Global Revolution?

ninebeanrows

It has struck me over the last few months that we are potentially entering a worldwide revolution against our capitalist and corrupt form of democracy or for some lack of democracy.

With the uprising in Tunisia, Egypt.. now Serbia, riots in Greece, stance in Ireland for early election.

General feeling across the globe is for real change.

And with the USA a tinder box for a revolt with deep deep inequality and with its people becoming informed and educated.

I think the next few years may define the World for a century, big change is coming.

And this is not a looney conspiracy. The capitalist world is dying.

Mr Nikolic told the protesters: "Elsewhere in the world people are telling governments they should listen to the people.

Naikon

It won't happen. The elite minority of the world population control the distribution of wealth. Capitalism is really just a euphemism for slavery. It's not in our nature to be fair.

I reckon we're seeing the start of it..
some us trend predictor or something (think it might have been zogby) predicted the youth would rise up this year too..
it could be the move past statism too though..into fascism/corporatism..go beyond the governments, to capitalism 2.0..
we'll see what happens..

Shulgin

You can smell it in the air.

It is coming alright. The systems we have at the moment are broken way beyond repair and are obselete . Time to move on.

The Hill Billy

Tunisia, Egypt = Uprising
Greece = Riots
Ireland = Calls for an early election

I think that capitalism is safe & sound in Ireland for the time being.

CorkMan

Well Communism doesn't work, unless people are represeed. I think full out capitalism isn't the way either.

Democratic socialism is the way forward IMO.

Kev_ps3

Weathercheck wrote: »

It has struck me over the last few months that we are potentially entering a worldwide revolution against our capitalist and corrupt form of democracy or for some lack of democracy.

With the uprising in Tunisia, Egypt.. now Serbia, riots in Greece, stance in Ireland for early election.

General feeling across the globe is for real change.

And with the USA a tinder box for a revolt with deep deep inequality and with its people becoming informed and educated.

I think the next few years may define the World for a century, big change is coming.

And this is not a looney conspiracy. The capitalist world is dying.

lol Ireland is going to vote in FG, possibly a more right-wing government then we have at present.

Mahatma coat

Nationoughianal Schooshalizim FTW

Well, with global energy supplies reaching their limits and the costs of fuel rising rapidly in real terms, agriculture is getting more expensive resulting in higher food prices.
Add in a few natural disasters (Russian heat wave, floods &drought etc) that have happened in the past year, causing restricted supplies of staple food also resulting in higher food prices.

Combine these together with a third world population that are unable to affort to eat properly when prices rise, and you have a recipie for disorder.

Egypt also had the problem of its oil fields "peaking" and is now no longer able to export oil with a resulting loss of its primary income.

Poor people who are well fed just get on with it. Poor and hungry people riot!

bnt

In most places, these rioters are like dogs chasing cars: if they won power, they wouldn't know what to do with it. When someone comes along who does know what to do, their motives might not align with those of the rioters, but instead be focused on gaining power for its own sake i.e. a politician. I'm never confident that you can achieve true, long-term progress through revolution: too often they go too far, requiring another revolution to restore sanity. Or forceful government control to maintain the "revolution", as in Cuba. You can think of it as the political equivalent of an economic "boom and bust". :rolleyes:

bnt

bnt wrote: »

In most places, these rioters are like dogs chasing cars: if they won power, they wouldn't know what to do with it. When someone comes along who does know what to do, their motives might not align with those of the rioters, but instead be focused on gaining power for its own sake i.e. a politician. I'm never confident that you can achieve true, long-term progress through revolution: too often they go too far, requiring another revolution to restore sanity. Or forceful government control to maintain the "revolution", as in Cuba. You can think of it as the political equivalent of an economic "boom and bust". :rolleyes:

In most places, all they want is an end to the grinding poverty and falling living standards many are suffering as a fallout from the global credit crunch! It's happened frequently in the past, and no doubt will be a common feature in the future.

If When the effects of peak oil, overpopulation & economic decline start to really bite (this recession is just a taster) the riots will spread to "the West".

Amhran Nua

Hi there.

There will not be a global communist revolution, apocalypse, or an end to life as we know it. There have been plenty of other recessions and the world ticked over just fine.

That is all.

whoopdedoo

oh it's coming alright, I've been sayin it for a while myself, people will eventually give in and ask what the fcuk is going on and demand change!!

it won't come quick enough either! same blood lines running things world wide for far too long

Guill

I just ran to my window and had a look out!
Seems fine to me.
Just two cows strolling accross a field.
Ill wait here, watching,and keep ye informed as soon as i see this revolution.

nyarlothothep

Human nature is variable, we can be unfair, fair, good, bad etc. There is no one definition for it nor is there is any scientific evidence which designates our nature to be weighted towards one characteristic or another, so arguments based on this pretext for the impossibility of a better future are fallacious, the choice is in our hands. In fact the very differentiation in levels of fairness and equality across societies indicates that our world is very much what we make of it and not governed by an essentialist definition of human nature.

bnt

Deleted User wrote: »

In most places, all they want is an end to the grinding poverty and falling living standards many are suffering as a fallout from the global credit crunch! It's happened frequently in the past, and no doubt will be a common feature in the future.

I agree - I'm just thinking about how they might actually achieve those goals. You've described the problem, but you haven't described a solution. The credit crunch was a natural reaction to the credit boom, after all: it's not evil, or a conspiracy, it's what happens when banks and financiers sober up after a lending binge. ("Oh, me head... I'm never doing that again!")

In Egypt, for example, the Army has been the organisation with the money and power, and they play a major role in the economy of the whole country. Then there's also the fact that they're a major employer, and not just through conscription. Any solution to Egypt's problems must therefore involve the Army. The country's population has doubled in the last 40 years, and there's a surplus of young people with few employment prospects: unemployment is running at an estimated 40%. Young people need jobs to feel secure; who's going to provide them? Will a new regime turn Egypt in to a new China - a world sweatshop? Or will they allow unfettered emigration, and if so, where do the young people go to find work? Europe, with its own burgeoning unemployment crisis?

Worztron

Weathercheck wrote: »

The capitalist world is dying.

Hi Weathercheck.

Please watch the three Zeitgeist movies. http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
Fascinating views. I too wish for an end to this horrible capitalist system. Capitalism and the environment are on a head on collision.

orourkeda

You cant beat a decent mill up.

bnt

bnt wrote: »

I agree - I'm just thinking about how they might actually achieve those goals. You've described the problem, but you haven't described a solution. The credit crunch was a natural reaction to the credit boom, after all: it's not evil, or a conspiracy, it's what happens when banks and financiers sober up after a lending binge. ("Oh, me head... I'm never doing that again!")

I haven't described a solution, there isn't an easy solution.
Cold turkey is the solution, without some magical Steorn device to replace fossil fuels, energy depletion will eventually be the ruin of all of us.
Abundant fossil fuels allow for advanced agriculture, population growth and economic growth.
Like the fire triangle needs all three elements to burn, modern BAU life needs; Growth in population, food & fuel supply to generate economic growth.

Remove one of those drivers and the system starts to crumble, well it has already started.

mickydoomsux

Is the sky falling again?

Yet another flavour of the month "catastrophe" that will amount to nothing.

Earthhorse

Weathercheck wrote: »

I think the next few years may define the World for a century, big change is coming.

And this is not a looney conspiracy. The capitalist world is dying.

Okay but what does M.T. Cranium predict?

Amhran Nua

Deleted User wrote: »

without some magical Steorn device to replace fossil fuels, energy depletion will eventually be the ruin of all of us.

You could produce 100% of the world's energy, power and fuel needs by covering 2% of the unpopulated areas of the Sahara in photovoltaic cells.

Seriously, relax.

Amhran Nua

Amhran Nua wrote: »

You could produce 100% of the world's energy, power and fuel needs by covering 2% of the unpopulated areas of the Sahara in photovoltaic cells.

Seriously, relax.

I hope so, but there is a big difference between could and can!
Even if it's theoretically possible, is it practicable to build and operate?

Amhran Nua

Deleted User wrote: »

Even if it's theoretically possible, is it practicable to build and operate?

Not as practical as siting renewable energy generation facilities at any one of countless excellent locations around the world, it's an example to prove the point (although I believe DESERTEC are already working on a practical implementation of the Sahara idea) - we're absolutely drowning in energy, and we will continue to be as long as the sun keeps shining and the wind keeps blowing.

I'm not worried about peak oil or one billion Chinese people who want a western lifestyle, there is a gigantic overabundance of supply, we just need to build out the infrastructure to take advantage of it.

That's not to say there won't be minor bumps in the road, but we'll muddle through just fine.

iPlop

Deleted User wrote: »

I reckon we're seeing the start of it..
some us trend predictor or something (think it might have been zogby) predicted the youth would rise up this year too..
it could be the move past statism too though..into fascism/corporatism..go beyond the governments, to capitalism 2.0..
we'll see what happens..

It's this guy here you speak of ,I have read his trends for years and he's spot on nearly every time

http://www.trendsresearch.com/index.htm

peasant

This notion of a global revolution (for the eventual betterment of all) is a bit too romantic. There is no common global human goal of more fairness, democracy, equality or whatever. These things sound good on paper, but in the end people(s) will always be more egotistical than idealistic.

There willl be local revolutions on a global basis in the same way that there always have been local revolutions, just more of them and even bloodier ones.

Here in the "west" these will be airmchair revolutions where one form of governement is exchanged for another with no great net result ...we are too comfortable with the status quo for massive upheaval.

What will make things interesting is when energy and food runs out and those countries that supply us with one or the other will close the tap and keep it for themselves. When money becomes meaningless because it doesn't buy the essentials anymore.
But even then, there will be no global revolution with us ending up in some star trek kind of society where the betterment of all is the great goal, instead we will end up in a world of tribal wars over the control of resources.
It'll be messy.

Enjoy capitalism while it lasts

Standman

on a lighter note, I just had a delicious cheese sandwich!

Glenster

A bunch of arabs throwing rocks at each other and looting museums does not a global uprising make.

When a civilized country has an uprising we'll talk.

North_West_Art

This video shows 24 different countries that began 2011 with protests. The video shows the country location and news about the protest/riot. 2011 protests are increasing in quantity and support. Countries shown are Albania, Algeria, Argentina, Australia, Bangladesh, Belgium, Canada, Chile, Cuba, Cyprus, Egypt, Greece, Honduras, India, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Tunisia, Turkey, United Kingdom, United States of America, Venezuela and Yemen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2F9kn9KfFA

North_West_Art

North_West_Art wrote: »

This video shows 24 different countries that began 2011 with protests. The video shows the country location and news about the protest/riot. 2011 protests are increasing in quantity and support. Countries shown are Albania, Algeria, Argentina, Australia, Bangladesh, Belgium, Canada, Chile, Cuba, Cyprus, Egypt, Greece, Honduras, India, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Tunisia, Turkey, United Kingdom, United States of America, Venezuela and Yemen.

Many of those protests are about different things, but the common thread is global recession.

North_West_Art

the riots in Algeria seemed to have a knock-on effect across North Africa, Tunisia followed, then Egypt, now Yemen in the Persian Gulf

whiteonion

Amhran Nua wrote: »

You could produce 100% of the world's energy, power and fuel needs by covering 2% of the unpopulated areas of the Sahara in photovoltaic cells.

Seriously, relax.

If it was so simple why hasn't this already been done?

ejmaztec

Deleted User wrote: »

I hope so, but there is a big difference between could and can!
Even if it's theoretically possible, is it practicable to build and operate?

...and whoever had control of it would hold the rest of us to ransom.

mickydoomsux

whiteonion wrote: »

If it was so simple why hasn't this already been done?

The cost far outstrips the benefit at present. We're set up to have oil as our main energy source.

If the last drop of oil came out of the ground today, there'd be a solution to the energy "crisis" by tomorrow morning.

North_West_Art

whiteonion wrote: »

If it was so simple why hasn't this already been done?

they are planning this already (Im dragging the thread off topic here)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxgaoYZflRc

Badgermonkey

I'd support Boyd Barrett were it not for the whiny self righteousness.

Oh, and the economic policies which are like something that came to George Galloway in a dream.

ejmaztec

ejmaztec wrote: »

...and whoever had control of it would hold the rest of us to ransom.

Bingo! China is already buying up large chunks of Africa for food production, kicking out the locals in the process then damming up rivers for irrigation etc.

edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0R3woOg_gQ
Without a UN type army safeguarding it, it and its interconnectors would be prime targets for terrorists attacks as well.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Hi there.

There will not be a global communist revolution, apocalypse, or an end to life as we know it. There have been plenty of other recessions and the world ticked over just fine.

That is all.

A very very illogical statement to make. "Because it hasn't happened before means it will never happen in the future"... wtf?

That's an absurd thought.

Coriolanus

Things would need to get much worse for the Irish to riot on the scale of Egypt et al. Poverty, imo, won't be enough to do it. I don't mean it in a bad way but we as individuals seem to have a short fuse, but as a nation have a bloody long one.

Worztron

whiteonion wrote: »

If it was so simple why hasn't this already been done?

Because it would diminish profits from fossil fuel use, especially from oil. The capitalist system would much rather keep its huge profits coming in rather than use a clean renewable energy source such as solar, wind, tidal, wave, etc.

CorkMan

Guill wrote: »

I just ran to my window and had a look out!
Seems fine to me.
Just two cows strolling accross a field.
Ill wait here, watching,and keep ye informed as soon as i see this revolution.

Keep an eye out for a piece of hay that will blow across the field. That is supposed to be the signal for commencement.

Worztron

Worztron wrote: »

Because it would diminish profits from fossil fuel use, especially from oil. The capitalist system would much rather keep its huge profits coming in rather than use a clean renewable energy source such as solar, wind, tidal, wave, etc.

Nothing to do with building in an unstable part of the world, thousands of KM away from the consumers, just think of the losses in the transmission lines for starters, then there is the sand, it will make panels opaque after the first sandstorm etc etc.

Reducing consumption is the key to avoiding energy starvation in the future.

Worztron

Deleted User wrote: »

Nothing to do with building in an unstable part of the world, thousands of KM away from the consumers, just think of the losses in the transmission lines for starters, then there is the sand, it will make panels opaque after the first sandstorm etc etc.

Reducing consumption is the key to avoiding energy starvation in the future.

You could build solar panels in stable parts of the world with a lot of sun shine (i.e. Australia, Spain, parts of USA, etc.). You forgot about the other renewable energy sources: tidal, wave & wind. Also there is geothermal energy.

Fossil fuels took millions of years to make, they will be gone before long. They are disastrous to the environment.

Amhran Nua

ejmaztec wrote: »

...and whoever had control of it would hold the rest of us to ransom.

The Sahara sunfarms aren't the best world solution, it's a number which highlights that there is no energy shortage, and there will be no energy shortage.

I've already said that a far better idea is to site renewable energy plants scattered all over the world in the huge number of excellent locations available.

Nobody is seriously suggesting turning the Sahara into a giant battery for the entire world, since among other things it is dark half the time there.

The bottom line is, if you were to start from scratch with a blank sheet and today's technology, solar/wind/etc would be a complete no brainer. However we took a different route, which probably made sense at the time (immature wind and solar tech) and now have an immense fossil fuel infrastructure which actually makes it cheaper just to pump and dig the stuff out of the ground. The costs for building this infrastructure have long been paid, which is why it seems cheaper.

We need to put in a deliberate effort to move to renewable sources at this stage so we don't get caught with our pants down up the road, and this is in fact what is happening.

So again, there's no energy crisis, and probably never will be. No food crisis either while we're on the topic.

Amhran Nua

Deleted User wrote: »

thousands of KM away from the consumers, just think of the losses in the transmission lines for starters,

You could build a HVDC line direct from here to the Philippines and incur losses of a grand total of 20-30%, less than you'd lose from distribution.

Worztron

Worztron wrote: »

You could build solar panels in stable parts of the world with a lot of sun shine (i.e. Australia, Spain, parts of USA, etc.). You forgot about the other renewable energy sources: tidal, wave & wind. Also there is geothermal energy.

Fossil fuels took millions of years to make, they will be gone before long. They are disastrous to the environment.

Yes, you're correct, I was only referring to the Sahara project.

But my main point about reducing consumption has to be the top priority, to provide all the energy required to run our wasteful BAU ways would consume huge amounts of steel concrete and oil to manufacture the infrastructure to support any renewable energy solution.

Halve the consumption, halve the power generation capacity needed, ban life limited consumer junk by compelling manufacturers to make products that have as long a life as is reasonably practical, Light bulbs used to last at least 2500 hours before manufacturers got together and jointly reduced that to 1000 hours, all this wasteful consumption is ultimately stealing from the third world.


As for a solution to the unrest in parts of the world.
Cancel their debts for starters, then where possible pursuade them to produce their own food, ban exports from countries that have famine like conditions. Population control through education & contraception must also be a very high priority, over population is a primary cause of famine.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Amhran Nua wrote: »

The Sahara sunfarms aren't the best world solution, it's a number which highlights that there is no energy shortage, and there will be no energy shortage.

I've already said that a far better idea is to site renewable energy plants scattered all over the world in the huge number of excellent locations available.

Nobody is seriously suggesting turning the Sahara into a giant battery for the entire world, since among other things it is dark half the time there.

The bottom line is, if you were to start from scratch with a blank sheet and today's technology, solar/wind/etc would be a complete no brainer. However we took a different route, which probably made sense at the time (immature wind and solar tech) and now have an immense fossil fuel infrastructure which actually makes it cheaper just to pump and dig the stuff out of the ground. The costs for building this infrastructure have long been paid, which is why it seems cheaper.

We need to put in a deliberate effort to move to renewable sources at this stage so we don't get caught with our pants down up the road, and this is in fact what is happening.

So again, there's no energy crisis, and probably never will be. No food crisis either while we're on the topic.

Agreed, but try telling the starving people of this world there is no food shortage. I wonder how you would be recieved...

Amhran Nua

Deleted User wrote: »

But my main point about reducing consumption has to be the top priority

Making use of resources more efficiently should definetely be a priority, we don't have to accept a reduction in quality of life to do that however. There's plenty for everyone, plenty to go round.

Mateo Mammoth Flame wrote: »

Agreed, but try telling the starving people of this world there is no food shortage. I wonder how you would be recieved...

I doubt I would be received, since the dictators causing them to starve probably wouldn't allow me to be heard in the first place.

Eric Cartman

everyone protesting the goverments all over the world have 1 thing in common - theyre all poor / homeless / lower middle class - the goverment and the rich all have money for armoured vehicles, private police forces etc.... revolutions were easier when countriees were isolated, would be fierce hard to overthrow some goverments like egypts

Amhran Nua

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Making use of resources more efficiently should definetely be a priority, we don't have to accept a reduction in quality of life to do that however.

If you can buy stuff that lasts for 10 years for 5% more than the same with a five year life, you only have to buy one instead of two every ten years and save almost half the cost of buying two.
Your quality of life will improve as you now have some extra money to spend on leasure, or work less hard!

Rabble Rabble

A "communist" revolution? Cuba - 25% private sector already - is talking about liberalising it's markets - that leaves the fantastic North Korea as the only real Marxist State left, a repressed hermit hermit State stuck in the 50's. If that.

Can someone model the communist takeover in Ireland? The takeover of all agricultural land ( leading to famine and civil war), the takeover of all private sector companies - leading to massive shortages and civil war ( as people resist), the mass exodus of capital, the fleeing of multinationals leaving the entire private sector unemployed. The State is not going to replace Apple, Intel and IBM. Seriously.

The chances of a left wing revolution are 0%. We are going to vote Fine Gael.

As for the revolutionary trends in the rest of the world, if they dont go more capitalist and democratic, they will go more autocratic and Islamist.

The chances of a worldwide left wing revolution is 0%. The chances of an Islamic revolution is a good bit higher. They will be hanging any remaining communists from the trees.

So, um, no. I would put away Marx and take up Quytb, if you are interested in revolutions.