(have they paid us for this - we still don't know)

3) the state through Bord Gais have spent an enormous amount of money to service this refinery in terms of a brand new distribution network many hundreds of miles in extent

Does all the above suggest that 1) the Corrib field is a mere cigarette lighter and 2) the Rockhall basin etc. is shaping up to be a big empty space in terms of oil and gas.

I would ask people to please think about the above facts long and hard and use some common sense as opposed to falling back on empty corporate spin

Birdnuts

Di0genes wrote: »

Yeah try and be a little less patronising. The oil will be within Irish territoriality waters, Any attempt to avoid, or minimise payment to Ireland, would be greeted with howls of outrage, and insistence of nationalising the field.

Besides it would be such a profitable venture why would they risk it.



More importantly your argument about reneging on this deal is that potentially Shell could conceivably try tax avoidance, based on the behaviour of a different company (a company that is paying tax in Ireland, just utilising our low corporate tax law to minimise it's tax liability across Europe)?

So thats it because Google was devious we shouldn't trust Shell, and what? Spend several Billion pounds investigating the viability of the oil fields with the potential expense that it could be financial infeasible for any company or nation to extract the field.

Is that really a good use of vital financial resources at this current time. If a friend was currently in dire financial straits would you think it acceptable use of their time prospecting for gold in their back garden?

I'm no fan of shell, and it's behaviour in the West of Ireland. Neither am I a fan of Fianna Fail or Ray Burke.

But right now the field is costing us nothing, Shell are doing the work. As to when and indeed a big if the field ever presents itself as a viable prospect the deal should be re examined.

So you reckon GOOGLE are more devious then SHELL?? - funny man:rolleyes:

Our oil and gas reserves can only increase in value as time goes on given further exhaustion of more accessible fields around the world. Why the rush to exploit them now simply to boast SHELLS profits with no benefit to us. Also deep-water drilling techonology can only improve into the future(it has too given recent events with BP in the gulf:() which will invariably bring the costs of developing such fields down. This is the type of thing Norway did in the 70's and are now reaping the rewards:)

Waestrel

Birdnuts wrote: »

SHELL keep changing their figures on the exact seize of this field(and how much they've spent developing it of which their is no independent confirmation) so I wouldn't be calling the exact amount of gas yet

In any case lets look at the facts as opposed to the SHELL/government spin.

1) SHELL have built a massive refinery in North Mayo and have manged to deploy an amazing number and range of the states security apparatus to do it

2) The have secured options on many hundreds of extra acres of state land to further expand this refinery as needs be(have they paid us for this - we still don't know)

3) the state through Bord Gais have spent an enormous amount of money to service this refinery in terms of a brand new distribution network many hundreds of miles in extent

Does all the above suggest that 1) the Corrib field is a mere cigarette lighter and 2) the Rockhall basin etc. is shaping up to be a big empty space in terms of oil and gas.

I would ask people to please think about the above facts long and hard and use some common sense as opposed to falling back on empty corporate spin

i will make no comment on the goings on onshore with the protestors etc, however i have never heard the COrrib being mentioned as any more than 1 TCF

Why are you bringing the rockall into this? A still largely unexplored and unknown petroleum system? There may be profitable oil there, and if there is we can negotiate tax taxation when we cross that bridge.

In your bull in a china shop rampage through the issue, do you actually have a point?

Di0genes

Birdnuts wrote: »

So you reckon GOOGLE are more devious then SHELL?? - funny man:rolleyes:

Our oil and gas reserves can only increase in value as time goes on given further exhaustion of more accessible fields around the world. Why the rush to exploit them now simply to boast SHELLS profits with no benefit to us. Also deep-water drilling techonology can only improve into the future(it has too given recent events with BP in the gulf:() which will invariably bring the costs of developing such fields down. This is the type of thing Norway did in the 70's and are now reaping the rewards:)

And Shell will just gift us the technology.

To answer both your points.

Has Shell made any profits from the Corrib field? Yes or No.

t 1) the Corrib field is a mere cigarette lighter and 2) the Rockhall basin etc. is shaping up to be a big empty space in terms of oil and gas.

I would ask people to please think about the above facts long and hard and use some common sense as opposed to falling back on empty corporate spin

Shell are a company that made £4.09 billion in the first quarter of 2010. We are in hock to to the IMF to the tune of €20 billion euro.

Shell can afford to explore dead ends. We can afford to watch them explore, and then tax the profits.

Birdnuts

Waestrel wrote: »

i will make no comment on the goings on onshore with the protestors etc, however i have never heard the COrrib being mentioned as any more than 1 TCF

Why are you bringing the rockall into this? A still largely unexplored and unknown petroleum system? There may be profitable oil there, and if there is we can negotiate tax taxation when we cross that bridge.

In your bull in a china shop rampage through the issue, do you actually have a point?

My point is I form my opinions based on proven facts, form and evidence. Not on the word of widly discredited corporate entities or their state sycophants.

Exploitation licences have already been given out for the area between the Corrib field and Rockall and any finds could obviously be processed at the Bellanboy refinery - my point is also we are meant to believe this refinery is just for the Corrib field, even the Dept of Energy which is all gung ho(to put it mildly) for SHELLS project refer constantly it this potential.

Waestrel

Birdnuts wrote: »

My point is I form my opinions based on proven facts, form and evidence. Not on the word of widly discredited corporate entities or their state sycophants.

Exploitation licences have already been given out for the area between the Corrib field and Rockall and any finds could obviously be processed at the Bellanboy refinery - my point is also we are meant to believe this refinery is just for the Corrib field, even the Dept of Energy which is all gung ho(to put it mildly) for SHELLS project refer constantly it this potential.

DO you think the corrib is significantly larger than 1 TCF?If you ignore the expertise on this estimate (PAD, shell, other "sycophants") what are your sources and how reliable are they?

Birdnuts

Di0genes wrote: »

And Shell will just gift us the technology.

.

How did Statoil get hold of it in the 70's?? - going on your logic we still wouldn't have electric light bulbs in this country:rolleyes:


On your second point - SHELL certainly appear to think there will be plenty of profits for them when the gas starts pumping

Birdnuts

Waestrel wrote: »

DO you think the corrib is significantly larger than 1 TCF?If you ignore the expertise on this estimate (PAD, shell, other "sycophants") what are your sources and how reliable are they?

SHELL have mis-represented the seize of their own reserves in the past as I have already highlighted in this thread so excuse me if I don't cling to their every word like yourself. I'm basing my opinions on the scale of this project and the industry wide approach to such developments

liammur

Birdnuts wrote: »

SHELL don't make tens of billion of euros a year on Russian Roulette

Tell that to BP who will lose $40bn over the gulf of mexico spill.

Birdnuts

liammur wrote: »

Tell that to BP who will lose $40bn over the gulf of mexico spill.

Just shows the scale of the profits in this game - and the type of corporate scumbags who infest it:(

liammur

Birdnuts wrote: »

Just shows the scale of the profits in this game - and the type of corporate scumbags who infest it:(

Yes, the profits are enormous for the successful one, but don't forget every year there are plenty of O&G casualties on the world's exchanges.

Birdnuts

liammur wrote: »

Yes, the profits are enormous for the successful one, but don't forget every year there are plenty of O&G casualties on the world's exchanges.

The strong crush the weak - and have the clout to bend the ear of governments for their benefit and advantage;)