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https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2055940817/signature-rules
https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2055940817/signature-rules
How to Use A Roundabout
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okay, its time for me to start as i mean to go on.
i stepped away from the debate for a few days because i was getting too worked up over this whole thing and started taking personal shots at people because they disagreed with me and that was very wrong on my part.
so, to Vertakill and bbk and anyone else I might have taken an unnecessary dig at, i offer my sincere apologies. it was wrong of me and if i lose the plot and do it again, I heartily encourage anyone to quote this message and ask the mods to get the banhammer out.
i have already said that when i'm wrong i'm happy to admit my mistakes and its only right that i stand by that assertion so i hope that this is enough to clear the air.
the thing is, now that i've actually caught up with the thread again, i'm all fuuuuuuuuuu and i haven't even posted anything new yet!
i'll try and restrain myself as best i can in any case, for the sake of my own non-banning if nothing else.
so, what we have now (imho) is further muddied waters BY the RSA making things worse by saying this:
seriously, WTF is that supposed to even mean? (and i'm reflecting on what the RSA mean in their reply to Iwannahurl, not him/her for posting it in the thread).3. Are the two methods ('new' Clock method versus old Number-of-Exits method) compatible?
We do not see these as old or new methods both are equally valid and we believe they cannot be used independently of each other.
how can both be equally valid if they CAN'T both be used independently?
I've emailed the RSA to ask them to clear things up and for them to create a boards.ie account and ask for the mods promote them so they have an official RSA: bob (or whatever) account so they can answer things in an official capacity.
i know i'm changing my tone completely here, but how can anyone be expected to know which method to use in ireland when the RSA can't even give a conclusive answer to a simple question without confusing things further?
BTW, someone asked about the rest of Europe all using the 'clock' method a few pages ago, but i believe someone also used Spain as an example of an EU country that doesn't, which is "technically" correct, but functionally speaking it's like using Joseph Fritzl as a valid alternative method of running a B&B.
I actually drove in Spain for the best part of 4 years and the Spanish system is that you use the outside (relative to the centre) lane of any roundabout to go anywhere except coming 360 degrees right round it to go back the way you came, which is for the inside most lane (back to front, driving on the left anticlockwise layout) so you take the right hand lane if you are going right, straight OR left off the roundabout, but at the same time, if there are two or more lanes entering a roundabout the lanes are also treated by the majority of drivers as the same as if the roundabout wasn't there, so they are just an extension of the motorway lanes making any inside lanes ALSO overtaking lanes :eek: even though you have people on the outside lanes crossing right in front of them to go left.
as far as I am aware, the Spanish 'Kamikaze' system isn't actually in the highway code, but it IS actually taught by driving instructors because everyone (everyone Spanish) does it and if you try and use the regular EU 'clocks' system you'll get t-boned by a Spaniard very quickly, which is a very severe learning experience for other europeans visiting spain who are usually the ones it happens to (a lot).
there have been several campaigns (admittedly, mostly by the non-spanish contingent) to bring them in line with the rest of europe, but so far it seems to have fallen on deaf ears.
anyway, the short version is that Spain is the exception, or at least very much in the minority and should not be used as a good example for others to follow unless you really want to know what your motor would like like with a Seat Ibiza sticking out of the side of it!
Also, i think Iwannahurl had asked about the definition of what exactly constituted "straight on", so I did a little (crap, MS Paint) illustration, based on the OP's original picture that shows it as it was taught to me by my driving instructor in the UK when I was 17 (I'm 34 now).
as far as I am aware, this is the system that has always been in place in the UK for as long back as anyone can remember and although officially speaking the clock method is not mentioned, it is taught as an easy way for anyone to visualise the roundabout based on their relative position and either by looking at the roundabout as they approach, or the signs leading up to it for bigger roundabouts, pick the most appropriate exit from there.
the important thing for everyone to remember about the clocks method is that it not only makes it easy for you to know which lane to take (if there are no markings to dictate otherwise) it also makes it easy for everyone else (either already on, or preparing to enter/leave) around you to quickly work out based on your relative position and signalling, where you are likely to be going.
the other important thing to remember is that as it's used (almost) everywhere else you're likely to be driving, you aren't going to have any problems using roundabouts abroad AND people coming here and getting hire cars aren't as likely to drive into you on a roundabout because they think you're going somewhere else.
the other thing is, if the clocks & numbers methods are almost the same, 99% of the time (as has been previously mentioned, why not change your habits to the same as everyone else for that 1% of the time? once the RSA have conclusively cleared up all these muddy waters anyway. 0 -
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the other thing is, if the clocks & numbers methods are almost the same, 99% of the time (as has been previously mentioned, why not change your habits to the same as everyone else for that 1% of the time? once the RSA have conclusively cleared up all these muddy waters anyway.
Fair point, except that the proportions using the different rules may be as much as 50/50 and there is no official guidance insisting that all motorists use the preferred method.
Now that I have heard about it for the first time, I agree that the Clock method makes intuitive sense.
For example, I happily used it here for the first time just the other day. I was travelling from top right (of map/photo) to bottom left. Past 12 o'clock, so right lane.
Dare I ask what others would have done? :cool::):D:p:pac:;):rolleyes::eek::(:mad:
The trouble is, I'm still watching out for 'the other guy' who is in the left lane, and if any aggro occurs he'll just throw the RoTR at me.
By the way, just found this Indo article by pure fluke. Wish I'd seen it in 2004, or even just last week for that matter. Here's the text in full:Better driving: Negotiating roundabouts by numbers
Irish Independent, Friday September 03 2004
WHEN dealing with roundabouts, it is always important to position where road markings indicate. Use the 'clock method' to determine your signal. This is based on the principle that you are always approaching from the 6 o'clock position, which means the exit to your left is 9 o'clock, the road directly in front is 12 o'clock, and the road to the right is 3 o'clock.
If leaving by the 9 o'clock exit, apply your left indicator and, if road markings allow, approach in the left lane. Maintain your left signal throughout and only cancel it when you exit.
The normal procedure for taking the 12 o'clock exit is to have no signal as you approach the roundabout in the left hand lane (if road markings allow) and keep in this lane as you negotiate the roundabout. When you are level with the centre point of the 9 o'clock exit, indicate left to exit at 12 o'clock. The other option is to approach in the right-hand lane. Your signals would be the same, but you would maintain the right-hand lane throughout.
Where a roundabout goes from two lanes on approach to one lane on exit, consider which side of the road narrows. If the road narrows on the left-hand side, for example by the kerb cutting in, then it may be better to select the right-hand lane, as this will allow a smoother line without having to change lanes, and vice versa.
If leaving by the 3 o'clock exit, you would normally approach in the right-hand lane unless road markings indicate otherwise. Indicate right on approach and maintain this signal until you get level with the centre of the second exit. Then change to a left signal. Where it is safe to do so, leave the roundabout by the left-hand lane. It is very important, however, to stress that you should give way to traffic already in the left-hand lane and if it is not safe to change lanes, remain in the right-hand lane as you exit.
Going all the way around the roundabout is an extension of taking the 3 o'clock exit but maintain your signal and road position until you get level with the centre point of the 3 o'clock exit, then change your signal to the left and leave by the left-hand lane if it is safe.
On multi-exit roundabouts, the clock method gives you a flexible guide. If the exit you are taking is to the left, signal left on approach and maintain this signal. If the exit is before 12 o'clock, there is no signal on approach and a left signal when you are exiting. If your exit is past 12 o'clock, signal right on approach and change to a left indicator when you go to leave the roundabout.
In general, you can usually position in the left hand lane on approach to a roundabout if the exit you are taking is before the 12 o'clock position. You would select the right hand lane on approach if your exit was past the 12 o'clock position. Only where conditions allow, should you leave by the left hand lane.
Weekly safety advice courtesy Mike Kavanagh, Irish Advanced Motorists0 -
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Zubeneschamali wrote: »I haven't changed my driving based on this thread, but it has lowered my blood pressure a bit.
Each day, I drive through this roundabout in Galway, coming from the West and turning right on the N6. This signage clearly shows that the N6 is to the right. The road markings clearly show that N6 traffic should be in the right hand lane.
Yet every day, it's like feckin bumper cars with drivers turning right to the N6 in the left hand lane. I always thought this was just queue-jumping rule-breaking douchebaggery, but now I realize that many people were taught that this is the normal lane to use for a second exit. The lane markings aren't very visible in traffic, and these people may actually think they are driving sensibly.
Probably not, but it lowers my blood pressure to give them the benefit of the doubt.
No matter what rule -- or method, to be more accurate -- they use, they are incorrect if they ignore local signage and road markings. That at least is clear in the RoTR.
Would Zen Driving or some such help to keep your BP down? 0 -
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but you'd still be wrong to take the left lane at all if *you were using the clock method as the exit in question isn't at 12 o'clock, it's at </> 2:30 (i.e. further round the clock than 12 and therefore not straight thru, but a 'later exit').The poll was flawed. There should have been a third option of "Left or Right" which I would have selected.
*assume you are as mentioned in your earlier post0 -
Iwannahurl wrote: »:Better driving: Negotiating roundabouts by numbers
Irish Independent, Friday September 03 2004
WHEN dealing with roundabouts, it is always important to position where road markings indicate. Use the 'clock method' to determine your signal. This is based on the principle that you are always approaching from the 6 o'clock position, which means the exit to your left is 9 o'clock, the road directly in front is 12 o'clock, and the road to the right is 3 o'clock.
If leaving by the 9 o'clock exit, apply your left indicator and, if road markings allow, approach in the left lane. Maintain your left signal throughout and only cancel it when you exit.
The normal procedure for taking the 12 o'clock exit is to have no signal as you approach the roundabout in the left hand lane (if road markings allow) and keep in this lane as you negotiate the roundabout. When you are level with the centre point of the 9 o'clock exit, indicate left to exit at 12 o'clock. The other option is to approach in the right-hand lane. Your signals would be the same, but you would maintain the right-hand lane throughout.
Where a roundabout goes from two lanes on approach to one lane on exit, consider which side of the road narrows. If the road narrows on the left-hand side, for example by the kerb cutting in, then it may be better to select the right-hand lane, as this will allow a smoother line without having to change lanes, and vice versa.
Is this guy serious, that's shockingly bad avdvice!! So you go straight ahead from the right hand lane because there's a kerb "cutting in", in the process cutting somebody off who has taken the correct lane through the roundabout? If there's only one lane how can it be cutting in to either one side or the other, no wonder people can't use roundabouts properly reading rubbish like this. 0 -
Is this guy serious, that's shockingly bad avdvice!! So you go straight ahead from the right hand lane because there's a kerb "cutting in", in the process cutting somebody off who has taken the correct lane through the roundabout? If there's only one lane how can it be cutting in to either one side or the other, no wonder people can't use roundabouts properly reading rubbish like this.
I think he's talking about anticipation really. If on the exit road the left lane merges into the right, then it would be good forward planning to join the right lane rather than the left.0 -
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Is this guy serious, that's shockingly bad avdvice!! So you go straight ahead from the right hand lane because there's a kerb "cutting in", in the process cutting somebody off who has taken the correct lane through the roundabout? If there's only one lane how can it be cutting in to either one side or the other, no wonder people can't use roundabouts properly reading rubbish like this.
Competent drivers are capable of merging. It's not a new concept.0 -
but you'd still be wrong to take the left lane at all if *you were using the clock method as the exit in question isn't at 12 o'clock, it's at </> 2:30 (i.e. further round the clock than 12 and therefore not straight thru, but a 'later exit').
*assume you are as mentioned in your earlier post
No I'm a die hard sequential practitioner.....excpet where conditions dicate otherwise 0 -
but you'd still be wrong to take the left lane at all if *you were using the clock method as the exit in question isn't at 12 o'clock, it's at </> 2:30 (i.e. further round the clock than 12 and therefore not straight thru, but a 'later exit').
*assume you are as mentioned in your earlier post
"After 12 o'clock" is sufficient information.No I'm a die hard sequential practitioner.....excpet where conditions dicate otherwise
If I had my way the RoTR would be dictating otherwise! Instead what we have now is a case of divide and misrule.0 -
In a PM to me someone suggested that it would be relatively simple and inexpensive to redo the voiceover on the RSA roundabout ad in order to educate all drivers about the new and correct rules. I'm not sure how workable that would be if the ambiguous RoTR document remains in circulation, but it got me wondering anyway.
How would you rewrite the script?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPjIlh9DTZc
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