3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121642668#Comment_121642668

I've read that one, but to me that seems to just be based off the Journal's first article, the state dropping "the largest single spend procurement" (and isn't that a sad reflection of things) would I think get more coverage than just that?

Dohvolle

It hasn't appeared on etenders yet, so maybe the journo jumped the gun on it?

We know its in the pipeline, it has been since 2008. Best waiting for s DoD statement (he didnt get one) before we start picking bunks aboard.

Afloat will only pull something from the public domain and put it all in their space, so those with interest in things maritime don't have to scour the dailys.

roadmaster

I presume the Tender will be wrote to the specs of the ship the navy want so it will be very clear what we will be getting when the tender is posted.

Apart from the Dutch has any other nation sent there MRV for a visit?

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121646741#Comment_121646741

There wil be no tender, this will be a Prior Information Notice, telling potential contractors (who would have been in contact with the project manager all along) that a Tender wil issue in the coming months.

Nobody has sent an MRV for a visit. NZ is a bit of a commute, and they are the only ones with anything comparable, but our people have been out there for a good look at everything that was wrong with it.

vswr

Who is going to man this potential new ship? Navy, or will there be an auxiliary service setup? Or will it be a mix of military and civil?

jonnybigwallet

This is many years ahead so it is almost impossible to say. I would imagine that the preferred MO is for NS crewing 100%, given the possibility of deployment in areas of conflict

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121654998#Comment_121654998

Its a Naval vessel, it will have naval crew. It will be an asset who's use will be shared by Air, Ground and Naval forces.

It isn't a Naval Auxiliary. It's original designation was Extended Patrol Vessel before it became a Multi Role Vessel, and even if it was we never had civil manning aboard the 2 Auxiliary vessels we had in the past. The only civilian manned vessels in the Naval Base, are the DoD workboats and launches. In concept it would have a similar role as HMNZS Canterbury. It's not an LPD, by any extent.

There are very few Naval forces that have the resources to operate auxiliary vessels with civilian merchant crew. The UK used to have the RFA and the RMAS, but the RMAS role was contracted out of the MoD in the 1990s (I think Switzer Group do all that now), and the RFA are struggling to put ships to sea. I believe they have no fleet tankers any more, and the replacement is still on the drawing board.

Hopefully the finer details will drop in the coming days, as the Journal has promised, and we'll have a clearer view of what it isn't.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655427#Comment_121655427

Minor correction, they do have tankers still in operation, it’s their solid stores ships that are the issue, particularly as due to the 2010 review they only have one ship that can support the carriers and the Fort Vic is screwed. It is funny however on sites like UKDJ after seeing so many posters hitting us for our manning issues particularly in the engineering department that many of the posters have finally accepted that it’s not a unique issue for us, with their RFA and RN having the same growing problem, along with other navies around the world.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655705#Comment_121655705

RNZN have the exact same problem, and have 2 OPVs tied up to keep their tanker, frigates and Dive support ship at sea.

Thought all the RFA fleet tankers had to be mothballed due to lack of crew?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121656043#Comment_121656043

The list is fairly long and growing actually (something which some trolls here have ignored of course), RAN have tied up a couple of frigates as well.

As for the RFA, the two smaller tankers are tied up and likely won’t sail again for the U.K. The larger tankers have been operating though.

mupper2

Title: Procurement of a Multi-Role Vessel-MRV for the Irish Naval Service

Description: The Minister for Defence plans to undertake a procurement process to replace the decommissioned Irish Naval Service vessel, LÉ Eithne with a Multi-Role Vessel, with a design specification capable of providing a flexible and adaptive capacity for a wide range of maritime tasks, both at home and overseas. It is anticipated the new vessel will also be enabled for helicopter operations, freight/personnel carrying operations and will be the flagship of the Irish naval fleet.

Estimated value excluding VAT: 300,000,000 EUR​

https://ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOTICE:46369-2024:TEXT:EN:HTML&src=0

Larbre34

A red letter day indeed.

The price estimate of €300 million is instructive, though it is by no means a ceiling.

Worth mentioning that HNLMS Karel Doorman was delivered for €363 Million at 2014 price index, which adjusts to about €450 Million in 2024.

And so the scale of vessel we are looking at can be somewhat ascertained from that. It will be interesting if,down the line, the advice provided by Houlders on specification will make it into the public domain.

roadmaster

Is the extra 100 million due to extra scope or allowing for inflation?

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121659524#Comment_121659524

All inflation from 2014 to now. Obviously since 2020 that index has gone through the roof relative to the preceeding 30 years.

363m was its cost delivered, I have no idea what the RNLN original budget was.

sparky42

So, how long before the first soundbites about how many "hospitals/schools/houses..." or "warmongering NATO/EU ARMY!" from our wonderful collection of Left nutters?

But seriously, great to see this finally actually starting and now we get to argue about what options might be put forward and which we might prefer...

Markcheese

Now , they'll have to start thinking on spending a lot more than that to have crews to run the thing

The major advantage the irish navy have is that the patrols can be fairly regular and fairly short , ( for the most part) ,

if the Navy provide better work life balance, and decent family accommodation, as well as career training ,they'll get,(and keep) the required numbers no prob ,

People want a life - being in the royal navy ,US navy,and being told youre heading off for a 6 month or 1 year tour if you have family at home would be kind of daunting,

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660671#Comment_121660671

You mean the P60's? They've been in service for years now.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660657#Comment_121660657

I would say that it depends on a whole lot more than that, I mean do you think the Med patrols were unpopular? Or if things had been different the suggestion of joining Op Altantia back in the day? Do sailors really just want to be patrolling around the Irish coast all the time? I mean the MRV is likely still meant for outside of EEZ operations.

roadmaster

Would any work need to be done in the basin to alllow the MRV (assuming its between 100 & 120 meters ) to berth?

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121659518#Comment_121659518

When you take the cost of the Integrated mast out, And knowing roughly what size we aretalking about, you have the potential for very interesting proposals.

Consider also that Arrowhead is supposed to have a build cost (as a Frigate) for GB£250 Plus GFE, that should make a version of it a contender at least.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121661159#Comment_121661159

Has it managed to stay within that cost bracket, thought Babcock and the MOD were arguing about the price a while back? Also even if they were in budget I thought the variant was more “raider” style amphib than anything with dedicated RO-RO capability?

Dohvolle

Documents reveal bill for Ireland's largest naval ship is likely to reach €300m (thejournal.ie)

Insert cool ship photo here.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121661269#Comment_121661269

What Dublin Live will no doubt publish as a file photo illustrative of the ship type.

Dohvolle

For the sake of Info, this is what the MRV started out as. I don't think the dimensions have changed much. (From the original Request for proposals in 2007). Back then the Budget was €100m, because we thought we could get 2 OPVs for €50m. Each OPV ended up costing close to €100m.

Length 130 – 140M

Beam 16-20 m

Draft 4.0- 5.0 m

Max Speed 22-26 Kts Cruise Speed 15 Kts Loiter Speed 0 – 8 Kts

Range 8,500 nm Endurance 24 days

Propulsion Diesel, Diesel Electric, DE Hybrid,

Power Generation Diesel Generators, Shaft Alternator, PTO/PTI

Communications HF, VHF, UHF, GMDSS, SAT

Radars Navigation and Air Defence

Stabilisation Active and Passive

Flight Deck 1 Spot for a 10 metric tonne helicopter

Medical LEVEL 11, for 2 pers.

Accommodation Crew + 12 trainees.

Options

Proposals should be provided for the following additional options

1.Helicopter in-flight Refuelling Facility

2.Provision of Dynamic Positioning class 2 or 3

3.Because of the required size of the vessel, there may be potential to increase the utility of the vessel in other roles which would be desirable but not essential.* In this regard, the potential to provide a level of carrying capability for personnel, military vehicles and containers within the size and configuration of the vessel to which the mandatory requirements give rise, should be set out in the proposals.

In this regard, the proposal should indicate the possible arrangements/ combinations of personnel, vehicles and containers that could be accommodated and should indicate the lane metres that can be designed into the vessel.* Annex A indicates the type of items which might be carried on the vessel although not necessarily at the same time.* Proposals should include separately the option of a facility for cargo discharge where no port infrastructure exists.* The implications of including such carrying capacity and cargo discharge arrangements on the nature of the proposed vessel should be fully outlined in the proposal. As already stated above, these optional additional capabilities are desirable but are not essential requirements of the proposed patrol vessel.

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121661269#Comment_121661269

Just firing these out into the ether...Indonesia's PT PAL is building a couple of 123m long LPD for the Philippines and a 163m one for the UAE

Dohvolle

How much?

Grassy Knoll

as has been stated the usual tripe about trade off vs hospital beds, houses, social welfare lolly etc will inevitably come out … it is not an either or … we are a modern, wealthy European country, highly international in outlook and trade with other countries is the how we pay our way. It is totally legitimate that we have the appropriate military assets to protect our growing domestic maritime based interests, play our role in terms of the naval domain, humanitarian taskings, North Atlantic patrols and surveillance etc the days of freeloading should be put behind us and are demeaning of our sovereignty.

IMHO the level of informed opinion on this has increased significantly in the past few years, to be frank any one who espouses a contrary view is not to taken seriously, to put it diplomatically. However, the big Achilles heel remains the crewing crisis, accusations of white elephant will be harder to defend against if there are ships tied up. Re quay space the DF infrastructure Cap Ex plan has work down for 2025/26 on the old graving dock west wall.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121662192#Comment_121662192

Looks like $50 million.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_Navy_new_124-meter_Landing_Platform_Dock

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121662192#Comment_121662192

Worked out to about 45.5 million Euro a ship, the UAE one works out to about 376 million Euro

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121662299#Comment_121662299

That’s a hell of a mark up between the two designs.