How to Use A Roundabout

zynaps

J_R wrote: »

The UK Highway code is slighty clearer

UK Highway Code

The UK roundabout rules indeed seem both more concise and clearer on this very issue.

Bigcheeze

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

The exit is to the right, so you take the right lane.

As per the ROTR it is to the right of 'straight ahead'

After describing how to take the straight ahead, next paragraph
The UK Highway code is slighty clearer

UK Highway Code

Driving instructors usually explain how to determine if the exit is "to the Right" by using the clock face. This is usually understood by most people.

Only once did I have a pupil who misunderstood, when I only used the "Before twelve, after twelve" explanation method. Asked her if she understood and she said .
Yes, soo interesting, I never knew that there was different rules for before and after midnight. (But she was a blonde )

However I now also use gestures, drawings and on the drawings I mark the exits A, B, C.

Just for boards.ie have made a video. Unfortunately it was going to rain so little dark and rushed

Roundabout 2nd exit

http://goo.gl/maps/U0q0

Pity you weren't here at the start of the thread and saved us 41 pages :pac:

Ev84

Bigcheeze wrote: »

Pity you weren't here at the start of the thread and saved us 41 pages :pac:

^^^LOL^^^ True that.

This roundabout is in wales too isn't it? Think i read an earlier post to that affect so UK road rules would make more sense here...

J_R

zynaps wrote: »

The UK roundabout rules indeed seem both more concise and clearer on this very issue.

Hi,

They have more practice. They fairly regularly publish new editions/revisions to their rules.

Each time they have tried slightly different explanations in describing how to negotiate roundabouts. (Note: the rules do not change, neither there or in Ireland - just the explanations)

For example, edition before the present one they used a diagram of a five exit roundabout.

This time, back to four. They are obviously trying to keep the basic explanation as simple as possible. Think they have succeeded this time.

Voodoomelon

So, to conclude...

Bigcheeze

I was driving on the ring road around Kilkenny yesterday which has several roundabouts in the standard 4 exit format. I noticed that they all had road markings, instructing drivers to use both lanes if going "straight ahead" / "second exit". To me this makes sense and should be the rule. It's just dumb and inefficient to require two thirds of the traffic to use the left lane. As posted previously this is the way I drive anyway even if the road markings don't exist.

sparx001

rex-x wrote: »

you are badly wrong there http://www.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://www.sharoma.com/img/roundabout.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sharoma.com/roundabout.htm&usg=__a5ealsG3t6H33KuZLWv3Nan7GOY=&h=314&w=434&sz=28&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=JZI1_correV2oM:&tbnh=147&tbnw=187&ei=IQxFTbiYKZKKhQfDrKzBAQ&prev=/images%3Fq%3Droundabouts%2Bcorrect%2Buse%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26biw%3D1440%26bih%3D749%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=131&vpy=85&dur=41&hovh=191&hovw=264&tx=148&ty=95&oei=IQxFTbiYKZKKhQfDrKzBAQ&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=26&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0 but case here is that its past straight on which in my eyes makes no difference as if you take the right lane the left is empty as useless?

I agree, this is of rules of the road site and says any exit later than straight ahead you should be in the right lane. So as stated earlier 12'Oclock does count.

Taking any later exits

• Signal right and approach in the right-hand lane.
• Keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout.
• Check your mirrors, signal left and proceed to your exit when it is safe to do so.
• Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want to take.

Leaving by a later exit
Stay in the right-hand lane, indicate right on your approach and maintain this signal until you have passed the exit before the one you intend to take. Then change to the "left" turn indicator.

Iwannahurl

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

The exit is to the right, so you take the right lane.

As per the ROTR it is to the right of 'straight ahead'

Driving instructors usually explain how to determine if the exit is "to the Right" by using the clock face. This is usually understood by most people.

However I now also use gestures, drawings and on the drawings I mark the exits A, B, C.

1. If the RoTR is sufficient on its own, why do you feel the need to augment it?

2. When did the 12 o'clock reference start to appear in driving instruction?

Divorce Referendum

Bigcheeze wrote: »

I was driving on the ring road around Kilkenny yesterday which has several roundabouts in the standard 4 exit format. I noticed that they all had road markings, instructing drivers to use both lanes if going "straight ahead" / "second exit". To me this makes sense and should be the rule. It's just dumb and inefficient to require two thirds of the traffic to use the left lane. As posted previously this is the way I drive anyway even if the road markings don't exist.

So if there is only one lane exiting on the second exit and you take the right lane you will have to change lanes to exit. It doesnt help speed up or make the roundabout any safer because you will have to merge with the traffic in the left lane because there is only one lane exiting. In the example you mentioned with the ring road in kilkenny if obviously makes sense to use both lanes because there is two lanes exiting at the second exit.

Bigcheeze

Divorce Referendum wrote: »

So if there is only one lane exiting on the second exit and you take the right lane you will have to change lanes to exit. It doesnt help speed up or make the roundabout any safer because you will have to merge with the traffic in the left lane because there is only one lane exiting. In the example you mentioned with the ring road in kilkenny if obviously makes sense to use both lanes because there is two lanes exiting at the second exit.

1. Much of the traffic in the left lane will be taking the first exit so it is quite likely that there won't be a constant stream of traffic in the left lane taking the second exit.

2. Merging of lanes is a technique that we will use everyday while driving, without incident. It requires judgment, awareness and consideration for other road users, all essential driving skills.

3. Most exits aren't designed like you describe. Many of the roundabouts in KK yesterday merged in to one lane but the merge was about 50 metres after the roundabout allowing easier merging

Divorce Referendum

Bigcheeze wrote: »

1. Much of the traffic in the left lane will be taking the first exit so it is quite likely that there won't be a constant stream of traffic in the left lane taking the second exit.

Is that the case on every roundabout? Definitely not.

Bigcheeze wrote: »

2. Merging of lanes is a technique that we will use everyday while driving, without incident. It requires judgment, awareness and consideration for other road users, all essential driving skills.

It is but im not sure why you would want to have to merge unnecessarily. Stay in the left lane and you wont have to. Unless you want to skip traffic like most.:rolleyes:

Bigcheeze wrote: »

3. Most exits aren't designed like you describe. Many of the roundabouts in KK yesterday merged in to one lane but the merge was about 50 metres after the roundabout allowing easier merging

But that is still a two lane exit at the second exit. It is easier to merge with time to merge on straight stretch of road. On the roundabout you would have to merge instantly at the point of exit.

If its a standard one lane exiting at the second exit would you still use the right lane?

J_R

Iwannahurl wrote: »

1. If the RoTR is sufficient on its own, why do you feel the need to augment it?

2. When did the 12 o'clock reference start to appear in driving instruction?

1. Assuming all the people who voted in the poll had read the RoTR, then 184 did not find that it explained it clearly enough.

2. Have not a clue, but would assume it was when the first intelligent instructor was seeking an easy and clear method to explain the locations of the exits in a manner that would be clearly and easily understood.

Bigcheeze

Divorce Referendum wrote: »

Is that the case on every roundabout? Definitely not.



It is but im not sure why you would want to have to merge unnecessarily. Stay in the left lane and you wont have to. Unless you want to skip traffic like most.:rolleyes:



But that is still a two lane exit at the second exit. It is easier to merge with time to merge on straight stretch of road. On the roundabout you would have to merge instantly at the point of exit.

If its a standard one lane exiting at the second exit would you still use the right lane?

Merging may be difficult for you but I find it easy.

Using both lanes is a more efficient way to move traffic.

zynaps

Bigcheeze wrote: »

3. Most exits aren't designed like you describe. Many of the roundabouts in KK yesterday merged in to one lane but the merge was about 50 metres after the roundabout allowing easier merging

How can you know whether the roundabout exits onto one lane or two, until you've already done it? Is it posted on the signage?

J_R

Bigcheeze wrote: »

I was driving on the ring road around Kilkenny yesterday which has several roundabouts in the standard 4 exit format. I noticed that they all had road markings, instructing drivers to use both lanes if going "straight ahead" / "second exit". To me this makes sense and should be the rule. It's just dumb and inefficient to require two thirds of the traffic to use the left lane. As posted previously this is the way I drive anyway even if the road markings don't exist.

Hi,

When going straight ahead, with two lanes, there is no problem whatsoever with using the inside lane on a roundabout, provided that the outer lane is full of traffic.

However, if the outer lane is clear, then as per the RoTR it should not be used. It is more or less the same as driving in the overtaking lane on a dual carriageway except because of the curves can be more dangerous if someone undertakes.

Basic rules is that you stay left, reason: your left hand side is safe, safe from idiots who try and undertake.

Divorce Referendum

Bigcheeze wrote: »

Merging may be difficult for you but I find it easy.

Using both lanes is a more efficient way to move traffic.

No merging if fine for me, but I wouldnt use a lane just cause i thought it was a waste not to use it. Its great that you have just admitted that you merge unnecessarily though. Its no advantage to you or any other driver to use the right lane when there is a single lane exiting.

Divorce Referendum

zynaps wrote: »

How can you know whether the roundabout exits onto one lane or two, until you've already done it? Is it posted on the signage?

It doesnt matter to him he just uses the right lane if he sees fit.

J_R

zynaps wrote: »

How can you know whether the roundabout exits onto one lane or two, until you've already done it? Is it posted on the signage?

Hi,

very good point. I have yet to see a sign warning motorists that there is only one lane on certain exits, even though it has two in.

Bigcheeze

zynaps wrote: »

How can you know whether the roundabout exits onto one lane or two, until you've already done it? Is it posted on the signage?

I wouldn't but that's the same as any unfamiliar situation, it's not difficult to deal with it.

Bigcheeze

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

When going straight ahead, with two lanes, there is no problem whatsoever with using the inside lane on a roundabout, provided that the outer lane is full of traffic.

However, if the outer lane is clear, then as per the RoTR it should not be used. It is more or less the same as driving in the overtaking lane on a dual carriageway except because of the curves can be more dangerous if someone undertakes.

Basic rules is that you stay left, reason: your left hand side is safe, safe from idiots who try and undertake.

I agree. If the left lane is clear, that's where you'll find me.

Bigcheeze

Divorce Referendum wrote: »

No merging if fine for me, but I wouldnt use a lane just cause i thought it was a waste not to use it. Its great that you have just admitted that you merge unnecessarily though. Its no advantage to you or any other driver to use the right lane when there is a single lane exiting.

It's an advantage to everyone as like I said previously, much of the traffic in the left lane will be turning left, so using both lanes will achieve higher traffic throughput on the roundabout.

Divorce Referendum

Bigcheeze wrote: »

It's an advantage to everyone as like I said previously, much of the traffic in the left lane will be turning left, so using both lanes will achieve higher traffic throughput on the roundabout.

Again thats just you saying that. Is it the case on every roundabout that much(as you put it) of the traffic will be turning left? No! There will be just as much traffic if not more going to the second exit on alot of roundabouts. You saying you have no problem merging doesnt mean that everyone else is up to your standard of driving. As another poster suggested left is safe to protect you from idiots.

vibe666

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

very good point. I have yet to see a sign warning motorists that there is only one lane on certain exits, even though it has two in.

*normally* (assuming whoever makes the signs has had the forethought to actually do it) where there is a mixture of primary & secondary exits the smaller single lane exits will be indicated on the roundabout diagram as a thinner line.

you can see it pretty clearly in the signage approaching the OP's example roundabout here http://goo.gl/5AYCu

someone asked how long the clock method has been taught? i was taught it 17 years ago by my driving instructor in the UK, but i'm not sure in Ireland. going by what people have said on the thread previously, it's anything from at least as long to not at all, depending on who you ask.

the clock method is just a learning tool to help people understand the correct way to navigate roundabouts, it's not carved in stone its just a simple way for (some) people to remember the correct way of doing it, but it seems to be pot luck whether or not it was taught to you if you learnt to drive here, but then again the whole "learning to drive" thing in ireland appears to have been pot luck from start to finish until very recently.

if you want to see a funny look on someone's face, find someone who isn't irish and tell them that until very recently, a learner driver here could drive to their own driving test unaccompanied, fail their test and then drive home again on their own.

my instructor wouldn't even let me drive to or from the test centre after I passed my driving test, never mind if i'd failed. :eek:

Iwannahurl

J_R wrote: »

1. Assuming all the people who voted in the poll had read the RoTR, then 184 did not find that it explained it clearly enough.

2. Have not a clue, but would assume it was when the first intelligent instructor was seeking an easy and clear method to explain the locations of the exits in a manner that would be clearly and easily understood.

I'm enquiring about driving instruction specifically.

If the RoTR is sufficient on its own, why do you need to add a reference to 12 o'clock when teaching new drivers?

Why is there a need for an "easy and clear method to explain the locations of the exits in a manner that would be clearly and easily understood" if the RoTR guidelines on roundabouts are clearly and easily understood?



EDIT: Sorry, I misread your reply #1 first time around. Point taken. I'll let my questions above stand though, for rhetorical reasons.

vibe666

Divorce Referendum wrote: »

Again thats just you saying that. Is it the case on every roundabout that much(as you put it) of the traffic will be turning left? No! There will be just as much traffic if not more going to the second exit on alot of roundabouts. You saying you have no problem merging doesnt mean that everyone else is up to your standard of driving. As another poster suggested left is safe to protect you from idiots.

don't forget it's not all roundabouts anyway, it's "unless the road markings/signage dictates otherwise".

of course, not all roundabouts are created equal and there's lots of room for misinterpretation all over the place.

here's a great example of how obeying the RoTR will get you into an accident.

http://goo.gl/FegdR

if you're coming east on the R157 approaching the big roundabout over the M3 and you want to go south onto the M3/N3, you need to take the right hand lane (regardless of using the sequential or clock method), indicating right as you go round, until you pass the exit before the one you want and then indicate left, merge into the left hand lane and take the exit onto the single lane M3/N3 slip road before joining the motorway.

the problem is, if you try and do that at 8am you're going to have someone coming in from the entrance directly before your exit pull out either right in front of you as you do it or drive into the side of you because they see you just as you come round the bend in the right hand lane and just put their foot down, close their eyes and aim for the slip road because its a busy junction and if you wait for a totally clear spot, you'll be there waiting all day.

the only way to safely come from the direction i initially described, is to have moved into the left hand lane before you come round the bend, but indicate right so the queue of traffic knows you're coming their way (and not exiting at the exit directly before them to go the the way they've come from) and doesn't pull out.

if the roundabout had taken into account all the people who are avoiding the M3 toll by using the N3 through Dunshaughlin, they would have put in a 'left only' filter lane and made the slip road 2 lanes going onto the motorway, but they didn't so we're kind of stuck.

unfortunately, the googles maps link is a little incomplete as the M3 roadworks appear to have still been going on when the pictures were taken, so you might not see the problem fully unless you've used the junction, but i've been dropping my wife off at the train there at the M3 Parkway for a few weeks now and i've tried just about every way of getting onto the M3 from there and the buggers don't make it easy!

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Why is there a need for an "easy and clear method to explain the locations of the exits in a manner that would be clearly and easily understood" if the RoTR guidelines on roundabouts are clearly and easily understood?

because nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool. :pac:

Iwannahurl

vibe666 wrote: »

because nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool. :pac:

True, but if there are two equally large cohorts of "talented fool" and one is getting extra clarifying information and the other is not, what situation is likely to develop?

J_R

Iwannahurl wrote: »

True, but if there are two equally large cohorts of "talented fool" and one is getting extra clarifying information and the other is not, what situation is likely to develop?

Hi,

See it happen almost every day. One car has to brake to avoid a collision. Usually the one who brakes is the one who received the better tuition.

Other driver goes through totally oblivious of the fact but for the awareness and anticipation of the other driver there would have been an accident.

Using the clock face is only a method of explaining the position of the exits. Has nothing to do with the rules. Only other method would be the compass points, either in degrees or cardinal points.

Have seen posts on here where the poster rubbishes the clock method, then uses them to explain the position of the exits.

Iwannahurl

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

See it happen almost every day. One car has to brake to avoid a collision. Usually the one who brakes is the one who received the better tuition.

Other driver goes through totally oblivious of the fact but for the awareness and anticipation of the other driver there would have been an accident.

Using the clock face is only a method of explaining the position of the exits. Has nothing to do with the rules. Only other method would be the compass points, either in degrees or cardinal points.

Have seen posts on here where the poster rubbishes the clock method, then uses them to explain the position of the exits.

Sorry to keep harping on about this, but if the RoTR clearly explains exit positions for general use of roundabouts, why is further 'off-RoTR' explanation necessary?

And if only one cohort of motorists is getting these extra 'grinds', do we now have a two-tier system of roundabout use?





.

zynaps

Bigcheeze wrote: »

It's an advantage to everyone as like I said previously, much of the traffic in the left lane will be turning left, so using both lanes will achieve higher traffic throughput on the roundabout.

Not necessarily though. When going straight through a simplistic cardinal-direction roundabout, you could expect 30% of cars going left, 30% straight, 30% right and a few confused people going all the way around.

If you take the right-hand lane, apart from the chance that you'll be cut off by someone in the left lane heading straight (or worse, heading for a later exit), there's could be a contention issue if you exit into a single lane, or the left lane terminates quickly (or is a bus lane, like on the Malahide Road/Artane roundabout in Dublin - almost everyone takes the right-hand lane going straight there, not sure if the markings dictate it). These situations are always a bit of a bottleneck - you can't increase throughput if the exits are slowing drivers down. The aforementioned roundabout is a horrific example of this with a ridiculous insta-change pedestrian crossing right at the mouths of at least two exits.

If everybody going straight took the left lane, then there would be no contention issue, and as someone else stated, you can't be cut off by someone taking a later exit.

J_R

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Sorry to keep harping on about this, but if the RoTR clearly explains exit positions for general use of roundabouts, why is further 'off-RoTR' explanation necessary?

And if only one cohort of motorists is getting these extra 'grinds', do we now have a two-tier system of roundabout use?
.

Hi,

Who, Where does it say the RoTR is the definitive guide to the rules and that it clearly explains all circumstances. It is not a bible and we are not religious fanatics that must follow it word for word.

Using the clock face is only an AID to assist a person to visualize the exit positions. Some instructors also use magnetic boards with little magnetic cars, others use drawings. I used a magnetic board but now only use drawings because the board only had a four exit roundabout. I draw roundabouts with five six eleven twenty exit sketches anything, everything to get the message clearly across.

And if only one cohort of motorists is getting these extra 'grinds', do we now have a two-tier system of roundabout use?

Yes unfortunately, not alone for roundabouts but also for traffic controlled junctions, in fact all driving situations. You only have to read back through the "Unsuccessful" thread in the "Learning to drive forum" to see people who failed because of inadequate, sub standard tuition.