How much are we losing to SHELL?

brendankelly

http://www.politics.ie/elections/150939-fis-nua-presentation-election-candidates-press-launch-15.html

K-9

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Agreed, my concern about the whole thing was that Ray Burke who was the relevant minister at the time sent his whole negotiating team out of the room while he dealt with Shell. *Lataer he was convicted of corruption IIRC on a different matter mind, but did a leopard ever change it's spots?

A few years later Bertie sweetened the deal even more giving more tax rebates to Shell when he was minister for the environment. People will notice that this was more or less around the time he was going cap in hand to Paddy the plasterer in Manchester or winning unnamed amounts on unnamed horses instead of looking for "digouts" because he needed to pay for his divorce :rolleyes:

BTW Shell were even agitating to try and land the gas in Scotland. Look it up.

One question for all the apologists on here. Please tell me why Norway is a partner in the Corrib gas field and stands to make profit while Ireland doesn't? How right is that?

Still, the 100's of Billions figure seems to come from the same Government figures, this Government we don't trust plus some companies that own fields and its in their own self interest to "drum" up the figure.

puffdragon

The latest REAL VALUE of the field to the whole island in my terms as I am middle aged and could benefit from the field for the next 20 years is 54 billion on the basis that a decent infastructure of pipelines were distributed all over Ireland, thats not counting the jobs, materials profits, and the obvious advantage to our carbon footprint.

Yep its 2.7 billion each year for the rest of my life and then of course theirs my children who could benefit from this field when the peak oil thingy hits in 30 years time. This field giveaway is equivelent to the banking crisis in its mismanagement, Fianna Fail have to be gotten outa here pronto.rool in Sinn Fein .

K-9

puffdragon wrote: »

The latest REAL VALUE of the field to the whole island in my terms as I am middle aged and could benefit from the field for the next 20 years is 54 billion on the basis that a decent infastructure of pipelines were distributed all over Ireland, thats not counting the jobs, materials profits, and the obvious advantage to our carbon footprint.

Yep its 2.7 billion each year for the rest of my life and then of course theirs my children who could benefit from this field when the peak oil thingy hits in 30 years time. This field giveaway is equivelent to the banking crisis in its mismanagement, Fianna Fail have to be gotten outa here pronto.rool in Sinn Fein .

The costs would be substantial, somebody has to pay for the piping, wages, rigs etc. Shell has already spent a couple of Billion.

It just isn't as simple as SF tell you. Plus there are other places to spend that kind of money of more immediate concern, like schools and hospitals.

brendankelly

It just isn't as simple as SF tell you. Plus there are other places to spend that kind of money of more immediate concern, like schools and hospitals.[/QUOTE]

Because the oil was given away we do not have it to spend on schools etc.

SF have never mentioned it. The only party that has mentioned the gas give away are Fis Nua. Rool in Fis Nua

hinault

Faced with the same problem (no homegrown mineral exploration company / exploration expertise), the Norwegians created Statoil in order to explore the mineral wealth found of it's coastline initially, in the early 1970's.


Wikipedia.
Den Norske Stats Oljeselskap A/S was founded as a private limited company owned by the Government of Norway on July 14, 1972 by a unanimous act passed by the Norwegian parliament Stortinget.
The political motivation was Norwegian participation in the oil industry on the continental shelf and to build up Norwegian competency within the petroleum industry to establish the foundations of a domestic petroleum industry.
Statoil was required to discuss important issues with the Minister of Industry, later Minister of Petroleum and Energy. Statoil was also required to submit an annual report to the parliament.
In 1973 the company started work acquiring a presence in the petrochemical industry. This resulted in the development of processing plants in Rafsnes and, in partnership with Norsk Hydro, the Mongstad plant in 1980. In 1981 the company acquired, as the first Norwegian company, operator rights on the Norwegian continental shelf on the Gullfaks field. 1987-88 saw the largest scandal in the companies history, the Mongstad scandal that made the until then unassailable CEO Arve Johnsen withdraw.
In the 1980s Statoil decided to become a fully integrated petroleum company and started building the Statoil fuel station brand. The stations in Norway originated as Norol stations while the stations in Denmark and Sweden were purchased from Esso in 1985, while the stations in Ireland were purchased from British Petroleum in 1992 and ConocoPhilips Jet in the mid '90s, then sold by Statoil to Topaz Oil in 2006. Statoil also built up a network of stations in part of Eastern Europe in the 1990s.



Ireland could and should have tried to follow the same path as the Norwegians on the pretext of the Corrib oil/gas find.
Incidentally as a result of revenues from Statoil, Norway owns the largest sovereign wealth pension fund in the world.:D

cursai

whoopdedoo wrote: »

yes I did read it, you're trying to tell me I didn't read it?

you can stay laughing mate, I'll be having the last laugh at the end of the day

you thick

you sound like your going on an international killing spree ........with a bit of basket weaving/self exploring mixed in...

Padraig Mor

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Who is this "we" you refer to?

Do you speak for everybody on the web/boards/Ireland?

just curious like

The "we" is the "ye" who Whoopdedoo referred to in his post - please refer to that post if you need clarification. I'm sure however that the "we" could be extended to include the many people with the cop on to realise that there is no bizarre conspiracy behind the Shell deal, and that it is in fact probably the best deal that could have been negotiated.

Padraig Mor

Birdnuts wrote: »

According to documents recently released by Wikileaks, Shell themselves reckon there is at least 15 Corrib gas fields out there off the West coast.

Yet more lies from the S2S headbangers. Shell said no such thing - however, as always, the S2S crew just pick up on half truths and second hand comments here and there and use the ol' "if you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it" trick.

whatstherush

Birdnuts wrote: »

According to documents recently released by Wikileaks, Shell themselves reckon there is at least 15 Corrib gas fields out there off the West coast.

The full quote is “could be 20 or more Corribs out there — or very little — depending on how the exploratory drilling progresses this year.” source

Mucco

A suggestion to all those upset at Shell for potentially making money on Corrib: Buy shares in Shell, then you share the profit!

whatstherush

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Agreed, my concern about the whole thing was that Ray Burke who was the relevant minister at the time sent his whole negotiating team out of the room while he dealt with Shell.

A few years later Bertie sweetened the deal even more giving more tax rebates to Shell when he was minister for the environment.

These two statements are absolute bollix. Ray Burke was a minister in the late 80's, Bertie in the early 90's. Corrib was discovered by Enterprise Oil in 1996, which was bought by Shell in 2002. Source

So tell me LostinBlanch, why was Ray Burke negotiating with Shell over a decade before they had any involvement with the project?

Duke Leonal Felmet

Scofflaw gave a fairly comprehensive dressing down of this subject in a thread a couple of pages back. It sort of put a dampener on the idea of their being a billion trillion trillion gallons of oil and gas under our feet. Worth a read.

Pete_Cavan

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Scofflaw gave a fairly comprehensive dressing down of this subject in a thread a couple of pages back. It sort of put a dampener on the idea of their being a billion trillion trillion gallons of oil and gas under our feet. Worth a read.

Yes (I linked it in post #20 on this thread for those who missed it), but the S2S brigade here either didnt bother reading it or would rather to continue ignoring reality in favour of their conspiracy theories. IMO they would be better off reading a Dan Brown book, although they are less far fetched.

whoopdedoo

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Yes - I don't believe you read it and you've pretty much admitted this yourself.

Doubtful.




Thank you! I could report your post, but you and your S2S ilk aren't worth it TBH......

where did I admit I didn't read the damn details?!? i'm tyin to tell you I did ffs!

as regards shell to sea I have absolutely no affiliation whatsoever with them!

you are a thick

whoopdedoo

Birdnuts wrote: »

According to documents recently released by Wikileaks, Shell themselves reckon there is at least 15 Corrib gas fields out there off the West coast. Hence the option they took out on more state land in North Mayo to potentially expand the refinery at Bellanaboy(we still don't know what if anything they paid for the Coillte land they built the refinery on as both the state and SHELL refuse to discuss yet another aspect of their grubby little deal)

the land was flippin handed to them and they're due a sh1tload more too!!

of course bertie is on the board of coillte

wanker!!!!!!!!!

Robbo

GG66 wrote: »

Let's be clear on this, Shell are only the company hired to extract the oil & prior to doing so they changed all their filling stations to the name Topaz to avoid any public backlash similar to that experienced in the UK & other countries for their lack or respect for local populations

Topaz are the result of a number of Irish people (Denis O'Brien, Gerry Barrett et al) buying out Shell and Statoil's operations in Ireland. It's a popular Indymedia/S2S trope to assert that they are one and the same, sadly lacking in factual basis.

one eye

Another Dempsey disaster. Everything he touched turned to dust. Mercifully he is gone complete with fat pension and golden handshake. Good riddance.

Padraig Mor

whoopdedoo wrote: »

where did I admit I didn't read the damn details?!? i'm tyin to tell you I did ffs!

Sure :rolleyes:

That's why when you were asked for a link to the document you supposedly read you replied "I remember it was a minister outlining the deal but can't remember who, they outlined a little detail......................"

Can you show me a link to the document you read?

If not online, can you tell me where you got your hands on this document?

You didn't read 'the deal', you read/heard a half-baked ill-informed synopsis from some dingbat in Indymedia/S2S etc who wouldn't know truth if it came up and bit him on the ass - and are now repeating it as fact.



edit: Whoopdedoo: I'd be obliged if you could keep the discussion on thread please, and not on my visitor wall. Thanks.

Birdnuts

K-9 wrote: »

this Government we don't trust plus .

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/may/31/royal-dutch-shell-compensation-shareholders

So that means you trust a company that has lied to its own Shareholders in the past

Birdnuts

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Yes (I linked it in post #20 on this thread for those who missed it), but the S2S brigade here either didnt bother reading it or would rather to continue ignoring reality in favour of their conspiracy theories. IMO they would be better off reading a Dan Brown book, although they are less far fetched.

Your dreaming - oil and gas company exploration efforts are based on market prices. During the 80 and 90's there was little interest in deep water reserves since oil and gas prices were low - hence the lack of activity in Irish waters. In recent years prices have rocketed and this has lead to the exploration of deeper waters like the area around the falklands and the Arctic Ocean. What our government has done is subsidise the profits of SHELL on the back of the Irish taxpayer:mad:

uprising2

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Given that we would never have been able to extract the gas ourselves then the answer obviously is that we're not losing anything.

I start reading the thread and got as far as this, and had to reply, so forgive me if I'm miles away from whatever route the thread has since taken.

This is the exact idiotic type of thinking that has this country f****d.

The solution is simple, you source out the contracts, when they are complete you say bye bye, safe home and take control of "our" own resource.

QUOTE:
"If you live in the US and want to work overseas, understand that drilling contractors seldom if ever send lower echelon people overseas. An overseas crew might have an American tool pusher, driller, crane operator, barge engineer and electrician. Maybe a few more, maybe a few less, it varies from company to company, rig to rig, job to job."
http://www.offshoreguides.com/cptron/contact_drilling_contractors.htm

Get the "experts" in to do the work we can't, when it's done, pay whats owed or come to some agreement to pay x amount over x years then contract complete, nice doing business, goodbye, we own the suppy, it's our's, all our's!!!.

Irish are not thick either, home grown experts are only a few years away, foreign companies can be employed as and when needed, instead of bright young minds heading off to australia or where-ever, a few could be highly trained in every aspect of the industry and "allowed" run a gas supply.

Corrib is a sell out, it's been stolen and sold to the lowest bidder for the benefit of the few.

Irish Minister Marks Vermilion's Entry into Corrib Gas Devt
Mr. Conor Lenihan, T.D., Minister of State for Natural Resources and Knowledge Society, has welcomed the entry of a new company into the Irish petroleum market following the sale of Marathon Petroleum Hibernia Limited's 18.5% interest in the Corrib Gas Field to Vermilion Energy Trust. Vermillion Energy Trust is a Canadian based international energy producer with operations in Canada, Europe (France and the Netherlands) and Australia. The companies closed the transaction on Thursday, July 30, 2009
http://www.rigzone.com/news/article.asp?a_id=79013

Welcome to Ireland, take what you want and give us the crumbs, thank you very much sir, I'm a shaking it there boss, Please sir, may I have some more, Oliver "Ireland" Twist.


Broadhaven Bay is the proposed area to discharge toxic waste from the refining process

The plant is expected by Shell to employ approximately 55 workers when operational.
It's a f*****g joke, but it's not funny, well it is funny for a few.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrib_gas_project

Scofflaw

Do we really have to go over this again? The amount of oil and gas "estimated" in media sources is next to meaningless, we're getting taxes from Corrib (or will be - estimated at €1.3bn when the field was valued at c. €7bn), we're getting more taxes from any further discoveries, and you cannot logically claim simultaneously that the Burke deal was a giveaway and that there's billions out there but the oil companies are pretending there isn't. One or the other, not both.

Shell do not think there's 20 more Corribs out there. The cable in question said that Ireland's hope was to find something like that in 2008:

(C) Ireland’s real hope, however, is to find more gas in the Porcupine Basin in the North Atlantic. Shell reps and Bazilian told the Embassy that 2008 could be a big year for gas exploration in Ireland. Shell’s Cetti said there “could be 20 or more Corribs out there — or very little — depending on how the exploratory drilling progresses this year.” The Irish government just announced the results of the latest round of license tendering for fields in the North Atlantic. ExxonMobil (and partners) won two of the four licenses up for grabs.

What did they actually find in 2008? Not 20 Corribs.

We don't have the know-how to put together a State oil company. That's got nothing to do with not being able to hire the right people - we don't even have people who know the right people to hire.

We don't have any pressing reason to put together a State oil company - not even one that just consists of a partner that puts in no expertise and just takes a slice of the profits, because we already do that by charging taxes. There is absolutely no reason at all for the State to really do oil exploration - we could throw billions down that hole without any return.

Offshore Ireland is a next-to-unknown quantity in terms of actual potential, and what is known is disappointing - small and heavily chopped up reservoirs, gas and condensate rather than oil, 30 dusters drilled for every well with a show. Corrib is no Ekofisk (the field that kick-started the Norwegian oil industry) - Ekofisk was the biggest ever discovery, Corrib is smaller than Kinsale. Ekofisk was also in shallow enough water to permit use of oil barges - virtually the entire Irish offshore is deep enough to represent the limits of current technological capability.

Most of our supposed billions in oil and gas exist only in puff pieces written by small exploration companies hoping to be bought out by oil majors or by the PAD trying to drum up licence auction bids. What's known to be out there is mostly only marginally profitable at times of relatively high petroleum prices.

We don't have anything to show for the supposedly vast resources of the Irish offshore because they just simply haven't ever been shown to exist. They are, at this moment in time, entirely speculative, which is a pretty good approximation to imaginary. You can talk about them all you like, but there's next to sod-all to actually back up them up in reality. Don't get confused by Corrib - it's a flea's fart in world gas terms, and we are already taxing it.

wearily,
Scofflaw

yosemite_sam

slimjimmc wrote: »

Did he drill 83km out into the Atlantic while bobbying on 355m of ocean?

there are companies that do the drilling, all these skills are hired in

yosemite_sam

Scofflaw wrote: »

Do we really have to go over this again? The amount of oil and gas "estimated" in media sources is next to meaningless, we're getting taxes from Corrib (or will be - estimated at €1.3bn when the field was valued at c. €7bn), we're getting more taxes from any further discoveries, and you cannot logically claim simultaneously that the Burke deal was a giveaway and that there's billions out there but the oil companies are pretending there isn't. One or the other, not both.

Shell do not think there's 20 more Corribs out there. The cable in question said that Ireland's hope was to find something like that in 2008:



What did they actually find in 2008? Not 20 Corribs.

We don't have the know-how to put together a State oil company. That's got nothing to do with not being able to hire the right people - we don't even have people who know the right people to hire.

We don't have any pressing reason to put together a State oil company - not even one that just consists of a partner that puts in no expertise and just takes a slice of the profits, because we already do that by charging taxes. There is absolutely no reason at all for the State to really do oil exploration - we could throw billions down that hole without any return.

Offshore Ireland is a next-to-unknown quantity in terms of actual potential, and what is known is disappointing - small and heavily chopped up reservoirs, gas and condensate rather than oil, 30 dusters drilled for every well with a show. Corrib is no Ekofisk (the field that kick-started the Norwegian oil industry) - Ekofisk was the biggest ever discovery, Corrib is smaller than Kinsale. Ekofisk was also in shallow enough water to permit use of oil barges - virtually the entire Irish offshore is deep enough to represent the limits of current technological capability.

Most of our supposed billions in oil and gas exist only in puff pieces written by small exploration companies hoping to be bought out by oil majors or by the PAD trying to drum up licence auction bids. What's known to be out there is mostly only marginally profitable at times of relatively high petroleum prices.

We don't have anything to show for the supposedly vast resources of the Irish offshore because they just simply haven't ever been shown to exist. They are, at this moment in time, entirely speculative, which is a pretty good approximation to imaginary. You can talk about them all you like, but there's next to sod-all to actually back up them up in reality. Don't get confused by Corrib - it's a flea's fart in world gas terms, and we are already taxing it.

wearily,
Scofflaw

Ah the black stuff
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ec0fb0c4-5554-11de-b5d4-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1Dhkz0Iuq

Scofflaw

yosemite_sam wrote: »

Ah the black stuff
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ec0fb0c4-5554-11de-b5d4-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1Dhkz0Iuq

Let me know when they've drilled this year's exploratory wells. All they have at the moment is a show of oil and an exciting estimate of potential. Granted that's the first show of oil in 28 years, of course.

And, yes, we'll be taxing it, too, if it turns out to be a commercial find.

cordially,
Scofflaw

hinault

Scofflaw wrote: »

Let me know when they've drilled this year's exploratory wells. All they have at the moment is a show of oil and an exciting estimate of potential. Granted that's the first show of oil in 28 years, of course.

And, yes, we'll be taxing it, too, if it turns out to be a commercial find.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Hopefully if they do strike another deal, the State will impose a more robust tax than the current 25% rate and zero rate royalty tax/charge (zero rate mineral extraction tax).

Bogsnorkler

I blame BP.

lol jk

Scofflaw

hinault wrote: »

Hopefully if they do strike another deal, the State will impose a more robust tax than the current 25% rate and zero rate royalty tax/charge (zero rate mineral extraction tax).

That's not quite the current deal (it's a 25-40% profits tax on top of the corporation tax), but yes, if there's more out there (and I don't mean another tiddler like Corrib) then it becomes possible to make the tax regime more demanding. Currently, we have one of the world's more attractive petroleum tax regimes, because we won't get exploration without it - but if there are proven serious reserves out there, the companies will come in as long as they can still make money. At that stage it becomes worth talking about an Irish State oil company, too, and/or developing an Irish offshore industry.

For the moment, though, it's all just pie in the sky.

cordially,
Scofflaw

hinault

Scofflaw wrote: »

That's not quite the current deal (it's a 25-40% profits tax on top of the corporation tax), but yes, if there's more out there (and I don't mean another tiddler like Corrib) then it becomes possible to make the tax regime more demanding. Currently, we have one of the world's more attractive petroleum tax regimes, because we won't get exploration without it - but if there are proven serious reserves out there, the companies will come in as long as they can still make money. At that stage it becomes worth talking about an Irish State oil company, too, and/or developing an Irish offshore industry.

For the moment, though, it's all just pie in the sky.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I think you're correct in suggesting that some thought should be give to creating an Irish State oil company if there are commercially viable deposits to
extract/refine.
If the Norwegians can do it, so can we!

I also think that given the substantial increase in the demand for energy worldwide (especially so with the commercial growth in markets like China, India and Brazil) this demand for energy will not decrease.
Therefore exploration firms will be predisposed to looking at fields which may not have been viable previously.