3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

Tabnabs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121471971#Comment_121471971

The multi-role support ship (MRSS) is designed and built to a commercial Ro-Ro ship design and specification. No everyone can accept this as fact.

Larbre34

Just like this one I suppose?

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121471985#Comment_121471985

Who mentioned MRSS?

RavenP

@Tabnabs i think that we will have to see the specs of the tender be what the successful tender looks like before we can say that. A few years ago I would probably have agreed that it would probably have been based on a ro ro design. A lot has changed in a few years however, and possibly the delay in the tender appearing reflects changed circumstances. It may end up being a spec that favours a more frigate like design or alternatively, while still based on a ro to design it may have the extra watertight compartments, fire fighting and sensor and defensive suite of a more fightey warship. I guess we shall see.

Grassy Knoll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469912#Comment_121469912

Of eight ships we can only crew two …. we can talk about refits and commissioning vessels and so on but whatever their ‘status’ it hasn’t facilitated more than two and means we have relatively new ships tied up and we are supposed to be moving to double crewing … Hopefully 2024 brings an improvement but this will be a marginal game for years

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473898#Comment_121473898

And as I said already, any newbuild is minimum 5 years off, and CODF has then committed to a fleet replacement. It takes 3 years to train a Watchkeeping officer, Other ranks can be trained in much less time, after that its all about experience.

5 years is a long time.

2024 will tell a lot.

jonnybigwallet

Given that the potential purchase of a MRV is currently being looked at by a firm of bean counters, I'd be very surprised if we see something along the lines of an Absalon as has been suggested. Also 200 million euros doesn't buy a whole lot.

jonnybigwallet

I like the look of that new super frigate that Jonny German has on order. About 1.5 times the displacement of an Arleigh Burke and the biggest ship they've had since the days of the Kriegsmarine. Don't expect we'll be seeing one them with LE in front of the name any time soon!

Dohvolle

Its only a frigate in Germany. If anyone else ordered the same design they'd call it a destroyer.

Irellevant to this discussion. May as well be asking which ferrari would be the best replacement for the Land cruiser.

jonnybigwallet

Of course you're 110% right Doh. Just thought some of the participants might fancy googling it and appreciate it. Tis a right cracker ya have to admit.

Wish our miserable government would put their hands in their arse pocket and be prepared to fund more than a token armed force.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121476052#Comment_121476052

Not really, most European nations don’t use the “destroyer” label, no matter how big the “frigate”

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121476406#Comment_121476406

By most you mean Germany and France?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121477324#Comment_121477324

Both of them from memory differentiate over taskings with "frigates" being ASW or GP while the UK and Italy have AAW as "destroyers", but really its ust nation choice. I mean look at the FREMM, which can be any of the above, or the fact that the planned new Italian AAW class is going to be well into "cruiser" tonnage like the Zumwalt class is (and arguably some of the Burke derivatives as well).

Dohvolle

In US Service, the frigate has vanished completely, with the Cruiser and Destroyer being of similar size, and of interchangeable roles. The Constellation class will be similar in size to the Arleigh Burke class Destroyers.

Its a fluid term. The use of Corvette is returning also, indicating a ship smaller than a frigate, but similarly armed, specified for Anti Air or anti Submarine warfare.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121478400#Comment_121478400

The Constellation will be a few thousand tons smaller than the Burke's, and I think they are going to be Frigates, but yeah as you say there's Corvettes growing in popularity.

jonnybigwallet

In Spain 🇪🇸 they refer to "el destructador "

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121477324#Comment_121477324

British destroyers of today aren't really anything of the sort.

The Type-45 is larger than the old Type-82 Fleet Carrier Escort, of which only one example was built.

And so the '45' is basically a guided missile cruiser.

One the few navies that still operate fast mid-size missile boats (100-120m, 3-4,000 tons) aka Destroyers, is China.

Tabnabs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121472336#Comment_121472336

You did @Dohvolle on your post with the VARD 7-313. You're the one sticking up photos and captioning them with comments like

Have faith folks.

Soon.

What would you call the VARD 7-313 if not a Multi-Role Support Ship?

Tabnabs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121472021#Comment_121472021

Funny, you seemed so keen on something more suitable?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121463331#Comment_121463331

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121481968#Comment_121481968

Oh, right. I thought this was what you meant.

Multi Role Support Ships – the future of Royal Navy amphibious capability | Navy Lookout

We're still referring to the VARD design as an MRV though. VARD themselves call it many things. Multi-Purpose Logistics Vessel is another term.

In the same way the RN referred to Invincible, Illustrious etc as Aircraft carriers, even though they were through deck cruisers, and later on ASW carriers.

Commercial standards are common in Naval Vessels. HMS Ocean being a prime example. It greatly reduces construction cost. However the Vard design is not built as a commercial Ro-Ro. Its classification is given as:

BUREAU VERITAS (thats the classification society, like Lloyds Register, but not them BV rules apply. BV Mark painted on the loadline.)

IHULL MACH (means the Hull is classified, not the machinery, in this instance, leaving the machinery fit open to the potential customer)

RoRo Cargo Ship, (Means the design is classified for the loading and unloading of vehicles by this means, and the storage aboard as cargo, the specification of cargo doors-you'd be hard pressed to find a military classification for this that has been tested to the same intensity of commercial shipping.)

AUT-UMS, (Automated Unmanned machinery space)

AUT-CCS, (Centralised Control Station)

AUT-IMS. (Integrated Machinery systems)

Keep googling though.

TITLE OF PAPER (vardmarine.com)

Tabnabs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121482107#Comment_121482107

Vard are clear about what they call the 7-313 design, it's literally on the very first page of the document that you quote. We can put that to bed now, right?

Another quote from VARD about the 7-313 design

4.1(b) The Commercial Vessel Pedigree

The MRSS platform can be operated by a relatively small crew, often in a two-crew rotation system and, in many organizations, a civilian or hybrid civilian/military complement. Facilities for routine mission personnel, embarked as needed, to support capabilities such as helicopter operations and special forces, are also provided. Additionally, surge capability to provide hotel and support services for larger numbers, albeit in more austere accommodations, are also typically included.

Being based upon commercial ship designs, and being crewed and arranged in this manner, means that the operational availability that can be achieved is very high when compared with the maintenance, training and exercise time required to force generate a high-readiness complex military weapons platform.

These are designed, built and maintained to commercial standards and maintained in Class. If you think "cargo doors" are what defines a Ro-Ro vessel, then you need to google some more.

Dohvolle

Mention of cargo doors were merely an example of what the classification covers. I'm trying to reply for a wider audience, not just you.

sparky42

Are you really have an argument over the specs/terms/labels of a ship that we haven’t ordered yet and at the rate we are going may never order?

jonnybigwallet

Pretty serious story in today's Examiner about more Russian activity close to Cork.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121485463#Comment_121485463

The headline is slightly misleading. Its says just outside the harbour but they where outside the 12 mile limit

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-41288176.html

Dohvolle

May as well have been in the bay of biscay.

Also, the vampires served until the 1970s, replaced by fouga jets, which had the same capability.

The author may need to stop listening to tall tales told by exers after a few rockshandies.

Larbre34

Its nothing new. We know well that Russian subs and surface electronic espionage vessels are all over the maritime assets and infrastructure of this State, including shipping channels and Harbour mouths.

Anyone expressing surprise at this in the defence sector in Ireland, has no business being in the defence sector.

zone 1

goverment will say ah sure outside 12 mile limit not our problem,

roadmaster

Could be all spin i heard but the Russian Sub is connected to the story below form earlier this year so as Dohvelle said it may have being the bay of biscay.

Not sure what the examiner is at running a none story may be trying to get clicks up for the end of the year as the story has being picked up by the likes of the daily mail and other uk publcations. Either way would expect better fron the examiner

https://www.rte.ie/news/2023/0508/1382362-russian-ships-ireland/

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121490212#Comment_121490212

The "journalist" has form in this area.

Here's what many down these parts think went on. There was a Commemoration in Cobh at the weekend for the Cork Harbour tragedy, where 5 members of the Marine and Coastwatching service, predecessors of the Naval Service, died while attempting to carry out port controls on a merchant ship during the Emergency in 1942. Defence Forces veterans to pay respects in Cobh on anniversary of wartime tragedy - Cork Beo

A big exers event. This is where I believe the journo gets much of his exclusives. He supports the drinking habits of the exers while they continue telling him tall tales of things that go on over on the island of the fox.

Lost count of the number of times the parents have read a story from this guy and I've had to say "No, what actually happened is....."

His Naval exclusives usually come some days after the gathering of Ex Naval retirees that happens every month. Sometimes he gets it right, and he meets someone who has accurate information. But a lot of these lads love windups too.