Off-duty PSNI officer shoots robber dead

CaseyRyback

Knife man shot dead by off-duty Officer



THE Police Ombudsman is investigating the fatal shooting of a man by an off-duty police officer during a suspected robbery in east Belfast. The man who died was shot shortly after 7pm by a police officer at a garage on the Albertbridge Road, said the Police Ombudsman.

“Initial inquiries suggest that an off-duty officer discharged his firearm,” a police spokesman said. The circumstances of the incident, which was reported to police as a robbery at 7.05pm, are still being established, he added. Nobody else was injured. There were reports that the man shot dead, believed to be in his 20s, was armed with a knife. Investigators from the Police Ombudsman’s office were quickly at the scene last night. The watchdog automatically investigates every time a PSNI officer discharges a weapon.

Councillor Jim Rodgers, chairman of the East Belfast District Policing Partnership, said there had been a spate of robberies in the area in recent times.

“My thoughts are with the family of this man who has lost his life. There have been a spate of robberies in east Belfast in the last few weeks with large amounts of money being taken. “Many businesses are closing at this time and some of those concerned have been robbed several times.”

The councillor said he had met with senior police offcers in relation to the ongoing robberies.

Sinn Fein assembly member Alex Maskey, who sits on the Policing Board, said he was in contact with police over the shooting. He added: “This is obviously an issue of the utmost seriousness and one which must be investigated fully by the Police Ombudsman’s office.”

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/local/man_is_shot_dead_by_off_duty_officer_1_2379654

480905

The officer took the action they deemed necessary I presume. Should be awarded a medal instead of the Vultures circling picking holes in their actions..

Manic Moran

I don't see anything wrong with a fair investigation being routine after shooting someone.

NTM

Manic Moran

Manic Moran wrote: »

I don't see anything wrong with a fair investigation being routine after shooting someone.

NTM

Nobody has a problem with that. The problem is people are already condemning the officer on a local basis and on the web.

CaseyRyback

Manic Moran wrote: »

I don't see anything wrong with a fair investigation being routine after shooting someone.

NTM

In a country with tight gun control one would expect nothing less where a loss of life has resulted from the actions of a police officer. However incidents such as this are often use as a vehicle by those with an anti-police/establishment agenda and often the Constable's welfare is overlooked.

Funfair

Manic Moran wrote: »

NTM

what's NTM

Funfair

I young fella armed with a knife gets shot dead.. on face value it sounds like an over reaction by the Police officer.. but as we don't know the details we'll have to wait and see before hanging the guy

arybvtcw0eolkf

Funfair wrote: »

I young fella armed with a knife gets shot dead..

Tough, don't arm yourself with a knife and you won't get shot seem's to be the lesson here.. Seem's fair.

Must be awful for the lads loved one's and the policeman involved.

More armed robber's should be shot.

Funfair

Arturo Eager Self-esteem wrote: »

Tough, don't arm yourself with a knife and you won't get shot seem's to be the lesson here.. Seem's fair.

Must be awful for the lads loved one's and the policeman involved.

More armed robber's should be shot.

I get the drift... but most young fella's are just a bit stupid at the best of time and getting caught and arrested might smarten them up as opposed to killing them and wondering what might have being.

Everyone deserves a second chance..

meathstevie

Funfair wrote: »

I get the drift... but most young fella's are just a bit stupid at the best of time and getting caught and arrested might smarten them up as opposed to killing them and wondering what might have being.

Everyone deserves a second chance..

Have you ever thought about how quick someone can stab you ?

Not wishing to comment on this particular case as it's still under investigation but in general I'd argue the point that an armed robber threatening someone with a knife is showing clear intention and willingness to use unlawful lethal violence.

Given that observation I honestly can't see anything wrong with a police officer countering such a threath of unlawful lethal violence with the lawful means at his/her disposal.

It goes without saying that it is very unfortunate that such action can result in death but when faced with a threath of lethal violence directed at oneself or a member of the public a police officer unfortunately hasn't got much of a choice.

Funfair

meathstevie wrote: »

Have you ever thought about how quick someone can stab you ?

Not wishing to comment on this particular case as it's still under investigation but in general I'd argue the point that an armed robber threatening someone with a knife is showing clear intention and willingness to use unlawful lethal violence.

Given that observation I honestly can't see anything wrong with a police officer countering such a threath of unlawful lethal violence with the lawful means at his/her disposal.

It goes without saying that it is very unfortunate that such action can result in death but when faced with a threath of lethal violence directed at oneself or a member of the public a police officer unfortunately hasn't got much of a choice.

Not arguing with you some valid points there.. but the same crime would more likely then not have ended with an arrest if it happened south of the border as an Off Duty Guard wouldn't have being carrying a gun..

Of course you could say the Guard might have done nothing or the crime might have ended in a murder with a knife but as I said more then likely an arrest.

CaseyRyback

Funfair wrote: »

Of course you could say the Guard might have done nothing or the crime might have ended in a murder with a knife but as I said more then likely an arrest.

Why 'more than likely'?

UTV reported that the suspect had a knife to a member of the public's throat. As a result he got shot.

The moral would appear to be don't bring a knife to a gunfight.

Tags

I recall seeing something online relating to how fast someone armed with just a blade can be:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

goldie fish

Funfair wrote: »

what's NTM

Not the momma

Funfair

Tags wrote: »

I recall seeing something online relating to how fast someone armed with just a blade can be:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

yeah I remember reading most Police forces train in disarming knife attackers.. here's a video in case PSNI members didn't get that training
http://www.ehow.com/video_2368174_block-disarm-attacker-knife.html

CaseyRyback

Funfair wrote: »

yeah I remember reading most Police forces train in disarming knife attackers.. here's a video in case PSNI members didn't get that training

I'm sure they'll appreciate your contribution.

Locust

I think it serves as a reminder of just how SERIOUS it is to produce a knife/engage in knife crime. I think we forget sometimes, as knives are found so often. In essence you are producing a lethal weapon. Once you wield a knife the risk factors increase for everyone and you're playing big boys rules now. Whats the old adage - live by the sword die by the sword?

Its been said already we don't know the in's and out's but i'd suspect a police officer/Garda would be well covered using lethal force against someone who produced and/or threatened to use a knife on someone.

Poccington

Why couldn't he just shoot the knife out of his hand?

Funfair

Funfair wrote: »

yeah I remember reading most Police forces train in disarming knife attackers.. here's a video in case PSNI members didn't get that training
http://www.ehow.com/video_2368174_block-disarm-attacker-knife.html

You seem very good and knowledgeable in finding things on the net. Go find how many people have been stabbed to death or seriously injured over the last few years and then decide whether or not a gun is not a fair match. Failing that, keep your uninformed views to yourself or AH.

meathstevie

All very nice if you're Jackie Chan or Bruce Lee or some hard man in a gym. Unfortunately policing doesn't happen on film sets or in the controlled environment of a gym with a rubber knife....

Zambia

Funfair wrote: »

yeah I remember reading most Police forces train in disarming knife attackers..[/URL]

Yes they do standard practice is to shoot them till they drop the knife. Disarms them pretty damn quick.

Eru

Funfair wrote: »

I young fella armed with a knife gets shot dead.. on face value it sounds like an over reaction by the Police officer

Logically then you think a police officer should be obliged to produce a knife of equal length and sharpness then engage in unarmed combat to the death?

Hmmm, did the robber use equal force to his victim I wonder or perhaps his poor victim was completely unarmed and didnt think a knife was really in the spirit if fair play either. Come to think of it, the next time I see someone speeding and drunk driving I shall immediately open a can of Dutch gold and start the engine......

Now, Im off to start a new game of cowboys and indians or possible start another round of 'shoot the 2 inch wide wrist thats holding the knife' as you seem convinced so many police do.

Poccington

Eru wrote: »

Logically then you think a police officer should be obliged to produce a knife of equal length and sharpness then engage in unarmed combat to the death?

All police officers should be armed with swords.

Locust

Funfair wrote: »

Of course you could say the Guard might have done nothing or the crime might have ended in a murder with a knife but as I said more then likely an arrest.

He could have, just for arguements sake, just as easily bumped into plain clothes armed gardai south of the border who'd have done the same thing. Everyone deserves a second chance - but they cripple their chances when they wield a knife towards police.

Holybejaysus

What is it about threads like this that attract the Walter Mitty bridage?

'He should have disarmed him'......... :rolleyes:


Tell you what, hang around outside the local nightclub and try it when the local gurriers are going at it with bottles and knives.

Let us know how you get on, won't you?

sdanseo

No sympathy at all. Allowing for a little speculation, it's probably fair to say he was armed with a knife and given plenty warning to drop it. If you're stupid enough not to, then by god you deserve everything you get

Moral of the story - don't rob a shop = don't get shot.

Shield

Just like my learned colleague meathstevie, I too cannot comment on this case for obvious reasons, but I can say this:

When I went through Garnerville, the PSP trainers had a rubber knife and a rubber Glock as props. The Glock was given to a Student Officer to holster, and the trainer had the knife. The trainer asked the S/O how far back he wanted him to step before he felt comfortable that he could draw the Glock in time to avoid being stabbed.

Of course, the S/O said "Keep going... more... more... more...". The trainer ended up around 40 feet away judging by the markers on the floor. Trainer: "Are you sure you can draw that quicker that I can get to you?" S/O: "Yeah, fairly sure".

With that, the trainer lets out the loudest roar and sprints straight at the S/O still screaming, knife in the air. The roar caught us all off guard. The S/O panicked, fumbled the holster button and was 'stabbed' before he could come up on aim... from 40 feet away.

I learned a valuable lesson that day.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Funfair wrote: »

I get the drift... but most young fella's are just a bit stupid at the best of time and getting caught and arrested might smarten them up as opposed to killing them and wondering what might have being.

Everyone deserves a second chance..

"Drop the knife" .. (second chance) "Drop the knife or I'll shoot" - squeez the trigger.... Cures stupidity in armed robber's too!.

shampon

I see the overtly liberal, tree hugger crusties are out in force. Ah for the world to be so black and white.

tfitzgerald

I have to say I side with the police officer here if there had been no knife /robbery there would have been no shooting I hope it does not affect the psni member in any way

Funfair

tfitzgerald wrote: »

I have to say I side with the police officer here if there had been no knife /robbery there would have been no shooting I hope it does not affect the psni member in any way

You can say that without knowing anything of the case? Also if knowbody broke any law we wouldn't need any Police officers.. unfortunatley this is not the world we live in

Wolfe Tone

Anything the PSNI does comes under mega scrutiny, and rightfully so.

I read elsewhere that the man had a knife at the throat of a woman in the shop and the off duty cop shot him.
If the above isnt true he probably should have let the shop be robbed tbh, robbing a shop isn't a capital offense.

Zambia

Funfair I know nothing of the case but I am 100% sure that if there was no knife or no robbery no one would have been shot.

tfitzgerald

Zambia wrote: »

Funfair I know nothing of the case but I am 100% sure that if there was no knife or no robbery no one would have been shot.

Thank you

Funfair

Zambia wrote: »

Funfair I know nothing of the case but I am 100% sure that if there was no knife or no robbery no one would have been shot.

Zambia If off duty Police officers were not armed nobody would have being shot either

Zambia

Funfair wrote: »

Zambia If off duty Police officers were not armed nobody would have being shot either

The reason they are armed off duty is well known.

CaseyRyback

No big surprise here.

Man shot dead had extensive record
Published on Sat Feb 05 11:28:14 GMT 2011

THE man shot dead by an off-duty police officer on Thursday evening had a long history of offending, including robbery, it was revealed yesterday.

Marc Alexander Ringland, 29, died following a suspected robbery bid at a garage on Belfast’s Albertbridge Road shortly after 7pm. Mr Ringland, who lived off the Castlereagh Road, was jailed for nine months at Belfast Crown Court in March last year but had been released on licence. His lengthy criminal record also included convictions for criminal damage, driving while disqualified, making a threat to kill, burglary, theft, and assault occasioning actual bodily harm. Nine years ago he pleaded guilty to a single count of burglary at Belfast Crown Court and was sentenced to three-and-a-half years’ detention in a young offenders centre.

At a subsequent appeal hearing, where he hoped to have his sentence reduced, the judge described Mr Ringland as being involved in “reckless criminal conduct” and said: “For a man who has nine previous convictions for burglary, 25 for theft, two for handling, two for criminal damage and one for deception, let alone three recent convictions for robbery, a sentence of three-and-a-half years upon a charge of burglary cannot be regarded as excessive.”

The family of Mr Ringland are “totally distressed by this tragedy”, their solicitor said yesterday.

“They require some time to come to terms with the tragedy,” said solicitor
Dennis Maloney, who appealed for the family’s privacy to be respected. He added: “The Police Ombudsman’s senior investigators were here this afternoon, we have just liaised with them and that investigation has just started. It will continue over the weekend and his remains will not be released until that process is complete.”

Mr Maloney said he had been informed of the death of his 29-year-old client yesterday morning and described the shooting as “a total tragedy”.
A 20-strong team of investigators from the Police Ombudsman’s office are looking into all aspects of the incident – including claims that the dead man had been armed with a knife when he was shot. Speaking yesterday, a spokesman for the Ombudsman’s office said: “The area was
cordoned off to allow forensic examination to take place and a number of items have been retrieved for further analysis, which is ongoing today.

“We have also identifed and spoken to a number of witnesses, and would like to appeal for anyone else who may know anything about what happened to contact
us.”

PSNI officers have access to, and are entitled to carry, their police-issue pistols for protection when off duty.

East Belfast MLA Robin Newton said his son was a victim of a “violent hold-up” while working in the same shop several years ago.

“This was a disturbing and troubling experience for him, which took some time to get over. However, this much more serious shooting fatality will be an even greater challenge to the mental well-being of the employees,” he said.

East Belfast MP Naomi Long described the incident as a “traumatic situation for all of those involved” and also “very disturbing for people living and working” in the wider area.

Police Ombudsman investigators have identifed and spoken to a number of witnesses but are appealing for anyone else with information to contact their freephone witness appeal line on 0800 032 7880.

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/local/man_shot_dead_had_extensive_record_1_2385809

Poccington

Funfair wrote: »

Zambia If off duty Police officers were not armed nobody would have being shot either

And if Republicans weren't targetting members of the PSNI, well then police officers wouldn't need to be armed while off duty. Also, if my aunty had balls she'd be my uncle.

Wolfe Tone

CaseyRyback wrote: »

No big surprise here.
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/local/man_shot_dead_had_extensive_record_1_2385809

The cop didnt know any of that at the time so its pretty irrelevant.

CaseyRyback

Its highly relevant in so far as the follow up investigation is concerned.

Locust

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

...robbing a shop isn't a capital offense.

No its an indictable one. Someone can get serious jail time for robbing a shop as you are threatening someones life for i.e. the measely contents of a till...

I remember back at the height of the troubles the story of three fellas in Belfast who robbed a betting shop and the came running out with guns in hands (albeit imitation guns but who's to know at the time)
They bumped into a plain clothes undercover unit who was armed with a submachine gun. I think the member cut all three of them down outside the shop with the machine gun and if i remember correct i think they got a medal for it.

Endymion

Funfair wrote: »

I young fella armed with a knife gets shot dead.. on face value it sounds like an over reaction by the Police officer.. but as we don't know the details we'll have to wait and see before hanging the guy

Funfair wrote: »

I get the drift... but most young fella's are just a bit stupid at the best of time and getting caught and arrested might smarten them up as opposed to killing them and wondering what might have being.

Everyone deserves a second chance..

Not when that second chance is at the risk of someone's life.

Funfair wrote: »

yeah I remember reading most Police forces train in disarming knife attackers.. here's a video in case PSNI members didn't get that training
http://www.ehow.com/video_2368174_block-disarm-attacker-knife.html

I didn't see the bit where you can block a knife to your throat or someone else's.

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

The cop didnt know any of that at the time so its pretty irrelevant.

It validates the police officers decision. Not because the criminal had a record, but because he had a record for violent assault. It demonstrates that he would have had no issue hurting another people in order to make good his escape.

Wolfe Tone

It validates the police officers decision. Not because the criminal had a record, but because he had a record for violent assault. It demonstrates that he would have had no issue hurting another people in order to make good his escape.

Unless he knew it before he pulled the trigger it doesnt...

Holybejaysus

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Anything the PSNI does comes under mega scrutiny, and rightfully so.

I read elsewhere that the man had a knife at the throat of a woman in the shop and the off duty cop shot him.
If the above isnt true he probably should have let the shop be robbed tbh, robbing a shop isn't a capital offense.

Are you for real? The cops should just let criminals robs shops if it's only a knife? Criminals would be out robbing every shop they could with a knife if there was an order not to shoot if they are only armed with a knife.

I know a few old women who were working in a post office when it got robbed-it was a very traumatic experience for them; one ended up pretty much having a nervous breakdown.

But it was only a knife...:rolleyes:

Wolfe Tone

Holybejaysus wrote: »

Are you for real? The cops should just let criminals robs shops if it's only a knife? Criminals would be out robbing every shop they could with a knife if there was an order not to shoot if they are only armed with a knife.

I know a few old women who were working in a post office when it got robbed-it was a very traumatic experience for them; one ended up pretty much having a nervous breakdown.

But it was only a knife...:rolleyes:

So they should gun down people robbing shops then?

Endymion

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Unless he knew it before he pulled the trigger it doesnt...

He made a judgement that the man was violent and would harm others. Later information demonstrated that the judgement was accurate.

CaseyRyback

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

So they should gun down people robbing shops then?

If the circumstances warrant it, that's a distinct possibility as this incident shows.

Wolfe Tone

CaseyRyback wrote: »

If the circumstances warrant it, that's a distinct possibility as this incident shows.

Thats what I said, "if the above isnt true"

Holybejaysus

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

So they should gun down people robbing shops then?

Did I say that? There is a well defined 'rules of engagement' that dictates when, and when not, an officer can open fire. Usually there will be an verbal warning to drop the weapon-refusal to do so is correctly interpreted as a threat. If a suspect has been given an opportunity to drop a weapon and doesn't, one must assume their intents are hostile, and act accordingly.

I think those rules are fine the way they are. Obviously every discharge of a firearm should be routinely investigated to eliminate the possibility of a bad apple gunning someone down illegally.

But you are proposing the laws are amended to let knife carrying criminals rob-an insane logic.

CaseyRyback

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Thats what I said, "if the above isnt true"

I don't follow.

You what in the where now?

arybvtcw0eolkf

His lengthy criminal record also included convictions for criminal damage, driving while disqualified, making a threat to kill, burglary, theft, and assault occasioning actual bodily harm. Nine years ago he pleaded guilty to a single count of burglary at Belfast Crown Court and was sentenced to three-and-a-half years’ detention in a young offenders centre.

And someone said he deserved a second chance!..

Good day on the ranges I say!.