NAMA scam underway?

Iwannahurl

Posted this in Irish Economy but zilch response.

A former auctioneer/valuer, Sen. Mark Daly I think, is warning that the Irish taxpayer is being scammed again, this time via flaws in NAMA. On Today PK earlier today.

As far as I can gather, this is what is happening.

NAMA is selling assets through competitive tendering, which is not an open and transparent process.

In some cases properties are being sold well below their current market value. "People in the know" -- possibly including developers who were the former owners of these properties -- are organising groups of friends to buy up the assets at the knock-down NAMA price. The asset is then sold on at a realistic market price, and the syndicate divides the spoils.

Nice one, if true. And if it is true, it's a massive scandal.

smash

shock horror : SF TD makes up bull**** story....

FatherLen

nama nama
nama nama
nama nama
nama nama
BATMAN!

Wompa1

FatherLen wrote: »

nama nama
nama nama
nama nama
nama nama
BATMAN!

I LOVE THE LEADER! I get to live in this paradise and all I have to do is pay about 35 euro to the government a day for the pleasure...not including the tax on stuff I buy and my other living expenses. That was meant to paraphrase Homer explaining it to Marge but I just went on a tangent

mathie

NAMA scama ding dong?

Wibbs

steve06 wrote: »

shock horror : SF TD makes up bull**** story....

Eh he's a Fianna Failer from what I can see?

ilovesleep

Ireland will be a country of tinkers in a few more years. Why should anyone co-operate with whats happening?

Sanjuro

steve06 wrote: »

shock horror : SF TD makes up bull**** story....

Shock horror: reactionary boards poster fails to check facts.

Guy:Incognito

Wibbs wrote: »

Eh he's a Fianna Failer from what I can see?

Well then automatically everyone here thinks hes lieing, so alls well.

bladespin

ilovesleep wrote: »

Ireland will be a country of tinkers in a few more years. Why should anyone co-operate with whats happening?

It already is, the mess we've made of ourselves just goes to prove this.

ejmaztec

steve06 wrote: »

shock horror : SF TD makes up bull**** story....

How do you know it's made up?

Lumen

Iwannahurl wrote: »

In some cases properties are being sold well below their current market value.

I think that is technically impossible.

drdeadlift

bladespin wrote: »

It already is, the mess we've made of ourselves just goes to prove this.

Is it really that bad

Pompey Magnus

steve06 wrote: »

shock horror : SF (WRONG!) TD (WRONG!) makes up bull**** story....(PROOF?)

Sorry but I'm going to have to fail you on that post.

Zebra3

McWilliams wrote about it some time ago how €2Bn is being put aside for all the solicitors being kept on NAMA's payroll and how as the state now controls so many of the banks, there's no need for NAMA.


Unless you are trying to redistribute wealth from the poorer sections of society to the richer parts.

myflipflops

Whatever about the legitimacy of this specific story, I think it's nearly certain that some people will be making under handed profits from the whole Nama/property situation.

This type of thing been ingrained in so many people for so long, it seems unlikely to change 100% overnight.

bladespin

drdeadlift wrote: »

Is it really that bad

I think so at times, TBH the first time this country becomes prosperous in it's history it's raped by it's government and citizens (not all maybe but the majority), really doesn't instill a lot of confidence in the people of Ireland, it's easy to blame the government that was elected, the banks that people flocked to for loans and mortgages, the developers who supplied a huge public demand, the builders who charged royally to build the houses that the public demanded, the public that bought the houses despite being told the property market was inflated, the public who demanded ever higher wages so they could buy the houses that were overpriced etc etc. oh, wait, that's just about everybody

AnonoBoy

SCAMA?

drdeadlift

bladespin wrote: »

I think so at times, TBH the first time this country becomes prosperous in it's history it's raped by it's government and citizens (not all maybe but the majority), really doesn't instill a lot of confidence in the people of Ireland, it's easy to blame the government that was elected, the banks that people flocked to for loand and mortgages, the developers who supplied a huge public demand, the builders who charged royally to build the houses that the public demanded, the public that bought the houses despite being told the property market was inflated, the public who demanded ever higher wages so they could buy the houses that were overpriced etc etc. oh, wait, that's just about everybody

I agree 100%

drdeadlift

Zebra3 wrote: »

McWilliams wrote about it some time ago how €2Bn is being put aside for all the solicitors being kept on NAMA's payroll and how as the state now controls so many of the banks, there's no need for NAMA.


Unless you are trying to redistribute wealth from the poorer sections of society to the richer parts.

And what are we going to do about it,NOTHING AT ALL

ilovesleep

drdeadlift wrote: »

And what are we going to do about it,NOTHING AT ALL

I cant understand how people can lie down and roll around in such abuse.

Id say for many it will be black economy ireland. If the taxpayers want to be fools so be it. Guess what the taxpayers will get more enjoyment from - shopping their neighbours out instead of going after the real scumbags at the top.

Iwannahurl

In truth I was rushing and under pressure while the interview was being broadcast so I didn't catch the guy's name. I hope he is a reliable source.

As I understand it, the allegation was that NAMA and/or the banks are selling on some properties quickly to get some money in ASAP.

NAMA has just said that they have not sold any assets. The (nationalised) banks may also do so, and NAMA says that the process is EU approved.

However, the central point remains. If the assets are being sold cheaply because of the haircut and a desire to offload as quickly as possible, then there is an opportunity for smart operators to make a quick buck.

The interviewees claim was that "people in the know", including developers whose properties were taken on by NAMA, were organising groups of friends and acquaintances to submit tenders on their behalf, with the aim of dividing the spoils when the assets were subsequently sold on at a profit.

Hopefully there will be more clarity on this. If it's true, there will be ructions.

Zebra3

drdeadlift wrote: »

And what are we going to do about it,NOTHING AT ALL

It's simple.

Don't vote for candidates who support NAMA and the bailing out of failed private businesses by the taxpayer.

Iwannahurl

It's Mark Daly alright.

Story being picked up elsewhere, but there is some scepticism about its accuracy.

Will be interesting to see how this one unfolds.

biko

All the ingredients of a good conspiracy

FreudianSlippers

There is some good NAMA news though. They are taking some more smaller and profitable loans and are exposing the banks and shareholders to about 5% more risk than previously.

The Government has published amendments to the National Asset Management Agency legislation this evening.
The measures will allow the agency purchase all AIB and Bank of Ireland land and development loans. The previous threshold was all loans in excess of €20m.
Up to 20,000 of these smaller loans will move across to NAMA under this new arrangement.
The Government said that to ensure the speedy transfer of so many loans, the NAMA (Amendment) Bill 2011 will allow the agency to buy them on an expedited basis under the new provisions.
The changes were agreed as part of the EU/IMF bailout and are due to be implemented in the first quarter of 2011 under the programme.
The discounts to be applied by NAMA will be based on previous transfers to date depending on where they are and the extent to which the development of that land has been completed.
This means that different discounts may apply depending on whether the land is located in Ireland, Northern Ireland or the UK.
The bill also says that banks will be obliged to give NAMA accurate details of the sub €20m land and development loans they hold.
If this is breached a maximum penalty of up to 10 years in jail could be imposed.
There will also be a change to the mix of NAMA bonds and more risky subordinated bonds being paid to the banks for the loans up to €20m in value.
Until now 95% of the bonds have been NAMA bonds and the balance more risky subordinated bonds, which could only be cashed in if the new agency ultimately makes a profit.
Under the amendment only 90.1% would be NAMA bonds.
This would mean the two banks would share a higher level of losses if NAMA ultimately losses money.

Mister men

steve06 wrote: »

shock horror : SF TD makes up bull**** story....

Lol. Priceless. Don't let being wrong get in the way of a good story.:pac:

AnonoBoy

Mister men wrote: »

Lol. Priceless. Don't let being wrong get in the way of a good story.:pac:

Being wrong is what made this country great.

drdeadlift

You do something wrong you should suffer the consequences,this f!cking nama thing seems only to be preventing any loss for the well to do

Blazer

seriously...can anyone say they're surprised if this turned out to be true?

whitesands

NAMA has been a scam from the start...

They have 100's of 1000's of empty apts & houses, where are these on the open market???? If anyone wants to disprove this conspiracy theory show me just 1 house or apt that nama is selling!

What they can't sell to private connected investors they will try to sell to individuals at inflated prices.
Example: Anglo Irish now doing residential mortgages to get value
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/anglo-irish-now-doing-residential-mortgages-to-get-value-2509117.html

Basically, sell a house to 1 idiot at current inflated prices, they reckon (know) it's easier for loads of people to pay them small amounts than a developer owing them huge amounts. As usual the little guy get's screwed

This is only the tip of the iceberg...

Minstrel27

steve06 wrote: »

shock horror : SF TD makes up bull**** story....

I love it. Do you usually dive head first into things without first looking?

FreudianSlippers

whitesands wrote: »

NAMA has been a scam from the start...

They have 100's of 1000's of empty apts & houses, where are these on the open market???? If anyone wants to disprove this conspiracy theory show me just 1 house or apt that nama is selling!

What they can't sell to private connected investors they will try to sell to individuals at inflated prices.
Example: Anglo Irish now doing residential mortgages to get value
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/anglo-irish-now-doing-residential-mortgages-to-get-value-2509117.html

Basically, sell a house to 1 idiot at current inflated prices, they reckon (know) it's easier for loads of people to pay them small amounts than a developer owing them huge amounts. As usual the little guy get's screwed

This is only the tip of the iceberg...

I 100% agree. I want to see the Anglo offices in St. Stephen's Green turned into an estate agent for NAMA where they have information and prices on the properties they hold and people can go in and buy them.

I'm sure many companies would like to buy an office on the cheap rather than rent and many people are still in the market to purchase homes and apartments.

neris

Was it on Kenny this morning aswell that one guest said Capitalism got us into this mess and capitalism will get us out of it.

Id say if Joe Higgins heard that over in Strasbourg there,s be enough steam coming out of his ears to power the parliaments electricty for the next year

squod

Trusting these career criminals to run an organisation like NAMA is just crazy.
Hopefully the electorate will have some sense in the coming months. have a feeling we'll just have more antics from the funny handshake brigade once FG get a look in.

bonerm

FatherLen wrote: »

nama nama
nama nama
nama nama
nama nama
BATMAN!

Nama Nama
Doo doo, de doo doo
Nama Nama
Doo doo, de doo
Nama Nama
Doo doo, de doo doo , de doo doo , de doo doo , de doo doo , .......

FreudianSlippers

bonerm wrote: »

Nama Nama
Doo doo, de doo doo
Nama Nama
Doo doo, de doo
Nama Nama
Doo doo, de doo doo , de doo doo , de doo doo , de doo doo , .......

Oh NAMA, well you came and you gave without taking but I sent you away, oh NAMA well you kissed me and stopped me from shaking I need you today, oh NAMA!














Am I doing it right?

drdeadlift

Where can i find a list of developers that are involved with nama?

Lumen

I don't know how you can manipulate these closed tender processes without either having inside information or operating a cartel. Cartels only work if all participants are known to each other and capable of collaborating without anyone blowing the whistle. This gets very difficult for more than a couple of parties. If the bidders have already stitched up a deal to re-sell the properties, the party to whom they are selling could just come in and undercut them.

Part of the problem with the Irish property market is that there's not yet a record of selling prices (like there is in the UK with the Land Register) due to (supposedly) legal issues around privacy & data protection. I've used Zoopla to track UK property prices for a relative, and it's brilliant. Tells me exactly which properties sell every month in a given area, and for how much.

There is too little transparency, too late, in the Irish market.

On the other hand, determining "value" in a market which is both extremely low in transactions and subject to State manipulation/intervention is hard. Property prices are almost entirely driven by availability of credit, there is no "true" value apart from the rebuilding cost of the physical structure.

When people ask "what's it worth" they really mean "what could I sell it on for". And that's anyone's guess, since it involves predicting outcomes which are entirely driven by the future subjective decisions of people.

FreudianSlippers

Lumen wrote: »

I don't know how you can manipulate these closed tender processes without either having inside information or operating a cartel. Cartels only work if all participants are known to each other and capable of collaborating without anyone blowing the whistle. This gets very difficult for more than a couple of parties. If the bidders have already stitched up a deal to re-sell the properties, the party to whom they are selling could just come in and undercut them.

Part of the problem with the Irish property market is that there's not yet a record of selling prices (like there is in the UK with the Land Register) due to (supposedly) legal issues around privacy & data protection. I've used Zoopla to track UK property prices for a relative, and it's brilliant. Tells me exactly which properties sell every month in a given area, and for how much.

There is too little transparency, too late, in the Irish market.

On the other hand, determining "value" in a market which is both extremely low in transactions and subject to State manipulation/intervention is hard. Property prices are almost entirely driven by availability of credit, there is no "true" value apart from the rebuilding cost of the physical structure.

When people ask "what's it worth" they really mean "what could I sell it on for". And that's anyone's guess, since it involves predicting outcomes which are entirely driven by the future subjective decisions of people.

That could be changed relatively easily mind you. Just a matter of someone stepping up and doing it.

Iwannahurl

OisinT wrote: »

Oh NAMA, well you came and you gave without taking but I sent you away, oh NAMA well you kissed me and stopped me from shaking I need you today, oh NAMA!

Am I doing it right?

I Need Your Help, Barry Namalow

My account is overdrawn, my car slid down the hill
I'm givin' up, I've got no more to give
My beagle bit the vet, and my daughter's on the pill
And my ficus plant has lost its will to live

I owe Mastercharge my life, I've got adolescent skin
My doctor says I can't use any salt
My waist is getting thick, but my hair is getting thin
And my house is on the San Andreas fault...

I need your help, Barry Namalow
I'm miserable and I don't know what to do
Sing me a song, sing it sad and low
No one knows how to suffer quite like you

My shrink is out of town, my love life is a joke
My ex-wife sold my diary to Rona
All my ashtrays are overflowed, and I don't even smoke
And my sinuses came back from Arizona...

I need your help, Barry Namalow
I'm all alone and sitting on a shelf
Sing me a song, sing it sad and low
I feel like feeling sorry for myself

I need your help, Barry Namalow
Your songs can really comfort the unlucky
Sing me a song, sing it sad and low
I wish I didn't have to feel so yucky...
I wish I didn't have to feel...

So yucky!!!

Zebra3

neris wrote: »

Was it on Kenny this morning aswell that one guest said Capitalism got us into this mess and capitalism will get us out of it.

Capitalism didn't get us into this mess.

If capitalism had been let take its natural course, the banks would've been let fail.

Instead what we have is socialism for the rich or welfare for the elite.

Take your pick of phrase.

smash

Minstrel27 wrote: »

I love it. Do you usually dive head first into things without first looking?

Yep

joebucks

drdeadlift wrote: »

Where can i find a list of developers that are involved with nama?

http://namawinelake.wordpress.com/the-developers/

Iwannahurl

Minstrel27 wrote: »

I love it. Do you usually dive head first into things without first looking?

steve06 wrote: »

Yep

Risky!

scientific1982

ilovesleep wrote: »

Ireland will be a country of tinkers in a few more years. Why should anyone co-operate with whats happening?

What do you mean will be. We already are.

Lumen

Zebra3 wrote: »

If capitalism had been let take its natural course, the banks would've been let fail.

That's overly simplistic.

But lets ask Seany Fitzpatrick shall we?

In the Marian Finucane interview in 2008 (warning: may cause heartburn), he said (at 21:10 onwards):

Sean Fitzpatrick wrote:

If the Irish banking system had just exploded, then you don't know what could have happened. We could have actually been dominated by foreign banks, and the big difficulty there is, that they tend to pull back to their place of birth when there's difficulties, and Ireland would become the New Zealand of Europe. So that's why it's so important that the Irish government acted.

So, it was about naked protectionism of the Irish banking sector against foreign competition.

But wait, what's this about New Zealand?

Wikipedia wrote:

Public debt 29.3% of GDP (2009 est.)
Unemployment: 7.3% (2009 est.)
Ease of Doing Business Rank: 3rd

Oh noes, that sounds just awful.

Zebra3

Lumen wrote: »

That's overly simplistic.

Nope, it's naked capitalism.

What the rich wanted in the good times.

FreudianSlippers

Lumen wrote: »

That's overly simplistic.

But lets ask Seany Fitzpatrick shall we?

In the Marian Finucane interview in 2008 (warning: may cause heartburn), he said (at 21:10 onwards):



So, it was about naked protectionism of the Irish banking sector against foreign competition.

But wait, what's this about New Zealand?



Oh noes, that sounds just awful.

Not necessarily directed at Lumen... but building upon the quoted post.

Part of the problem here is that they used the US style of bailouts where the bad debt was bought and sold almost immediately to companies that actually profit off of holding and repossessing these properties.

In a way, our protectionist attitude has hurt us rather than help us. We can't have our cake and eat it too - for NAMA to work, we need to repossess properties and resell them to pay off the debt

We will never recoup the amount that was lost, but some money back is better than no money back.

It does not work to purchase toxic assets and then do nothing with them for an extended period of time in the hope that someday they may be valuable again.
We had to bail out the banks. We had zero choice.
The problem is that we were told we'd need x amount by people trying to hide something like little children try to hide a mess they've made.
They tell their parents it's not that bad and pull the rug over slightly to the right.
When the parents finally find the mess it's dried in and ****ed, whereas if the child just told their parents what happened and the extent of what happened immediately they may have been able to clean most of it up quickly and easily.
These lying children need to be punished so that they learn a lesson.

How do we hold those responsible to account? Criminal investigations a la Madoff.

Look, it's not AIB and BoI's fault... and it's not all bankers and all politicians fault.
It's really partially our fault too.

We have bailed out and own most of AIB and BoI now... let's make sure they have responsible and transparent practices into the future. Get over it and move on.
But there needs to be a criminal inquiry as well as a civil inquiry into who did what and when... and those people need to be removed from the system and punished either in the wallet or through incarceration or both.

NAMA is a necessary evil - it needs transparency and we should demand it from our new leaders.

I just hope that with an election looming, we use it as a way to start fresh rather than keep harping on about things that we cannot do anything about now.
You know what they say about hindsight...

Iwannahurl

ilovesleep wrote: »

Ireland will be a country of tinkers in a few more years. Why should anyone co-operate with whats happening?

There have always been thinkers in this country. Deep thinkers. Even Travellers are philosophical -- I suppose they have to be.

FreudianSlippers

Zebra3 wrote: »

Nope, it's naked capitalism.

What the rich wanted in the good times.

I disagree to an extent. I think that the way it was looked at in other countries that followed the same principle was that it was a good business practice on the part of the government to purchase these toxic assets.

The government (as a business) could profit off of these properties long-term; and short-term, they were ensuring liquidity to keep themselves afloat.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander, in other words.

There was nothing uncapitalistic about the bailout in the US, nor (in theory) the Irish bailout/NAMA. The problem we had here was lack of truth, lack of transparency and blatant corruption.