NAMA scam underway?

Minstrel27 · 27-01-2011 01:45PM

steve06 wrote: »

shock horror : SF TD makes up bull**** story....

I love it. Do you usually dive head first into things without first looking?

FreudianSlippers · 27-01-2011 01:47PM

whitesands wrote: »

NAMA has been a scam from the start...

They have 100's of 1000's of empty apts & houses, where are these on the open market???? If anyone wants to disprove this conspiracy theory show me just 1 house or apt that nama is selling!

What they can't sell to private connected investors they will try to sell to individuals at inflated prices.
Example: Anglo Irish now doing residential mortgages to get value
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/anglo-irish-now-doing-residential-mortgages-to-get-value-2509117.html

Basically, sell a house to 1 idiot at current inflated prices, they reckon (know) it's easier for loads of people to pay them small amounts than a developer owing them huge amounts. As usual the little guy get's screwed

This is only the tip of the iceberg...

I 100% agree. I want to see the Anglo offices in St. Stephen's Green turned into an estate agent for NAMA where they have information and prices on the properties they hold and people can go in and buy them.

I'm sure many companies would like to buy an office on the cheap rather than rent and many people are still in the market to purchase homes and apartments.

neris · 27-01-2011 01:51PM

Was it on Kenny this morning aswell that one guest said Capitalism got us into this mess and capitalism will get us out of it.

Id say if Joe Higgins heard that over in Strasbourg there,s be enough steam coming out of his ears to power the parliaments electricty for the next year

squod · 27-01-2011 01:52PM

Trusting these career criminals to run an organisation like NAMA is just crazy.
Hopefully the electorate will have some sense in the coming months. have a feeling we'll just have more antics from the funny handshake brigade once FG get a look in.

bonerm · 27-01-2011 01:59PM

FatherLen wrote: »

nama nama
nama nama
nama nama
nama nama
BATMAN!

Nama Nama
Doo doo, de doo doo
Nama Nama
Doo doo, de doo
Nama Nama
Doo doo, de doo doo , de doo doo , de doo doo , de doo doo , .......

FreudianSlippers · 27-01-2011 02:01PM

bonerm wrote: »

Nama Nama
Doo doo, de doo doo
Nama Nama
Doo doo, de doo
Nama Nama
Doo doo, de doo doo , de doo doo , de doo doo , de doo doo , .......

Oh NAMA, well you came and you gave without taking but I sent you away, oh NAMA well you kissed me and stopped me from shaking I need you today, oh NAMA!

Am I doing it right?

drdeadlift · 27-01-2011 02:02PM

Where can i find a list of developers that are involved with nama?

Lumen · 27-01-2011 02:02PM

I don't know how you can manipulate these closed tender processes without either having inside information or operating a cartel. Cartels only work if all participants are known to each other and capable of collaborating without anyone blowing the whistle. This gets very difficult for more than a couple of parties. If the bidders have already stitched up a deal to re-sell the properties, the party to whom they are selling could just come in and undercut them.

Part of the problem with the Irish property market is that there's not yet a record of selling prices (like there is in the UK with the Land Register) due to (supposedly) legal issues around privacy & data protection. I've used Zoopla to track UK property prices for a relative, and it's brilliant. Tells me exactly which properties sell every month in a given area, and for how much.

There is too little transparency, too late, in the Irish market.

On the other hand, determining "value" in a market which is both extremely low in transactions and subject to State manipulation/intervention is hard. Property prices are almost entirely driven by availability of credit, there is no "true" value apart from the rebuilding cost of the physical structure.

When people ask "what's it worth" they really mean "what could I sell it on for". And that's anyone's guess, since it involves predicting outcomes which are entirely driven by the future subjective decisions of people.

FreudianSlippers · 27-01-2011 02:04PM

Lumen wrote: »

I don't know how you can manipulate these closed tender processes without either having inside information or operating a cartel. Cartels only work if all participants are known to each other and capable of collaborating without anyone blowing the whistle. This gets very difficult for more than a couple of parties. If the bidders have already stitched up a deal to re-sell the properties, the party to whom they are selling could just come in and undercut them.

Part of the problem with the Irish property market is that there's not yet a record of selling prices (like there is in the UK with the Land Register) due to (supposedly) legal issues around privacy & data protection. I've used Zoopla to track UK property prices for a relative, and it's brilliant. Tells me exactly which properties sell every month in a given area, and for how much.

There is too little transparency, too late, in the Irish market.

On the other hand, determining "value" in a market which is both extremely low in transactions and subject to State manipulation/intervention is hard. Property prices are almost entirely driven by availability of credit, there is no "true" value apart from the rebuilding cost of the physical structure.

When people ask "what's it worth" they really mean "what could I sell it on for". And that's anyone's guess, since it involves predicting outcomes which are entirely driven by the future subjective decisions of people.

That could be changed relatively easily mind you. Just a matter of someone stepping up and doing it.

Iwannahurl · 27-01-2011 02:10PM

OisinT wrote: »

Oh NAMA, well you came and you gave without taking but I sent you away, oh NAMA well you kissed me and stopped me from shaking I need you today, oh NAMA!

Am I doing it right?

I Need Your Help, Barry Namalow

My account is overdrawn, my car slid down the hill
I'm givin' up, I've got no more to give
My beagle bit the vet, and my daughter's on the pill
And my ficus plant has lost its will to live

I owe Mastercharge my life, I've got adolescent skin
My doctor says I can't use any salt
My waist is getting thick, but my hair is getting thin
And my house is on the San Andreas fault...

I need your help, Barry Namalow
I'm miserable and I don't know what to do
Sing me a song, sing it sad and low
No one knows how to suffer quite like you

My shrink is out of town, my love life is a joke
My ex-wife sold my diary to Rona
All my ashtrays are overflowed, and I don't even smoke
And my sinuses came back from Arizona...

I need your help, Barry Namalow
I'm all alone and sitting on a shelf
Sing me a song, sing it sad and low
I feel like feeling sorry for myself

I need your help, Barry Namalow
Your songs can really comfort the unlucky
Sing me a song, sing it sad and low
I wish I didn't have to feel so yucky...
I wish I didn't have to feel...

So yucky!!!

Zebra3 · 27-01-2011 02:20PM

neris wrote: »

Was it on Kenny this morning aswell that one guest said Capitalism got us into this mess and capitalism will get us out of it.

Capitalism didn't get us into this mess.

If capitalism had been let take its natural course, the banks would've been let fail.

Instead what we have is socialism for the rich or welfare for the elite.

Take your pick of phrase.

smash · 27-01-2011 02:20PM

Minstrel27 wrote: »

I love it. Do you usually dive head first into things without first looking?

Yep

joebucks · 27-01-2011 03:32PM

drdeadlift wrote: »

Where can i find a list of developers that are involved with nama?

http://namawinelake.wordpress.com/the-developers/

Iwannahurl · 27-01-2011 03:34PM

Minstrel27 wrote: »

I love it. Do you usually dive head first into things without first looking?

steve06 wrote: »

Yep

Risky!

scientific1982 · 27-01-2011 03:35PM

ilovesleep wrote: »

Ireland will be a country of tinkers in a few more years. Why should anyone co-operate with whats happening?

What do you mean will be. We already are.

Lumen · 27-01-2011 04:10PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

If capitalism had been let take its natural course, the banks would've been let fail.

That's overly simplistic.

But lets ask Seany Fitzpatrick shall we?

In the Marian Finucane interview in 2008 (warning: may cause heartburn), he said (at 21:10 onwards):

Sean Fitzpatrick wrote:

If the Irish banking system had just exploded, then you don't know what could have happened. We could have actually been dominated by foreign banks, and the big difficulty there is, that they tend to pull back to their place of birth when there's difficulties, and Ireland would become the New Zealand of Europe. So that's why it's so important that the Irish government acted.

So, it was about naked protectionism of the Irish banking sector against foreign competition.

But wait, what's this about New Zealand?

Wikipedia wrote:

Public debt 29.3% of GDP (2009 est.)
Unemployment: 7.3% (2009 est.)
Ease of Doing Business Rank: 3rd

Oh noes, that sounds just awful.

Zebra3 · 27-01-2011 04:31PM

Lumen wrote: »

That's overly simplistic.

Nope, it's naked capitalism.

What the rich wanted in the good times.

FreudianSlippers · 27-01-2011 04:32PM

Lumen wrote: »

That's overly simplistic.

But lets ask Seany Fitzpatrick shall we?

In the Marian Finucane interview in 2008 (warning: may cause heartburn), he said (at 21:10 onwards):

So, it was about naked protectionism of the Irish banking sector against foreign competition.

But wait, what's this about New Zealand?

Oh noes, that sounds just awful.

Not necessarily directed at Lumen... but building upon the quoted post.

Part of the problem here is that they used the US style of bailouts where the bad debt was bought and sold almost immediately to companies that actually profit off of holding and repossessing these properties.

In a way, our protectionist attitude has hurt us rather than help us. We can't have our cake and eat it too - for NAMA to work, we need to repossess properties and resell them to pay off the debt

We will never recoup the amount that was lost, but some money back is better than no money back.

It does not work to purchase toxic assets and then do nothing with them for an extended period of time in the hope that someday they may be valuable again.
We had to bail out the banks. We had zero choice.
The problem is that we were told we'd need x amount by people trying to hide something like little children try to hide a mess they've made.
They tell their parents it's not that bad and pull the rug over slightly to the right.
When the parents finally find the mess it's dried in and ****ed, whereas if the child just told their parents what happened and the extent of what happened immediately they may have been able to clean most of it up quickly and easily.
These lying children need to be punished so that they learn a lesson.

How do we hold those responsible to account? Criminal investigations a la Madoff.

Look, it's not AIB and BoI's fault... and it's not all bankers and all politicians fault.
It's really partially our fault too.

We have bailed out and own most of AIB and BoI now... let's make sure they have responsible and transparent practices into the future. Get over it and move on.
But there needs to be a criminal inquiry as well as a civil inquiry into who did what and when... and those people need to be removed from the system and punished either in the wallet or through incarceration or both.

NAMA is a necessary evil - it needs transparency and we should demand it from our new leaders.

I just hope that with an election looming, we use it as a way to start fresh rather than keep harping on about things that we cannot do anything about now.
You know what they say about hindsight...

Iwannahurl · 27-01-2011 04:34PM

ilovesleep wrote: »

Ireland will be a country of tinkers in a few more years. Why should anyone co-operate with whats happening?

There have always been thinkers in this country. Deep thinkers. Even Travellers are philosophical -- I suppose they have to be.

FreudianSlippers · 27-01-2011 04:37PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

Nope, it's naked capitalism.

What the rich wanted in the good times.

I disagree to an extent. I think that the way it was looked at in other countries that followed the same principle was that it was a good business practice on the part of the government to purchase these toxic assets.

The government (as a business) could profit off of these properties long-term; and short-term, they were ensuring liquidity to keep themselves afloat.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander, in other words.

There was nothing uncapitalistic about the bailout in the US, nor (in theory) the Irish bailout/NAMA. The problem we had here was lack of truth, lack of transparency and blatant corruption.

ascanbe · 27-01-2011 04:45PM

NAMA, as others has pointed out, has been a scam since the start; part of a grand-heist that includes the Anglo-bailout.
For an example of how brazen they can be and how easily the Irish people can be scammed: the building that serves as NAMA headquarters is being rented by the government from a group of developers who are being bailed-out by the government/Nama to the tune of billions.
Not only are they getting to pass their debt on to the state, they are now actually profiting from having created that debt.

whitesands · 27-01-2011 06:57PM

Here's a podcast from today discussing this...

http://www.rte.ie/podcasts/2011/pc/pod-v-27011121m25stodaywithpatkenny.mp3

Capt'n Midnight · 27-01-2011 09:51PM

FatherLen wrote: »

nama nama
nama nama
nama nama
nama nama
BATMAN!

Are you trying to say someone is robin'*

Capt'n Midnight · 27-01-2011 09:58PM

bladespin wrote: »

I think so at times, TBH the first time this country becomes prosperous in it's history it's raped by it's government and citizens (not all maybe but the majority), really doesn't instill a lot of confidence in the people of Ireland, it's easy to blame the government that was elected, the banks that people flocked to for loans and mortgages, the developers who supplied a huge public demand, the builders who charged royally to build the houses that the public demanded, the public that bought the houses despite being told the property market was inflated, the public who demanded ever higher wages so they could buy the houses that were overpriced etc etc. oh, wait, that's just about everybody

Very little of the debt is private mortgages, and most of that will be repaid in full. Don't ever think that most of this mess is the result of a small golden circle. And even thne we would have been OK if most of them hadn't been greedy and continuously over extending themselves.

Anglo who are responsible for most of the debt didn't lend to homeowners.

The real problems is that the government flooded the country with money by cutting income tax, created lots of extra civil service and hse jobs that essentially do nothing., and didn't try to regulate housing boom since they were raking about 45% of the house price in tax.

Blame the idiots who voted for tax cuts.

sollar · 27-01-2011 10:25PM

The trouble is that most people don't understand nama and therefore can't get riled up about something they only vaguely imagine is a dodgy set up.

It looks like some of the gob****es that had to be rescued by nama are going to be let profiteer on the back of it now....... god i wish i understood it and whether it really is as bad as were told

Liam Byrne · 27-01-2011 10:43PM

In the same way as two negatives make a positive, does that mean that a NAMA-focussed scam might actually be legit ?

Do flaws in NAMA mean that it might actually work for ordinary people instead of what it's designed to do ?

Son Of A Vidic · 27-01-2011 10:58PM

Well OP, should this come as any surprise really? I could say it's typically Irish, but I won't. Because greed exists everywhere and amongst all nationalities, it is not unique to us.

UDAWINNER · 27-01-2011 11:04PM

steve06 wrote: »

shock horror : SF TD makes up bull**** story....

He's not Sinn Fein, so less of the anti Sinn Fein tirade, keep your narrow views on the Fianna Fail Party which set up NAMA and now apparently giving deals to its friends. Wake up to being screwed by Fianna Fail and bash them.

ascanbe · 27-01-2011 11:23PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Very little of the debt is private mortgages, and most of that will be repaid in full. Don't ever think that most of this mess is the result of a small golden circle. And even thne we would have been OK if most of them hadn't been greedy and continuously over extending themselves.

Anglo who are responsible for most of the debt didn't lend to homeowners.

The real problems is that the government flooded the country with money by cutting income tax, created lots of extra civil service and hse jobs that essentially do nothing., and didn't try to regulate housing boom since they were raking about 45% of the house price in tax.

Blame the idiots who voted for tax cuts.

No: the real problem is, plain and simply, that this government made Anglo/developers debt into sovereign debt with the blanket-bank guarantee and Nama.
There would, of course, have to have been fiscal adjusments/cuts in the public service as a result of the mistakes made by our government in fueling the boom and over-spending.
No doubt these would've been harsh; but they would've been manageable.
This insane debt resulted in the our not being able to borrow on the market and led us into accepting this IMF/EU 'bailout'.
And, unless we pursue a different course, it will lead us to ruin.

newmug · 27-01-2011 11:41PM

Oldest trick in the book TBH

NAMA scam underway?

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