What planet are this jury on-killing of Robbie McCallion

happyhappy

I was stunned when I saw this verdict. It really does make u think about what the some of the public expect of gardai nowadays and genuinely why do we bother anymore!



I wonder if the dpp will have grounds to seek a retrial based on the trial judges charge to the jury. The wording of it was in today's Irish times and il try get a link to it. In my very humble opinion he mislead in his charge to the jury in what he said, if what was reported was exactly what he said.

Generally speaking I believe that ordinary people on juries are completely intimidated by both the court system and how the principle of reasonable doubt is explained to them. They are almost too scared to make the hard decision and convict and therefore take the easier option and acquit.

DubiousV

Am sickened beyond words by this verdict. Who answers for the death of a Garda in the line of duty? It's not like this was some innoccuous accident. For shame the jury.

999nobody

Death of a Guard in the comission of a crime = mandatory life sentence.
Law and order must be protected.

ILA

Should this forum not be renamed? Maybe the boards.ie Blueshirt forum would be more appropriate from some of the comments here.

shampon

ILA wrote: »

Should this forum not be renamed? Maybe the boards.ie Blueshirt forum would be more appropriate from some of the comments here.

Ah the token response from the token Sinn Féin supporter.

AlekSmart

happyhappy wrote: »

It really does make u think about what the some of the public expect of gardai nowadays



I wonder if the dpp will have grounds to seek a retrial based on the trial judges charge to the jury. The wording of it was in today's Irish times and il try get a link to it. In my very humble opinion he mislead in his charge to the jury in what he said, if what was reported was exactly what he said.

Generally speaking I believe that ordinary people on juries are completely intimidated by both the court system and how the principle of reasonable doubt is explained to them. They are almost too scared to make the hard decision and convict and therefore take the easier option and acquit.

The Irish Times article from 5th Feb:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0205/1224289076039.html

The Judges phraseology,coming from a senior Law Officer,would appear to be somewhat predjudicial to the maintenance of a non-biased jury.

I would be very interested to hear Judge O Hagan`s reasoning behind these words....

Before sending the jury out to consider their verdict, Judge John O’Hagan had warned the 12-person jury that they could not change their minds once a decision was made.

He also said that, while it was tragic, they should not be carried away by the fact that the victim was a garda.

He told the jury that in coming to a verdict they should be sure it was the right thing to do.

“You cannot say later that ‘Oh my God what have I done’.

“There is tragedy on both sides and nobody can mend that. But you are asked to ask yourself if there was a high degree of negligence that led to manslaughter.

“Don’t be carried away by the fact that he was a garda. You must look at it in a cold and a calculated manner,” he said.

Judge O Hagan in this case appears to have decided,for his own as yet unexplained reasons,to somehow reduce the stature of an On-Duty Garda and that,more than any other aspect of his charge-to-jury requires urgent clarification.

In cases such as this,yet again we see the Judiciary with free rein to influence what is supposed to be an unbiased collection of the accused persons peers.

I would suggest also that the DPP,if that office is to retain any form of integrity,must urgently seek some form of review of Judge O Hagans charge.

That single line spoken in the hush of a Courtroom really does send out a chilling message to those career criminals who grow ever bolder as the days pass..

"Don’t be carried away by the fact that he was a Garda"


ILA posted :

Should this forum not be renamed? Maybe the boards.ie Blueshirt forum would be more appropriate from some of the comments here.

Perhaps ILA is more concerned at seeing some form of Political element to the case,but my concerns are far more basic than that.

CaseyRyback

Point well made.

Don't be carried away by the fact he was a Garda.

In most instances, where the victim is an on-duty police officer, this is considered an aggravating factor, and often is reflected in the tariff, i.e capital murder.

However I am not surprised by this outlandish comment. The Bench has been in dire need of overhaul for some time now, particular in regards to accountability.

ILA

Look, this was a terrible case and I believe that the decision is way off. I couldn't say what should be done with the culprit as I would most certainly be banned or suffer infraction. I was disturbed by this case when it first occurred, and had hoped that those responsible would face the full rigour of the law.

But, seriously, what has Sinn Fein got to do with anything in this case? I'm sick and tired of people coming on certain forums to have a good rant and indulge in their own petty bias, hoping they'll find a sympathetic audience. I don't think it should be tolerated, I could understand it if it was in After Hours but its not.

I don't know of anything political related to this case, and everyone, regardless of political persuation should be appalled at what happened to the Garda in question.

AlekSmart

But, seriously, what has Sinn Fein got to do with anything in this case? I'm sick and tired of people coming on certain forums to have a good rant and indulge in their own petty bias, hoping they'll find a sympathetic audience. I don't think it should be tolerated, I could understand it if it was in After Hours but its not.

A fair enough point ILA,but one which if it is really causing you bother,should be directed to the mods off thread.

The "Blueshirt" title did`nt really set your post much beyond the one`s you complained of ?

In this particular case I really don`t ascribe much importance to the posts you appear to refer to and would simply ignore them ?

shampon

ILA wrote: »

Look, this was a terrible case and I believe that the decision is way off. I couldn't say what should be done with the culprit as I would most certainly be banned or suffer infraction. I was disturbed by this case when it first occurred, and had hoped that those responsible would face the full rigour of the law.

But, seriously, what has Sinn Fein got to do with anything in this case? I'm sick and tired of people coming on certain forums to have a good rant and indulge in their own petty bias, hoping they'll find a sympathetic audience. I don't think it should be tolerated, I could understand it if it was in After Hours but its not.

I don't know of anything political related to this case, and everyone, regardless of political persuation should be appalled at what happened to the Garda in question.

I presume then that your Blueshirt remark was made in jest then.

Every crime in the state is a result of politics. Whether that be failed social and economic policies or the political nature of judicial appointments. And everyone is appalled at what happened in this case. The Judiciary in this country are out of touch with reality and many are generous in the sentences they hand out. They let a gouger walk for killing a Garda, but they'll bring a Garda to court for protecting the ordinary decent people of the country. It's a joke.

If Garda Mccallion was killed by accident the not guilty verdict would be somewhat understandable...the fact that the gouger drove at three Guards in a car with no regard for their lives shows a callousness that we as a society have left un-checked, we wont ever admit the root causes of this low regard for human life, but it comes from the top of the Government, who seem to regard human life as cheap. Hence their is a political nature to every crime in this country you can bury your head in the sand, but the political system of this country must take some blame for what happened and the ensuing court case.

ILA

shampon wrote: »

I presume then that your Blueshirt remark was made in jest then.

Every crime in the state is a result of politics. Whether that be failed social and economic policies or the political nature of judicial appointments. And everyone is appalled at what happened in this case. The Judiciary in this country are out of touch with reality and many are generous in the sentences they hand out. They let a gouger walk for killing a Garda, but they'll bring a Garda to court for protecting the ordinary decent people of the country. It's a joke.

If Garda Mccallion was killed by accident the not guilty verdict would be somewhat understandable...the fact that the gouger drove at three Guards in a car with no regard for their lives shows a callousness that we as a society have left un-checked, we wont ever admit the root causes of this low regard for human life, but it comes from the top of the Government, who seem to regard human life as cheap. Hence their is a political nature to every crime in this country you can bury your head in the sand, but the political system of this country must take some blame for what happened and the ensuing court case.

Yes it was in jest, since many of those I was complaining about, from previous postings, have quiet a record of distasteful posts.

However I agree to a point. The Oireacthas has the sole power to enact legislation in this country. So there is a political dimension to the remedies which are available and also, limited powers relating the judiciary (due to the so-called separation of powers).

If the political process is broken, then you only have yourself and others to blame. Getting involved in the political process is the only way that it can ever change but I would disagree with any implication that Sinn Fein is soft on common crime (political violence is different in my opinion), and I and others who actively support that party would be in favour of genuine improvement of the legal system, not just the stylishly Lefty proposals, but serious stuff like mandatory sentencing.

Some might dismiss my position as hypocritical based on the past but a party isn't frozen in time, it changes, it evolves. Just look at the history of Fianna Fail, and to a lesser extent, Fine Gael, in which people who believed in political violence evolved and took a stake in society.

We all interact with the same gougers, we all get robbed, assaulted, and sometimes killed by the same criminals in our communities. We all want to law and order in a structured, albeit, more equitable society.

shampon

ILA wrote: »

Yes it was in jest, since many of those I was complaining about, from previous postings, have quiet a record of distasteful posts.

However I agree to a point. The Oireacthas has the sole power to enact legislation in this country. So there is a political dimension to the remedies which are available and also, limited powers relating the judiciary (due to the so-called separation of powers).

If the political process is broken, then you only have yourself and others to blame. Getting involved in the political process is the only way that it can ever change but I would disagree with any implication that Sinn Fein is soft on common crime (political violence is different in my opinion), and I and others who actively support that party would be in favour of genuine improvement of the legal system, not just the stylishly Lefty proposals, but serious stuff like mandatory sentencing.

Some might dismiss my position as hypocritical based on the past but a party isn't frozen in time, it changes, it evolves. Just look at the history of Fianna Fail, and to a lesser extent, Fine Gael, in which people who believed in political violence evolved and took a stake in society.

We all interact with the same gougers, we all get robbed, assaulted, and sometimes killed by the same criminals in our communities. We all want to law and order in a structured, albeit, more equitable society.

I can see your point but I doubt that any political party gives two ****s about any member of AGS...

Fozzie Bear

ILA wrote: »

But, seriously, what has Sinn Fein got to do with anything in this case?

Nothing directly to this case no, but there again Sinn Fein and the deaths of Gardai are not happy bedfellows either ILA, I think you might privately agree.

ILA wrote: »

....and everyone, regardless of political persuation should be appalled at what happened to the Garda in question

The Garda in question here, yes I bet everyone would have no problem with being appalled and rightly so. If the same question were asked of Jerry McCabes murder and say Martin Ferris or other SF supporters opinion of it?

Well..... just go searching on boards for that and see what some people have to say. Apparently Jerry was at fault for being murdered.....

Dotsey wrote: »

His name was actually Jerry McCabe. So many people take an interest in this mans life yet they cant even spell his name properly which means theyve obviously never paid much attention to the case and use it as their one stick to bring up on every thread about Sinn Fein.
Gerry Adams as president of Sinn Fein isn't the man to condemn the killing.
The robbery in question was organised at local level by PIRA members which is why the Army Council initially denied involvment as they knew nothing about it. The facts as I understand them was that McCabe and O'Sullivan were held at gunpoint while the robbery was in progress, and McCabe tried to obtain his machine gun from the back seat of the car while there was a gun been pointed at him. You can either be a dead hero or an alive coward and unfortunately for McCabe and his family he choose to be the dead hero and place his life above a few thousand pounds. This doesnt excuse the robbery but McCabe did throw a gauntlet down to the men who had the gun pointed at him.

shampon

Fozzie Bear wrote: »

Nothing directly to this case no, but there again Sinn Fein and the deaths of Gardai are not happy bedfellows either ILA, I think you might privately agree.



The Garda in question here, yes I bet everyone would have no problem with being appalled and rightly so. If the same question were asked of Jerry McCabes murder and say Martin Ferris or other SF supporters opinion of it?

Well..... just go searching on boards for that and see what some people have to say. Apparently Jerry was at fault for being murdered.....

The fact that they say that the Army Council had know knowledge of the murder is a joke. I'm sure the ASU'S were told by the AC to got out and 'collect for the cause'. Saying the man was at fault for his murder is a joke, I wonder would the poster who made that statement feel the same way about the Loughall ambush, as in were they were ultimately responsible for laying down the gauntlet to the SAS...double standards. The Ra could never tolerate a bloody nose, they say they fought a war, yet when they were giving a good hiding they ran off like the shcool yard bully who was just put in their place, beery eyed Irish republicanism, makes you sick.

goldie fish

Fozzie Bear wrote: »

Nothing directly to this case no, but there again Sinn Fein and the deaths of Gardai are not happy bedfellows either ILA, I think you might privately agree.



The Garda in question here, yes I bet everyone would have no problem with being appalled and rightly so. If the same question were asked of Jerry McCabes murder and say Martin Ferris or other SF supporters opinion of it?

Well..... just go searching on boards for that and see what some people have to say. Apparently Jerry was at fault for being murdered.....

I would have great pleasure in stamping on the head of the person who first perpetrated that lie.

Sempai

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/our-young-gardai-deserve-protection-2529392.html

fair play to this parent!

MagicSean

If it had been a child would the judge have given the same instruction I wonder?

Profiler

k_mac wrote: »

If it had been a child would the judge have given the same instruction I wonder?

If it had been another criminal hit would the judge have given the same instruction I wonder?
If it had been a cat would the judge have given the same instruction I wonder?
If it had been a wall would the judge have given the same instruction I wonder?

However it wasn't any of the above, it was a serving member of An Garda Siochana that was hit. What happened was tragic and the not guilty decision heaps yet more hurt on his family, friends and colleagues when that is the last thing they need.

It's done now regardless of if we think the decision was good, bad, indifferent or a downright disgrace. The person responsible will see jail time for his guilty plea to another charge.

Hooch

Sempai wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/our-young-gardai-deserve-protection-2529392.html

fair play to this parent!

+1

Irish Independent wrote:

Tuesday February 08 2011
I'm the parent of a young garda. One of the proudest days of my life was to be present at his passing out in Templemore.

That day I saw innocent and committed happy young people embarking on a career that they knew carried with it a high element of danger.

Like many other parents of young gardai I worry when my son is on night duty and freeze when I hear on the news that a garda has been injured or killed.

I cannot imagine what the parents of Robbie McCallion are going through and pray that I don't find myself one day in the same position.

I found the words of the trial judge to the jury last Friday chilling: "Don't be carried away by the fact that he was a garda."

The facts are clear -- one a thug out on a robbing spree and the other a young man out to protect the citizens of this country.

Our young gardai are the backbone of law and order in this country and truly deserve to be protected by the powers that be.

We live in a country where the laws are very much on the side of the criminal, where the do-gooders who shout the loudest get listened to, where senior gardai and the judiciary are still political appointees.

In the meantime I, like many more parents, will continue to say a silent prayer while our sons and daughters are on duty protecting the people.

Gay Byrne was right in his observation that in this country you will see the law being upheld but not necessarily justice being done.

Name and address with editor

Irish Independent

ILA

All I can give is my view on the killing of Jerry McCabe and that is that it was wrong. There are various theories which have circulated over the years which suggest a personal animosity between Detective McCabe and the person who pulled the trigger. I don't know, and only the people involved will ever really know.

As I said in my post, I believe political violence to be of a different nature. Sadly things that happened are not as black and white as some would like them to appear, and there are grievances on both sides. Its something which needs to be discussed, and not fester in the way that some of the Civil War wrongdoings continue to this day.

Hatchets are going to have to be buried someday.

CaseyRyback

ILA wrote: »

Sadly things that happened are not as black and white as some would like them to appear

Jerry McCabe's murderers = cowardly murdering scum.

Fairly black and white to me.

ILA

CaseyRyback wrote: »

Jerry McCabe's murderers = cowardly murdering scum.

Fairly black and white to me.

That's your position on it, and my position on it. But they had their own reasons for doing what they did (even though it was wrong) so they might think differently.

My point was that you can't judge everything that happened in 40 odd years of conflict from the same context, as some seem to do.

goldie fish

ILA wrote: »

All I can give is my view on the killing of Jerry McCabe and that is that it was wrong. There are various theories which have circulated over the years which suggest a personal animosity between Detective McCabe and the person who pulled the trigger. I don't know, and only the people involved will ever really know.

I knew him. I served with him. I met him that morning. There was no animosity between the man who pulled the trigger and who he killed.
The firer is a psychopath, pure and simple.

You can quote this post next time he kills someone. And he will. Don't doubt it for a moment. The question is will he be caught as easily this time?

bitter_lemon

oh i was right. there are two threads on the same issue. why?

Overature

"manslaughter, stealing a car and burglaries" this guy should be shot

bitter_lemon

ILA wrote: »

All I can give is my view on the killing of Jerry McCabe and that is that it was wrong. There are various theories which have circulated over the years which suggest a personal animosity between Detective McCabe and the person who pulled the trigger. I don't know, and only the people involved will ever really know.

As I said in my post, I believe political violence to be of a different nature. Sadly things that happened are not as black and white as some would like them to appear, and there are grievances on both sides. Its something which needs to be discussed, and not fester in the way that some of the Civil War wrongdoings continue to this day.

Hatchets are going to have to be buried someday.

of course everything is not black and white! but shame on you for fouling this thread with your political motivations. don't taint gerry mccabe or robbie mccallion's cold blood murder with such conspiracy theories. get your own thread! shame on you :mad:

what does your user name stand for? you are a dirtbird too!

johnnyskeleton

CaseyRyback wrote: »

Another prime example of why trial by jury is no longer fit for purpose; people are dumb.

To be replaced by trial by media? Trial by popular opinion? Trial by boards.ie poll?

No thanks.

johnnyskeleton

Poccington wrote: »

I'm ****ing fuming at this decision. I can only imagine what a blow this is to morale in AGS at the moment...

By your logic, they must have been positively buoyed up by this decision:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/garda-acquitted-of-assaulting-criminal-477522.html

johnnyskeleton

AlekSmart wrote: »

I would be very interested to hear Judge O Hagan`s reasoning behind these words....

Before sending the jury out to consider their verdict, Judge John O’Hagan had warned the 12-person jury that they could not change their minds once a decision was made.

He also said that, while it was tragic, they should not be carried away by the fact that the victim was a garda.

He told the jury that in coming to a verdict they should be sure it was the right thing to do.


Judge O Hagan in this case appears to have decided,for his own as yet unexplained reasons,to somehow reduce the stature of an On-Duty Garda and that,more than any other aspect of his charge-to-jury requires urgent clarification.

He said a garda should be treated as any other person. What's wrong with that? Should gardai be put on a pedestal? Or possibly, was he trying to avoid the "garda got what he deserved" brigade?

CaseyRyback

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

He said a garda should be treated as any other person. What's wrong with that? Should gardai be put on a pedestal? Or possibly, was he trying to avoid the "garda got what he deserved" brigade?

Actually he said: "Don't be carried away by the fact that he was a garda."

Some might find that offensive or even derogatory.

And yes, in a fair and just system those who place themselves in harms way in the service of the public should be afforded an additional measure of protection by the law. However, as we all know, we seldom see justice in the courts. Instead what we see is the law.