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Off-duty PSNI officer shoots robber dead

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    #32
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Anything the PSNI does comes under mega scrutiny, and rightfully so.

    I read elsewhere that the man had a knife at the throat of a woman in the shop and the off duty cop shot him.
    If the above isnt true he probably should have let the shop be robbed tbh, robbing a shop isn't a capital offense.


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    #33
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    Funfair I know nothing of the case but I am 100% sure that if there was no knife or no robbery no one would have been shot.


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    #34
    tfitzgerald
    Registered Users Posts: 2,285 ✭✭✭tfitzgerald


    Zambia wrote: »
    Funfair I know nothing of the case but I am 100% sure that if there was no knife or no robbery no one would have been shot.

    Thank you


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    #35
    Funfair
    Registered Users Posts: 725 ✭✭✭Funfair


    Zambia wrote: »
    Funfair I know nothing of the case but I am 100% sure that if there was no knife or no robbery no one would have been shot.

    Zambia If off duty Police officers were not armed nobody would have being shot either :)


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    #36
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    Funfair wrote: »
    Zambia If off duty Police officers were not armed nobody would have being shot either :)
    The reason they are armed off duty is well known.


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    #37
    CaseyRyback
    Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭CaseyRyback


    No big surprise here.
    Man shot dead had extensive record
    Published on Sat Feb 05 11:28:14 GMT 2011

    THE man shot dead by an off-duty police officer on Thursday evening had a long history of offending, including robbery, it was revealed yesterday.

    Marc Alexander Ringland, 29, died following a suspected robbery bid at a garage on Belfast’s Albertbridge Road shortly after 7pm. Mr Ringland, who lived off the Castlereagh Road, was jailed for nine months at Belfast Crown Court in March last year but had been released on licence. His lengthy criminal record also included convictions for criminal damage, driving while disqualified, making a threat to kill, burglary, theft, and assault occasioning actual bodily harm. Nine years ago he pleaded guilty to a single count of burglary at Belfast Crown Court and was sentenced to three-and-a-half years’ detention in a young offenders centre.

    At a subsequent appeal hearing, where he hoped to have his sentence reduced, the judge described Mr Ringland as being involved in “reckless criminal conduct” and said: “For a man who has nine previous convictions for burglary, 25 for theft, two for handling, two for criminal damage and one for deception, let alone three recent convictions for robbery, a sentence of three-and-a-half years upon a charge of burglary cannot be regarded as excessive.”

    The family of Mr Ringland are “totally distressed by this tragedy”, their solicitor said yesterday.

    “They require some time to come to terms with the tragedy,” said solicitor
    Dennis Maloney, who appealed for the family’s privacy to be respected. He added: “The Police Ombudsman’s senior investigators were here this afternoon, we have just liaised with them and that investigation has just started. It will continue over the weekend and his remains will not be released until that process is complete.”

    Mr Maloney said he had been informed of the death of his 29-year-old client yesterday morning and described the shooting as “a total tragedy”.
    A 20-strong team of investigators from the Police Ombudsman’s office are looking into all aspects of the incident – including claims that the dead man had been armed with a knife when he was shot. Speaking yesterday, a spokesman for the Ombudsman’s office said: “The area was
    cordoned off to allow forensic examination to take place and a number of items have been retrieved for further analysis, which is ongoing today.

    “We have also identifed and spoken to a number of witnesses, and would like to appeal for anyone else who may know anything about what happened to contact
    us.”

    PSNI officers have access to, and are entitled to carry, their police-issue pistols for protection when off duty.

    East Belfast MLA Robin Newton said his son was a victim of a “violent hold-up” while working in the same shop several years ago.

    “This was a disturbing and troubling experience for him, which took some time to get over. However, this much more serious shooting fatality will be an even greater challenge to the mental well-being of the employees,” he said.

    East Belfast MP Naomi Long described the incident as a “traumatic situation for all of those involved” and also “very disturbing for people living and working” in the wider area.

    Police Ombudsman investigators have identifed and spoken to a number of witnesses but are appealing for anyone else with information to contact their freephone witness appeal line on 0800 032 7880.
    http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/local/man_shot_dead_had_extensive_record_1_2385809


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    #38
    Poccington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Poccington


    Funfair wrote: »
    Zambia If off duty Police officers were not armed nobody would have being shot either :)

    And if Republicans weren't targetting members of the PSNI, well then police officers wouldn't need to be armed while off duty. Also, if my aunty had balls she'd be my uncle.


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    #39
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    CaseyRyback wrote: »
    No big surprise here.
    http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/local/man_shot_dead_had_extensive_record_1_2385809
    The cop didnt know any of that at the time so its pretty irrelevant.


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    #40
    CaseyRyback
    Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭CaseyRyback


    Its highly relevant in so far as the follow up investigation is concerned.


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    #41
    Locust
    Registered Users Posts: 319 ✭✭Locust


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    ...robbing a shop isn't a capital offense.

    No its an indictable one. Someone can get serious jail time for robbing a shop as you are threatening someones life for i.e. the measely contents of a till...

    I remember back at the height of the troubles the story of three fellas in Belfast who robbed a betting shop and the came running out with guns in hands (albeit imitation guns but who's to know at the time)
    They bumped into a plain clothes undercover unit who was armed with a submachine gun. I think the member cut all three of them down outside the shop with the machine gun and if i remember correct i think they got a medal for it.


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    #42
    Endymion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 638 ✭✭✭Endymion


    Funfair wrote: »
    I young fella armed with a knife gets shot dead.. on face value it sounds like an over reaction by the Police officer.. but as we don't know the details we'll have to wait and see before hanging the guy
    Funfair wrote: »
    I get the drift... but most young fella's are just a bit stupid at the best of time and getting caught and arrested might smarten them up as opposed to killing them and wondering what might have being.

    Everyone deserves a second chance..

    Not when that second chance is at the risk of someone's life.
    Funfair wrote: »
    yeah I remember reading most Police forces train in disarming knife attackers.. here's a video in case PSNI members didn't get that training :)
    http://www.ehow.com/video_2368174_block-disarm-attacker-knife.html

    I didn't see the bit where you can block a knife to your throat or someone else's.
    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    The cop didnt know any of that at the time so its pretty irrelevant.

    It validates the police officers decision. Not because the criminal had a record, but because he had a record for violent assault. It demonstrates that he would have had no issue hurting another people in order to make good his escape.


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    #43
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    It validates the police officers decision. Not because the criminal had a record, but because he had a record for violent assault. It demonstrates that he would have had no issue hurting another people in order to make good his escape.

    Unless he knew it before he pulled the trigger it doesnt...


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    #44
    Holybejaysus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 415 ✭✭Holybejaysus


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Anything the PSNI does comes under mega scrutiny, and rightfully so.

    I read elsewhere that the man had a knife at the throat of a woman in the shop and the off duty cop shot him.
    If the above isnt true he probably should have let the shop be robbed tbh, robbing a shop isn't a capital offense.


    Are you for real? The cops should just let criminals robs shops if it's only a knife? Criminals would be out robbing every shop they could with a knife if there was an order not to shoot if they are only armed with a knife.

    I know a few old women who were working in a post office when it got robbed-it was a very traumatic experience for them; one ended up pretty much having a nervous breakdown.

    But it was only a knife...:rolleyes:


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    #45
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Holybejaysus wrote: »
    Are you for real? The cops should just let criminals robs shops if it's only a knife? Criminals would be out robbing every shop they could with a knife if there was an order not to shoot if they are only armed with a knife.

    I know a few old women who were working in a post office when it got robbed-it was a very traumatic experience for them; one ended up pretty much having a nervous breakdown.

    But it was only a knife...:rolleyes:
    So they should gun down people robbing shops then?


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    #46
    Endymion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 638 ✭✭✭Endymion


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Unless he knew it before he pulled the trigger it doesnt...

    He made a judgement that the man was violent and would harm others. Later information demonstrated that the judgement was accurate.


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    #47
    CaseyRyback
    Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭CaseyRyback


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    So they should gun down people robbing shops then?

    If the circumstances warrant it, that's a distinct possibility as this incident shows.


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    #48
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    CaseyRyback wrote: »
    If the circumstances warrant it, that's a distinct possibility as this incident shows.
    Thats what I said, "if the above isnt true"


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    #49
    Holybejaysus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 415 ✭✭Holybejaysus


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    So they should gun down people robbing shops then?

    Did I say that? There is a well defined 'rules of engagement' that dictates when, and when not, an officer can open fire. Usually there will be an verbal warning to drop the weapon-refusal to do so is correctly interpreted as a threat. If a suspect has been given an opportunity to drop a weapon and doesn't, one must assume their intents are hostile, and act accordingly.

    I think those rules are fine the way they are. Obviously every discharge of a firearm should be routinely investigated to eliminate the possibility of a bad apple gunning someone down illegally.

    But you are proposing the laws are amended to let knife carrying criminals rob-an insane logic.


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    #50
    CaseyRyback
    Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭CaseyRyback


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Thats what I said, "if the above isnt true"

    I don't follow.

    You what in the where now?


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    #51
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    His lengthy criminal record also included convictions for criminal damage, driving while disqualified, making a threat to kill, burglary, theft, and assault occasioning actual bodily harm. Nine years ago he pleaded guilty to a single count of burglary at Belfast Crown Court and was sentenced to three-and-a-half years’ detention in a young offenders centre.

    And someone said he deserved a second chance!..

    Good day on the ranges I say!.


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    #52
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Holybejaysus wrote: »
    Did I say that? There is a well defined 'rules of engagement' that dictates when, and when not, an officer can open fire. Usually there will be an verbal warning to drop the weapon-refusal to do so it correctly interpreted as a threat. If a suspect has been given an opportunity to drop a weapon and doesn't, one must assume their intents are hostile, and act accordingly.

    I think those rules are fine the way they are. Obviously every discharge of a firearm should be routinely investigated to eliminate the possibility of a bad apple gunning someone down illegally.

    But you are proposing the laws are amended to let knife carrying criminals rob-an insane logic.
    Thats no what I am saying at all, shooting someone must be a last resort, hopefully it was in this case.


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    #53
    CaseyRyback
    Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭CaseyRyback


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    hopefully it was in this case.

    Why would there even be any doubt about that until such time as there is some evidence that it wasn't the last resort?


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    #54
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    CaseyRyback wrote: »
    Why would there even be any doubt about that until such time as there is some evidence that it wasn't the last resort?
    PSNIs history, people will automatically think the worst.


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    #55
    goldie fish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    The cop didnt know any of that at the time so its pretty irrelevant.

    As a cop, I'd say he had a fair idea.


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    #56
    funkey_monkey
    Registered Users Posts: 8,116 ✭✭✭funkey_monkey


    As soon as you cross the threshold of someone's property - business or residence - in order to commit a crime (arrmed or otherwise) you are willingly waiving your rights.

    It's about time people here stopped being so soft. The cop nailed a criminal in action armed with a knife. Tough luck to the guy - that's the risk he takes.

    I'm not saying that everyone who is a crook should be killed, but if they do not surrender readily to an armed policeman then no one can really complain if this happens.


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    #57
    shampon
    Registered Users Posts: 580 ✭✭✭shampon


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    PSNIs history, people will automatically think the worst.

    Yeah, The PSNI has had a rough time in the ten years of it's existence. Strange how certain people always run to the cover of the RUC in any situation where force is used. For Christ sake use of force can be legit...the past has nothing to do with this...


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    #58
    Kat1170
    Registered Users Posts: 3,603 ✭✭✭Kat1170


    Funfair wrote: »
    Zambia If off duty Police officers were not armed nobody would have being shot either :)

    If he didn't rob the shop at knifepoint he wouldn't have been. Got his just deserts in my opinion.


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    #59
    shampon
    Registered Users Posts: 580 ✭✭✭shampon


    Kat1170 wrote: »
    If he didn't rob the shop at knifepoint he wouldn't have been. Got his just deserts in my opinion.

    Main thing is a life is gone and regardless of his past...it was an idiotic waste.


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    #60
    ScouseMouse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,070 ✭✭✭ScouseMouse


    CaseyRyback wrote: »
    No big surprise here.
    http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/local/man_shot_dead_had_extensive_record_1_2385809
    Funfair wrote: »
    I young fella armed with a knife gets shot dead.. on face value it sounds like an over reaction by the Police officer.. but as we don't know the details we'll have to wait and see before hanging the guy
    shampon wrote: »
    Main thing is a life is gone and regardless of his past...it was an idiotic waste.

    A guy with with a long record (career criminal?) pulls a knife on innocent people and an armed cop happens to come upon it.

    If the crook was holding a knife to someone, or ran at the cop, and he was shot, then tough. As a lot of people have said here, dont arm yourself unless you are willing to take the consequences.

    If it turns out the cop was attempting to save an innocent persons life, or his own, then TOUGH, no pity for the thug.

    If it turns out the poor robber was shot in the back while walking away (yeah right!), then the policeman has a case to answer.

    Either way, the thug/robber/convicted criminal armed himself with a weapon - and lost.

    Dont feel a bit sorry for him.


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    #61
    Funfair
    Registered Users Posts: 725 ✭✭✭Funfair


    goldie fish wrote: »
    As a cop, I'd say he had a fair idea.

    Yep as a Civilan I'd also say your spot on there.


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