Trail blaizing irish women

Nevyn

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/independent-woman/blazing-a-trail-for-women-in-spite-of-the-sneers-2512702.html

Thursday Jan 27 2011

This is a man's world, Ballyfermot balladeer Mary Byrne memorably crooned on The X Factor -- and this week it transpired that some football pundits, at least, certainly still think so.

Sky Sports' Andy Gray was shown the red card by the station after he and fellow commentator Richard Keys were busted making sexist remarks about assistant referee Sian Massey off-air during a match.

"The game's gone mad," bemoaned Keys of the 25-year-old female officiator, before they agreed that the delicate female mind couldn't possibly comprehend the offside rule.

So just why are they still so surprised to see cracks in the glass ceiling -- when all over the world, women are seizing prime roles in previously male-dominated arenas such as business, sports and politics?

The whole sorry misogynistic mess had a whiff of the famous Harry Enfield sketch urging women to 'Know Your Limits!'.

But from cracking crime to literary acclaim, for Ireland's trail-blazing ladies, it seems the Sky's the limit -- pun intended.

Take Tourism Minister Mary Hanafin, who this week threw her hat in the ring to become the eighth leader -- and first female leader -- of Fianna Fáil.

Though ultimately well beaten by Micheál Martin, Hanafin unashamedly played the gender card in the race for Brian Cowen's political grave.

"This is a party, this is a country that is divided evenly 50:50 male and female," she said. "We should never have a situation where the largest party in the country is presenting four men to contest the leadership."

And when asked if the old boys' club of the Dáil was ready for a lady leader, Hanafin conceded: "I'm ready to lead them. The question is whether they're ready for me to lead them."

With prominent female TDs Beverley Flynn, Olwyn Enright and Mary Harney all exiting the corridors of power in the past few months, it remains to be seen if Mná na hÉireann will be as motivated to vote in the upcoming general election as they were in 1990.

A watershed moment in women's lib, female voters came out in force to make 46-year-old lawyer Mary Robinson the country's first female president.

As a left-wing candidate with designs on shaking up laws on divorce, homosexuality and contraception, Robinson's detractors scarcely needed to resort to sexism à la Gray and Keys to get their digs in.

But that didn't stop Pádraig Flynn from controversially accusing the mum-of-two of "having a new-found interest in her family" to boost her bid for the Áras.

Thanks in part to that case of foot-in-mouth, underdog Robinson went on to yank the rug from under Fianna Fáil favourite Brian Lenihan.

"Something has crumbled away in this election," she said, "the old preconceptions, the old ways."

If the looming election looks set to be massacre for the outgoing government, it's nothing compared to what Ireland's first female State Pathologist Dr Marie Cassidy has witnessed during her career.

Over the past 25 years, she has examined over 10,000 bodies and helped crack some of the country's most gruesome crimes.

Turning up at crime scenes in Victoria Beckham-style sunglasses, the mum-of-two is portrayed as something of an anomaly -- a woman in control of her emotions.

Her defence is simple.

"When I first started, being a woman was alien," she recalled in TV documentary Death Duties, "particularly to the police.

"You must remember that until fairly recently, forensic pathology was essentially a male preserve.

"Nobody can prepare themselves for the shock of dealing with a mutilated body," adds the distinguished Glaswegian. "(But) I can deal with it because the person is dead.

"They are not suffering any more, but the families are suffering and they need answers.

"The families don't want me sobbing in a corner."

So as 'Pee' Flynn intimated two decades ago, must ambitious women sacrifice part of their femininity to survive in a man's world?

"It was never that difficult for me," tells author Anne Enright on juggling career and motherhood. "I remember rocking the pram with one hand and typing with the other.

"I think being a woman is like being Irish," quipped late Dublin-born author Iris Murdoch. "Everyone says you're important and nice, but you take second place all the time."

Except perhaps, in the history books, where ground-breakers like Aer Lingus pilot Captain Gráinne Cronin, who retired last year, will be remembered long after any balding buffoons.

Touching down for good after 33 years of service in the skies, the airline's first female pilot admitted it "wasn't easy" working in such a male-dominated industry in the late '70s.

But the company praised the Malahide mum as a 'trailblazer' who paved the way for other female pilots. And that's a word that's unlikely to ever be used in the same sentence as Andy Gray and Richard Keys.

I guess one of the factors which can put off girls and young women looking at certain careers is that they don't see any other women in them, so they have no role models or mentor, and if they decided sod it and become a trail blazer themselves it can be a long and lonely road. We have had some women take on this role over the years but I wonder where the next generation is sometimes.

krudler

Thaedydal wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/independent-woman/blazing-a-trail-for-women-in-spite-of-the-sneers-2512702.html



I guess one of the factors which can put off girls and young women looking at certain careers is that they don't see any other women in them, so they have no role models or mentor, and if they decided sod it and become a trail blazer themselves it can be a long and lonely road. We have had some women take on this role over the years but I wonder where the next generation is sometimes.

probably wondering how they can get famous and fast, seems to be more of a draw than doing something worthwhile in a particular field for young people these days.

Feeona

Thaedydal wrote: »

I guess one of the factors which can put off girls and young women looking at certain careers is that they don't see any other women in them, so they have no role models or mentor, and if they decided sod it and become a trail blazer themselves it can be a long and lonely road. We have had some women take on this role over the years but I wonder where the next generation is sometimes.

As a teacher, if I'm doing History/SPHE/Science with the class, I'll specifically do a lesson on famous female scientists such as Rosalind Franklin, Marie Curie and Mary Katherine Gaillard (especially if it's an all girls' class). They might still want to do traditional jobs, but I hope that lessons like that would open their minds to other possibilities.

LegacyUser

A watershed moment in women's lib, female voters came out in force to make 46-year-old lawyer Mary Robinson the country's first female president.

Comments like this always seem a little odd/demeaning to me. It seems to make it about a battle of the sexes, and to imply things like men would never vote for a woman and that female voters would heavily base their voting decision on the sex of the candidate.

WindSock

Bar politics, are there many trails left to be blazed as a woman to be the first in the field of_______

It is great that women have constantly proved theories wrong that we are incapable of obtaining a Phd, operate machinery, write literature, endure physical hardship with sports, hold positions of power and compete for jobs after having children but at the moment I cannot think of much else we have to prove wrong. Prove me wrong though

hinault

As a male poster, I think Dr Claire O'Leary is a real Irish womens trailblazer.

Who is she?

First Irishwoman to climb Mt Everest.
She did it in 2004.:)

panda100

Its odd you posted that Thaed because I was just musing on the same questions yesterday after I got a copy of 'UCD connections' alumni magazine in the post and was having a flick through it.
It struck me how little women they had in it. All the interviews and features were from male graduates now in prestigious positions. There was even a big feature on 'men in the media'....because we all know how underrepresented men are in Irish media,right?!

In the opening pages was a four page spread on '2010:A year in the spotlight', where UCD spoke of its alumni's successes in 2010. On the first page there was only one women featured,Claudine Palmer Keane, with a big picture beside it of a women wearing a revealing dress. It goes on to say that Claudine is the wife of soccer star,Robbie Keane, graduated with an honours degree and secured a six figure modelling contract this year with lingerie brand Ultimo.

The second page features actors,lawyers,scientists, economists but no women!

The third page feature Ali hewson, who it describes as being married to the most famous man in the world, and then a small bit about her charity work.

It was a pretty depressing read that out of the thousands of women who graduate from UCD each year, the most notable women graduates in 2010 were women who married rich, successful men

opinion guy

Slightly off topic here but prompted by panda100's post. Oh yes obviosuly a male here. It never ceases to amaze me how on Facebook say, so many women I know seem to go out of their way to post glamour shots of themselves for all to see. For example new friend a few days ago who I barely know - yet as soon as we 'facebook friends' I can see on her new profile page multipe pictures of her scantily clad in various sexy poses. I don't understand this. Why does this lady, certainly beautiful, in a professional job, feel the need to put such pictures of herself available in an almost-public way. The point I'm getting to is this - it used to be seen as 'vulgar' to put semi naked photos of yourself in public (not that I'm saying that was right either), but my point is - when did it become acceptable, nay desirable, for otherwise professional women, to put glamour shots of themselves available to the public. When did this become a good thing ?

I ask because ask a male I genuinely don't understand this. If I had 2 stone less flab and some muscles yes I would be pleased with that, but I wouldn't be putting it on facebook for all to see. Its kind of none of anyones business. Its not just one lady I am talkign about though I am using a specific example - its a widley prevalent trend as far as I can see.

opinion guy

opinion guy wrote: »

Slightly off topic here but prompted by panda100's post. Oh yes obviosuly a male here. It never ceases to amaze me how on Facebook say, so many women I know seem to go out of their way to post glamour shots of themselves for all to see. For example new friend a few days ago who I barely know - yet as soon as we 'facebook friends' I can see on her new profile page multipe pictures of her scantily clad in various sexy poses. I don't understand this. Why does this lady, certainly beautiful, in a professional job, feel the need to put such pictures of herself available in an almost-public way. The point I'm getting to is this - it used to be seen as 'vulgar' to put semi naked photos of yourself in public (not that I'm saying that was right either), but my point is - when did it become acceptable, nay desirable, for otherwise professional women, to put glamour shots of themselves available to the public. When did this become a good thing ?

I ask because ask a male I genuinely don't understand this. If I had 2 stone less flab and some muscles yes I would be pleased with that, but I wouldn't be putting it on facebook for all to see. Its kind of none of anyones business. Its not just one lady I am talkign about though I am using a specific example - its a widley prevalent trend as far as I can see.

I've never seen that :eek:

Logical Fallacy

In our modern world, if you are not a complete and total success, you are an utter failure...which i think is a very hard lesson to be putting on people.

It's not enough to be a singer, you have to be a world class talent with super model good looks. It's not enough to be good at your sport, you have to be a world champion etc etc.

In my opinion, there is a certain erosion of the respectability of effective normality. There is only ONE place at the top of any field, and it has become the case that this is all we really care about. Maybe not as individuals but most certainly as a society.

Launching an early bid for the heights of success and failing is effectively throwing yourself to the wolves so i don't blame anyone for either playing their cards close to their chest or just not wanting to play the game at all.

Earthhorse

thisisausername wrote: »

Comments like this always seem a little odd/demeaning to me. It seems to make it about a battle of the sexes, and to imply things like men would never vote for a woman and that female voters would heavily base their voting decision on the sex of the candidate.

Actually, I find comments like this even less necessary:

Except perhaps, in the history books, where ground-breakers like Aer Lingus pilot Captain Gráinne Cronin, who retired last year, will be remembered long after any balding buffoons.

Why the demeaning insult? Imagine the equivalent about a man succeeding in a female dominated field who showed up those "blonde bimbos". You'll have to imagine it because it would never get to print and neither should the above.

WindSock wrote: »

Bar politics, are there many trails left to be blazed as a woman to be the first in the field of_______

Depends. Does blaizing a trail mean being the first woman in a field or the first woman to be amongst the elite in her field?

I can understand the concern about the low percentage of women in certain professions because I do think it can make it harder for others to come on board, there's less of a network there when I think of my circle of friends and compare men and woment it's kinda hard to gauge who is doing "better" than whom. People are following the path they want to, within reason, and that's the bigger victory as far as I'm concerned.

the_syco

panda100 wrote: »

The second page features actors,lawyers,scientists, economists but no women!

So? Your comment reminds me of how people want a percentage of TD's in the Dáil having to be women. Not because they earned it, but because it would be "equal" and "fair"... :rolleyes: By having to have women in the alumni magazine, it demeans any women that actually made it into it, as people will see her as "the percentage that have to be shown in the alumni magazine", as opposed to any women who did very well for themselves.

panda100 wrote: »

graduated with an honours degree and secured a six figure modelling contract this year with lingerie brand Ultimo.

Also, what did she get an honours degree in? If she, like many other women, got an honours degree in, for example, chemistry, getting a "six figure modelling contract" really means f**k all, and it tells me that the alumni magazine is clutching at straws to show that "oh look, we has a woman in the alumni magazine"...

=-=

There is one Irish woman, educated herself, who lived in and around the 1800's. Think it was Agnes Clerke, but may have been someone else (although Agnes fitted the timeline I was thinking of).

metrovelvet

I always find admiration and astonishment at a woman' accomplishments a double edged sword. Sure it could be a pat on the back for breaking a barrier or it could be a product of low expectations, like watching a four year old play a violin concerto.

Logical Fallacy

metrovelvet wrote: »

I always find admiration and astonishment at a woman' accomplishments a double edged sword. Sure it could be a pat on the back for breaking a barrier or it could be a product of low expectations, like watching a four year old play a violin concerto.

Or it could just be congratulations for a person who has achieved their goals.

opinion guy

Hilary Weston prehaps ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilary_Weston

Chinafoot

the_syco wrote: »

So? Your comment reminds me of how people want a percentage of TD's in the Dáil having to be women. Not because they earned it, but because it would be "equal" and "fair"... :rolleyes: By having to have women in the alumni magazine, it demeans any women that actually made it into it, as people will see her as "the percentage that have to be shown in the alumni magazine", as opposed to any women who did very well for themselves.

Uhmm..personally when I read panda's post I didn't see it as a criticism that those terrible magazine writers decided not to include women, but rather that the lack of women could possibly show that it is still incredibly tough for women to break into and achieve high levels of success in the areas that she mentioned.

Permabear

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Stheno

Chinafoot wrote: »

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I thought the same

Permabear wrote: »

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I don't agree.

Were I to compile a list of women I consider trail blazing, I've a few I'd pick

Founder of Lily O'Briens.
The lady who set up in opposition to Eircom for Directory Enquiries.
The director of CPL Anne Heraty

I can think of more but not at the moment. I admire Ivana Bacik although my politics don't agree with her, but she has taken a path and pursued it.

In terms of my profession (IT) there are a fair few women who are highly placed in IT in Ireland, but sadly there is no true forum for them to meet.

With my next job, potentially I will be the only woman in Ireland with the qualification that I will have. Trail blazing? No. Worthy of mention? No. Why? Lots of other women around the world have it

Permabear

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metrovelvet

Permabear wrote: »

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Yes I agree but historically women in the US have had a head start in every which way.

You could also make the same analogy for Irish men though, compared to what men have done in the US.

metrovelvet

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Or it could just be congratulations for a person who has achieved their goals.

Men who make the equivalent or parallel achievements dont get Irish Times sarticles which point to their gender along with calls to pump up the balloons and pop open the champagne.

opinion guy

Permabear wrote: »

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Cough....

opinion guy wrote: »

Hilary Weston prehaps ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilary_Weston

metrovelvet

opinion guy wrote: »

Cough....

All her achievements were done in Canada as a Canadian.

opinion guy

metrovelvet wrote: »

All her achievements were done in Canada as a Canadian.

Still born and bred in Dublin till she meant her hubbie. Went on to become 26th Lieutenant Governor of Ontario (aka almight ruler :P) Considered the richest Irish person (by rte in a countdown list a couple of years back). Richer than smurfit and bono and ryanair guy and everything*. Also not everything she did is in Canada, was Director of Brown Thomas in Dublin, and Selfridges in London.

By any measure she is a truly trailblazing Irish woman, yet almost noone here knows who she is.

Besides according to this:
http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10001172.shtml
She lives both in Canada, Ireland and the UK

*this being post cetlic tiger ireland being rich is consider the highest acheievement

Permabear

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Stheno

Permabear wrote: »

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Yup, I took it in an Irish context

In an international context, I agree with your point about both male and female achievers

opinion guy

Charlie McCreevy anyone ?????



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..........:pac::P:eek:

I'll get me coat

panda100

Chinafoot wrote: »

Uhmm..personally when I read panda's post I didn't see it as a criticism that those terrible magazine writers decided not to include women, but rather that the lack of women could possibly show that it is still incredibly tough for women to break into and achieve high levels of success in the areas that she mentioned.

Yep!
There was something like 70 men featured and 10 women. Considering women outnumber men in UCD, there is something seriously amiss when the only notable UCD female graduates are lingerie models and married to rich pop stars. What is it that happens between school and college and entering the workforce that reverts women back into the underachievers?


Also as for Hiliary Weston,all the reports I've seen of her have harped on about her incredible beauty when she was younger. I think she was Miss Ireland and a model. Then she was swept of her feet by a man who fell in love with her incredible beauty and became incredibly wealthy.

I dunno, but for me thats not a trail blazing women. We know women can use their looks to make copious amounts of money. The only two world industries where we can make more money than men is modelling and porn. It would be great to see Irish women get to places where they can make a real difference by not having to use their looks,but glass ceiling seem to be pretty stuck in places.

Earthhorse

I had this really eloquent post planned in my head but when I sat down to write it the words won't come so apologies if this turns into a bit of a list rather than a convincing defence of our achievements as an island with little in the way of resources and a small population. If people believe we haven't had an impact on the world that is out of proportion, or at least equal in proportion, to other nations then the kind of narrow mindedness that goes hand in hand with begrudgery is indeed alive and well in Ireland today.

In Bono and U2 we have one of the huge pop culture icons and bands of the 20th century. They have faded in terms of their importance as all huge bands do but they are an absolute giant in the world of music, they have hugely influenced the sound of modern pop and rock as well as engaging on one of the most pioneering and ground breaking tours in the form of Zoo TV. Bono, along with Bill and Melinda Gates (good company in my book), was Time's Person of the Year in 2005. This isn't about loving or hating him or his band but acknowledging what they've achieved.

In Shane MacGowan we have a man whom many consider to be the modern poet laureate of songwriting. And in as much as a lyricist can be considered a poet it is difficult to discard the claim. Personally, I find his personality repugnant, and there were few things I hated more growing up as a lad than the twee 'hiddle-dee-di' of so many Irish reels. But listen to songs like A Pair of Brown Eyes or A Rainy Night in Soho and if you aren't moved go to the doctor immediately; they'll be interested in seeing how a heart made of stone works.

In Enya, we have one of the top selling and unique artists in the world. Again, like U2, her accomplishments can be easily derided as elevator music - the kind of claim that can only be made by someone who has never held a musical instrument or sat down to compose a song or a begrudger.

Though I have little love for her, Sinéad O'Connor is in possession of an incredible vocal talent that few can match. Who can forget her powerful performance of Prince's Nothing Compares 2 U and her brave, though rather juvenile, gesture of ripping up a photo of Pope John Paul II on what eventually ended up being a world stage; an act which now, metaphorically, has become a popular pastime online, but, bear in mind, she did it a time when the church still had a strong stranglehold on Irish society.

And Bob Geldof was almost single handedly responsible for, through his sheer force of will and sense of injustice, driving one of the defining cultural moments of the 20th centruy. Band Aid was a huge accomplishment, in and of itself. Live Aid caught the world's attention and we can quibble about how much it actually did to shape the future of Africa but the sheer amount of money raised, the attention he brought to the continent is, in it's own right, unparalleled. He is one of the few men of whom you can say no one else would ever have achieved this.

Ah God, I'm going to start boring you if I haven't already but Roy Keane, Gabriel Byrne, Dylan Moran, Seán Hughes, Richard Harris, Seán MacBride, Ernest Walton - these are just the people springing to mind, how can you say we haven't done well on the world stage? If you want more obscure figures you can look to the likes of Eileen Gray and Tom Crean.

Though I'm loathe to include people who consider themselves Irish (Daniel Day Lewis, Spike) I can't understand exlcuding people who were raised in Ireland but established themselves abroad. You wouldn't achieve much on the world stage if you didn't become a citizen of it and we are hardly going to say that Armstrong's greatest achievement represented a victory for Moonmen everywhere.

Permabear

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Earthhorse

Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes so. My post was a retort to the assertion that Ireland was not notable for producing high achievers. I can't agree with that.

I don't know that we can expect to have many in every generation either, it's more likely things like that will ebb and flow.

Nevyn

I think it's not just being the first woman to do X, I would say it's about role models for our children (both boys and girls). It can be hard to comprehend sometimes how not seeing a person you idenify with in a certain field/profession has an impact on a person considering that field/profession for themselves.

We do as people identify with other's along gender lines, we are not past that yet.

metrovelvet

Earthhorse wrote: »

Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes so. My post was a retort to the assertion that Ireland was not notable for producing high achievers. I can't agree with that.

I don't know that we can expect to have many in every generation either, it's more likely things like that will ebb and flow.

You left out Colin Farrel and Cecelia Aherne. ANd that marathon woman [I forget her name].

Earthhorse

I left out plenty of people and some companies too. It's not an exhaustive list. I'm merely making the case that we punch above, or about, our weight in terms of our standing in the world.

metrovelvet

Earthhorse wrote: »

I left out plenty of people and some companies too. It's not an exhaustive list. I'm merely making the case that we punch above, or about, our weight in terms of our standing in the world.

Yes I suppose for a small country that is true. I dont think small countries like Malta can say the same, but then Ireland was lucky to have English as its native language to gain the appreciation, attention and commerce of the anglophone world.