3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

jonnybigwallet

Procurement timescale is very leisurely if this article is correct!

Dohvolle

Interestingly, the author is based in Australia.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121734538#Comment_121734538

You mean compared to the years it’s taken to get to this point? 6 months isn’t a deal breaker, I mean you are likely talking years to get her built and inservice anyway.

salmocab

So would I be right in thinking the navy would have the 4 P60 class ships the 2 bought from NZ and the MRV in the hopefully not so distant?

based on that what sort of numbers are needed realistically to get to where they are all crewed properly along with shore personnel?

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121736832#Comment_121736832

It's not a question of numbers, it's key people. You could have a navy of 1200, and it wouldn't matter if you lacked the Engineers and artificers the ships need to remain at sea.

You need highly qualified technicians aboard to keep ships operational.

You need naval chefs to keep the crew fed for the duration of their patrol or deployment. Trust me there is nothing worse at sea than bad food.

You need Sick Berth Attendants capable of treating the normal range of injuries and illnesses a job of this nature is likely to encounter, whether on the Naval Vessel or a casualty encountered on other vessels.

The NS needs to keep what it has, and train up enough for the existing fleet. Its still 8 ships. We never had the establishment for 9. even when we had 9 ships. Hopefully that will change too, even if its just a paper exercise.

Larbre34

The various policy documents have themselves described that for purely seagoing ops, they want each ship of the 8 to have two full crews on the roster.

Thats 800, very roughly speaking, with 300 of those Officers and technical specialists.

Shore based support for 8 ships, running of the Base, plus training and CPD, as well as assignments to academia and to other DF functions and UN/EU etc, and eventually the SOF Maritime TG, the Navy is going to finish up in or around 1,400.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739655#Comment_121739655

One of the submissions to CoDF (commander in NS) did this calculation, it came back as follows.

"The key outcome from the CoDF process from staffing perspective must be an Establishment for the Naval Service that is fit for purpose and resilient enough to support the number of ships in service. As a minimum, using the benchmark / datum of an Establishment of 1144 personnel for seven ships, as specified in the EAG and VFM reports of the late 1990s, the following could be taken as a minimum organisational manning level, depending on hull numbers:

a. Seven hulls equate to: 1144 personnel.

b. Eight hulls equate to: 1307 personnel.

c. Nine hulls equate to: 1471 personnel.

d. Ten hulls equate to: 1634 personnel.

e. Eleven hulls equate to: 1798 personnel.

f. Twelve hulls equate to: 1961 personnel."

At present we have 8 hulls with roughly 700 personnel.

Larbre34

Interesting. And also depressing how far the journey back is.

Markcheese

8 hulls

- 2 roisin's with a crew of 44 each

4 becketts also crew of 44

2 kiwi protector 30 ish ,

And obviously training , administrative, maintenance ect ect ,

Do we need 8 pairs of crews though? Six of those performing much the same task ,

All right 1 is often out on refit , and 1 in port in minor maintenance, that still leaves 4 available for patrol ..

Larbre34

Yeah but that kind of establishment strength gives no flexibility for lads going into courses or on secondment or on parental leave and so on. Its part of the problem that got us here in the first place.

The objective of two fulls crews is appropriate and practical. By the time you take leave and all the other stuff out of it, its really more like 1.5 crews.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757518#Comment_121757518

Operating any form of naval vessel brings with it a large logistics train, as does keeping one or even 2 crews. Many of these roles will have no function at sea. Numerous appointments in the NS do not go to sea at all, at any point in their career, except perhaps for a brief term during training.

Even if you look at the RN, currently operating a fleet of 63 ships and boats with a seagoing compliment of about 8000 but a staff of 32000, you'll see that the normal strength is you need is about 4 times what is seagoing. By that logic, at current establishment, using international norms we still require an NS in excess of 1200.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757518#Comment_121757518

No such thing as "minor" maintenance when it comes to ships. Even the most routine of engine repairs require cutting large holes in the side, or deck of a ship to remove or replace oversized equipment. Anything below the waterline requires dry-docking, and the nature of naval operations is when you are out of the water, you are out of the business.

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759930#Comment_121759930

I know that ships are out of commission when being worked on - the advantage od having 4 of 1 class ,and 2 of a similar class , with similar crew requirements, is that you could factor in that 2 could inoperable at any one time,

So in effect thats 2 sets of crews for 4 ships , + the new protectors ,

Obviously there are many other roles to be filled in the naval service , as well as trainees and trainers ,

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759960#Comment_121759960

No, because scheduled downtime is the time when crew may be assigned to other training courses, or even annual leave. Shuffling between ships to keep ships at sea is not conducive to retention.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759960#Comment_121759960

I’m not sure what you are trying to argue here? How to try and run a navy with even less people than we have right now?

roadmaster

The headline below seams like end off the world stuff with the navy only having one ship at sea, but in the article there os good news with cathal berry saying the pay changes are making a difference and the navy will get back up to strenght but it will take time.

https://www.thesun.ie/news/12283737/irelands-coast-exposed-international-drug-shipment-lack-patrol/

Widdensushi

https://online.fliphtml5.com/rvma/ppgp/#p=56

https://online.fliphtml5.com/rvma/ppgp/#p=56

I see the customs have a 35m ship ordered from this yard for 25 delivery,, not sure of spec etc but this is a previous 35m vessel from the yard so I would be guessing it will be similar.

Dohvolle

Fine looking vessel. Pity the poor crew who will have to spend all that time in Vigo next summer working up.

Tough ole job.

thomil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121819078#Comment_121819078

Is this aimed to supplement the two vessels already operated by Customs or is this aimed as a replacement?

Widdensushi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822992#Comment_121822992

https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/press-office/press-releases/2023/pr-080323-new-vessel.aspx#:~:text=The%2035%20metre%20Customs%20Cutter,and%20to%20prevent%20and%20combat

https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/press-office/press-releases/2023/pr-080323-new-vessel.aspx#:~:text=The%2035%20metre%20Customs%20Cutter,and%20to%20prevent%20and%20combat

Replacement, but a big step up.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121822992#Comment_121822992

Replacing one. Depending on how it works out, you'll probably see a similar vessel replacing the 2nd cutter. Brexit changed everything. Saw Suirbheir at the marina recently, it's showing its age.

roadmaster

Would the UK take an offer of €300 million from us?

https://metro.co.uk/2024/02/29/navy-might-sell-off-3-500-000-000-hms-prince-wales-aircraft-carrier-20369541/amp/#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17092319545422&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com

Larbre34

Utter horseshit. Nothing of the sort is going to happen in the current climate.

Even if the UK economy is going to continue to go through difficult times (and it is) you may expect defence spending to massively increase. Massively.

There is simply no other choice.

Markcheese

Wasnt their original plan to only ever really operate 1 at time , so one on maintenance and crew training, and 1 on deployment ?

So likely only one full air wing , and one set of escorts , support ships ( which themselves need to be rotated,maintained ect )

Dohvolle

That's exactly what they are doing. HMS Queen Elizabeth was supposed to join the Nato ex, while Prince of Wales went for refit. However when Queen went u/s, Wales cancelled their refit with less than 20 days notice to sail.

You can be sure that anyone due to be on the ex on Liz is instead on the ex on Wales. It's the nature of the beast.

The Aircraft were always going to come from the same pool. RAF/RN don't have enough F35 yet to pick and choose.

RN Has a huge escort and support ship shortage at present.

vswr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121834335#Comment_121834335

POW ships company had leave cancelled and were recalled for the exercise.

QE crew is still onboard to get it to Scotland for repair.

I'm sure when QE is in dock, there may be some exchanges, but as it stands, it the same crew on each ship, just tasked differently now.

vswr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121834241#Comment_121834241

RN have know for years they don't have the support element for a carrier deployment, so since commissioning, it's always been a multi-nation carrier task force.

edit: NATO ships join UK Carrier Strike Group for start of exercise (mod.uk)

Widdensushi

Irish built flagship departed today, can't see another Irish built navy boat not a mind flagship in the future,then again the way they are vulnerable to drones attacking them maybe they are not the way forward.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121854542#Comment_121854542

Who knows what H&W might build at some point in the future if they continue, and I suppose the NSR boats don’t count. As to vulnerabilities or not, so far we’ve seen very different outcomes between Russian ships being attacked and Western ships being attacked, so I’d hold off on proclaiming the death of naval ships.

She served her time, now it’s time for her to go, as those before her have gone.

roadmaster

The 4 new NSR launchs are they been built in Kerry or just imported through a dealer in Kerry?